When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[teresaq]

Quote:

Then he made a statement to me, which reflects very much on what we are studying, he said to me, “Are you saying to me that I have to give up 45 years of successful ministry for the Righteousness of Christ?”

i agree with this, as well as the rest of your post by sequiera, robert. i know some others do also.

but that doesnt change the fact that for some of us heaven would be "hell" if we were allowed in. certain "attitudes" would not be happy there, so if we want heaven we have to give those up....

examples would be, the person who likes his drink, smoke, drug...how would they feel never ever being able to have that?

the prideful, or angry, or whatever person, how would they feel?

so in that regard, "obedience" is essential for heaven...

if i made any sense... :)

[Robert]

You forget that we are raised with a new humanity, free from indwelling sin...i.e., our bent to self.

The new birth experience (which occurs when we accept the gospel) fits our mind for heaven, even though we might not outwardly reflect our mindset. That's the man of Romans 7 in a nutshell.

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN 3:17: Ellen White describes those who will be shaken out:

The self-deceived

The careless and indifferent

The covetous and selfish

Those who refuse to sacrifice

The worldly-minded

The compromisers

The disobedient

The jealous and faultfinding (1 T 251)

The talebearers-- those who accuse and condemn (Upward Look 122)

The superficial, conservative class (5 T 463)

Those who don't control appetite (4 T 31, 32)

Those who cause disunity (RH, June 18, 1901)

Superficial Bible students (TM 112)

Those who lose faith in the prophetic gift (3 SM 84)

Quote:

wayfinder: Amos 9:8 "Surely the eyes of the Sovereign LORD are on the sinful kingdom. I will destroy it from the face of the earth-- yet I will not totally destroy the house of Jacob," declares the LORD.

9 "For I will give the command, and I will shake the house of Israel among all the nations as grain is shaken in a sieve, and not a pebble will reach the ground.

10 All the sinners among my people will die by the sword, all those who say, 'Disaster will not overtake or meet us.

It would appear in this verse that that which is shaken out is good and that which remains in the sieve is bad i.e. stones and pebbles.

The weeds will be shaken out of the church.

Are you being shaken out?

The Shepherd's Rod & some other groups urge SDAs to get out now because, in their thinking, the 7 last plagues will fall first on SDAs who are still in the church. Are they right?

[Robert]

The Shepherd's Rod & some other groups urge SDAs to get out now because, in their thinking, the 7 last plagues will fall first on SDAs who are still in the church. Are they right?

The church is not the savior....Jesus is....The church will not even be recognizable during persecution. Too much emphasis on denominations...buildings, etc.

[wayfinder]

Isaiah 42:21 NAS

The LORD was pleased for His righteousness' sake To make the law great and glorious

Isaiah 51:7 NAS

"Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, A people in whose heart is My law ; Do not fear the reproach of man, Nor be dismayed at their revilings

Daniel 9:11 NAS

"Indeed all Israel has transgressed Your law and turned aside, not obeying Your voice ; so the curse has been poured out on us, along with the oath which is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, for we have sinned against Him.

Galatians 3:10 NAS

For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse ; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM

Isaiah 48:18 NAS

"If only you had paid attention to My commandments ! Then your well-being would have been like a river, And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

Revelation 3:21 NAS

'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne

Righteousness has never been, is not now, and will never be a gift.

Psalms 106:3 NAS

How blessed are those who keep justice, Who practice righteousness at all times !

1 John 3:10 NAS

By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious : anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Revelation 22:11 NAS

"Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong ; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy ; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness ; and the one who is holy, still keep himself

Jesus did not overcome for us, He overcame so that we could overcome. Righteousness is what we do not what we have. Laodicea had nothing, no robe, no sight, no wealth, they were wretched and poor, but they thought they were just the opposite. Jesus states "buy from Me", how does one buy if they have nothing and how does one buy that which is believed to be a gift. The currency one uses to buy, is truth, only the truth will save us.

John 3:21 NAS

"But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

John 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine ;

32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone ; how is it that You say, 'You will become free '?"

34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.

At this time we are in the Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia messages, we will soon experience the Laodicea warning.

[Robert]

truth and error mixed....

[John317]

Quote:

Robert: You forget that we are raised with a new humanity, free from indwelling sin...i.e., our bent to self.

The new birth experience (which occurs when we accept the gospel) fits our mind for heaven, even though we might not outwardly reflect our mindset. That's the man of Romans 7 in a nutshell.

Romans 7:

The man of Romans 7 is "in the flesh" and "carnal, sold under sin." v. 14.

He can't help but practice evil. v. 19 He is walking in the flesh, not in the Spirit.

Contrast the man of Romans 7 in red with the man of Romans 8 in blue:

Romans 8: 6, 13 says that to be carnally minded is death, and 8: 7 says that the carnal mind is enmity against God. The man of Romans 7 is "in the flesh" and "carnal, sold under sin." v. 14.

The Holy Spirit does not dwell in people who are carnal. 8: 9 (The man of Romans 7 is carnal.)

If we don't have the Spirit of Christ, we are not Christ's. 8: 9. (The man of Romans 7 does not have the Spirit of Christ.)

Only those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. 8:14. (The man of Romans 7 is not led by the Spirit of God.)

The man of Romans 7 can't help but practice evil. v. 19 He is walking in the flesh, not in the Spirit.

Those who are walking in the Spirit don't practice evil but they practice righteousness. They put to death the deeds of the body. These will live. Those who practice sin will die. 8: 13. (The man of Romans 7 is only practicing evil, and cannot practice righteousness.)

The righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in those who walk according to the Spirit. They are enabled to obey God. 8: 3,4. (The man of Romans 7 is not walking according to the Spirit and therefore the righteous requirement of the law is not fulfilled in him. That's the reason he can only practice evil.)

The only solution for the man of Romans 7 is genuine conversion to Christ and walking in the Spirit.

[teresaq]

You forget that we are raised with a new humanity, free from indwelling sin...i.e., our bent to self.

The new birth experience (which occurs when we accept the gospel) fits our mind for heaven, even though we might not outwardly reflect our mindset. That's the man of Romans 7 in a nutshell.

so God is going to take people to heaven who would not be happy there-and make them happy there against their wishes? or did you, perhaps, misunderstand what i was saying?

[teresaq]

The Shepherd's Rod & some other groups urge SDAs to get out now because, in their thinking, the 7 last plagues will fall first on SDAs who are still in the church. Are they right?

sorry, john but that isnt correct. the shepherds rod do not urge people to leave the sda church. they do urge people to believe their message and join it-but to stay in the church.

they dont believe the 7 seven last plagues will take out sdas, either, but the "angels" will kill off the bad sdas, then the "pure" church will continue, etc..

now there is a person that i know of that is teaching people have to leave the sda church to avoid the "slaughter"-not the 7 last plagues, that happens later- but its his adaption of the rod movement.

just for everyones "fyi".

[Guest truthseeker007]

Robert thank you for your support. At least there is one individual who has maintained his ability to reason instead of relying on EGW qoutes or their self-invented theological doctrines.

Let me put it very simple and plain for all of you. God looks at the motives of behaviour. In other words God will read our hearts and then determine whether we are fit or unfit for heaven. For instance, Jesus might look at a terrible sinner who is desparately trying to keep the law because he doesn t want to let Jesus down, but he stumbles time after time. On the other hand Jesus may behold a seventh day adventist whose sole purpose was to get to heaven. To achieve this he disciplined himself to keep the law perfectly. In fact he was so centred on the law, that he was thinking about himself all the time, he was even boasting himself in his mind, "thank you Jesus that i have not become like that terrible sinner". Outwardly this man is very holy according to SDA standards, but his inner heart is defiled with selfishness. Selfishness is the core of the principles on which lucifer started his rebellion. In other words, though this person is not aware, he has become infected with satanic principles of self-love and thereby disqualified himself from the kingdom of God, for love seeks not itself but reaches out to others.

The person that kept on sinning and hated his sins, but loved God for the right reason also looked out for others. Though he was sinning he was not self centred, for he wanted to please the lord. The will to please the Lord can only originate from genuine faith, therefore this man will be fit for heaven. Especially at the translation when the sins that run through his veins will be eradicated.

To make it very clear, don t rely on your own law-keeping, works etc. for your salvation. Rely solely on the merits of Christ for your salvation/justification. It is a 100 percent gift to those who believe! And because we love God genuinely we will keep the law and do good works, but we will not give ourselves credits for it, for it is God who writes the law on the hearts of his people and giving his faithfull ones the ability to do good works.

Of course we have free will and we should make decisions of our own which will testify of the genuinity of our faith in Christ.

[Guest]

truth and error mixed....

That would make it at least one cut above the stuff you post.

LOL

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Robert

truth and error mixed....

That would make it at least one cut above the stuff you post.

LOL

Would you even talk to "Mr Murphy" like this?

[Guest]

Yes, he can tell when I'm joking.

[Robert]

The only solution for the man of Romans 7 is genuine conversion to Christ and walking in the Spirit.

The man of Romans 7 is converted. His mind is in harmony with the principle of God's law, agape. He delights in the law of God after the inward man. That phrase, "inward man", refers only to the believer.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: John317

The only solution for the man of Romans 7 is genuine conversion to Christ and walking in the Spirit.

The man of Romans 7 is converted. His mind is in harmony with the principle of God's law, agape. He delights in the law of God after the inward man. That phrase, "inward man", refers only to the believer.

"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the LORD. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

Again, the man of Romans 7 delights in God's law according to the inward man. No longer does his mind love iniquity, but rather God's agape.

The problem is that while the Holy Spirit has changed his mind the man of Romans 7 hasn't learned that in itself the enlightened mind is no match for the law of sin - i.e., the love of self. Does that mean he is lost? No! There's no condemnation to those who are "in Christ" by faith.

[pnattmbtc]

What you wrote didn't make any sense to me. I don't know how to respond other than that.

[Guest]

The problem is that while the Holy Spirit has changed his mind the man of Romans 7 hasn't learned that in itself the enlightened mind is no match for the law of sin

So even though the mind is enlightened by the Holy Spirit, it keeps right on sinning huh? And even though the Bible plainly tells us that God will freely give the power to overcome sin, in reality He just doesn't have that kind of power.

Thank you for helping me to understand the one thing that is more powerful than God. And here I was, thinking He was all powerful.

Mat 22:29 ..You do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Jud 1:24 Now unto him who is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Rom 9:17 ..Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

[John317]

Amen!

[Robert]

What you wrote didn't make any sense to me. I don't know how to respond other than that.

Richard said that EGW didn't have any OC (legalistic) statements . I quoted one. He didn't respond. So I asked, "Cat got your tongue?" It's not that hard to comprehend.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The problem is that while the Holy Spirit has changed his mind the man of Romans 7 hasn't learned that in itself the enlightened mind is no match for the law of sin

So even though the mind is enlightened by the Holy Spirit, it keeps right on sinning huh? ....Thank you for helping me to understand the one thing that is more powerful than God. And here I was, thinking He was all powerful.

The mind, at conversion, has done a 180. Before conversion the mind and our fallen nature were in harmony. You can see this in Eph 2:3

"Among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind."

Note that the desires of the flesh and the mind are in complete harmony in the unconverted man. There's no struggle. What the flesh desires the mind desires too.

The man of Romans 7 doesn't fit within the category. Go to Romans 7:15

"I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do [genuine righteousness] I do not do, but what I hate I do."

Notice the struggle.

20 "Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I [i.e., my mind] who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."

Again, the same idea is present. His mind doesn't want the same thing that his nature desires. They are not in harmony. This is the sign of a converted, saved man. Let's read on:

21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, sin is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being [my conscience, my inner mind, my heart] I delight in God's law ; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

The issue with the man of Romans 7 is that he hasn't learned that when "the law of sin" wants its way he cannot defeat its desires with his converted mind. He must give the flesh over to God and then God can do what the converted mind cannot do, that is, say "no" to the desires of the flesh.

Yes, God's Spirit is more powerful than our human nature, but God has to have permission minute by minute if we are to experience genuine good works.

Ellen White says it well:

"You desire to give yourself to Him, but you are weak in moral power, in slavery to doubt, and controlled by the habits of

your life of sin. Your promises and resolutions are like ropes of sand. You cannot control your thoughts, your impulses, your affections."

Wow, that sounds like the man of Romans 7, huh? Then how does one experience growth? Let's read on:

"You can give Him your will [i.e., your will power....your desires to live for God]; He will then work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. Thus your whole nature will be brought under the control of the Spirit of Christ...." [sC 47]

[Maschil]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

This one proves my point. Since God said his hand would be against the false prophets, and that they would have no place in the counsel of his people, or be written down, it would be absurd then to think that God would turn around and allow them to be included in his Word, the Holy Bible.

Such an excellent point.

[Guest]

Thank you Akintunde.

[skyblue888]

The man of Romans 7 is only converted intellectually. Spiritually he is still a slave to sin for he sins against his own will. He does not know how to look and live, not yet. The will not to sin is not lacking but how to do good he does not know. He does what he hates and he hates what he does. Such a man must learn to rely solely upon the merits of Christ's sacrifice in order to be enabled to overcome through the Holy Spirit's power. Then every command is a promise of its own fulfilment.

sky

[John317]

The man of Romans 7 is only converted intellectually. Spiritually he is still a slave to sin for he sins against his own will. He does not know how to look and live, not yet. The will not to sin is not lacking but how to do good he does not know.

We're in essential agreement here, sky. I don't think Paul is describing a man who has been regenerated or truly converted to Christ. He obviously is not walking in the Spirit but in the flesh.

In a sense it doesn't matter whether he is justified or not. The point is that he's still a slave to sin. He hasn't learned to look away from self-- to die to self and sin-- and to look to Christ. All of us can fall into that situation, where we are trying to do God's will on our own and apart from the power of the Holy Spirit. I think that's the essential difference between living under the Old Covenant and living under the New. Whenever we try to serve God on our own, in the flesh, we are doomed to serve the devil. Only God living within us-- and our constantly choosing to submit our will to His will-- can bring us into harmony with God.

[skyblue888]

As E.J. Waggoner put it, "In the latter part of the chapter, the apostle shows what that oldness of the letter is from which we must be delivered. 'I am carnal, sold under sin.' We do great violence to the apostle Paul, that holy man, when we say that in this he is relating his own Christian experience. He is not writing his own experience now that he is united with Christ. He is writing the experience of those who serve, but in the oldness of the letter, and while professedly serving God, are carnal, and sold under sin.

A person sold under bondage is a slave. What is the evidence of this slavery? 'For what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I... For the good that I would, I do not; but the evil which I would not, that I do.' Have we ever had any such experience as that in our so-called Christian experience? Yes; we have fought, but with all our fighting, did we keep the law? No, we have made a failure, and it is written upon every page of our lives. It is a constant service, but at the same time it is a constant failure.

I fall. I make a new resolution,--I break it, and then I get discouraged, then make a new resolution, and break it again. We cannot make ourselves do the thing we want to do by making a resolution. We do not want to sin, but we do sin all the time. We make up our minds we will not fall under that temptation again, and we don't--till the next time it comes up, and then we fall as before.

When in this condition, can we say that we have hope, and that we 'rejoice in hope of the glory of God'? We do not hear such testimonies,--it is solely of what we want to do, and what we have failed to do, but intend to do in the future. If a person has the law before him, and acknowledges that it is good, and yet does not keep its precepts, is his sin less in the sight of God than the sin of the man who cares nothing for the law? No.

What is the difference between the would-be Christian, who knows the law, but does not keep it, and the worldling who does not keep the law, and does not acknowledge that it is good? Simply this: We are unwilling slaves, and they are willing slaves. We are all the time distracted and sorrowful, and getting nothing out of life at all, while the worldling does not worry himself in the least.

If one is going to sin, is it not better to be the worldling, who does not know that there is such a thing as liberty, than to be the man who knows that there is liberty, but cannot get it? If it has got to be slavery, if we must live in the sins of the world, then it is better to be in the world, partaking of its pleasures, than to be in a miserable bondage, and have no hope of a life to come." E.G. Waggoner, Bible Studies on the Book of Romans, p.53,54.

sky