When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[pnattmbtc]

The believer's confidence is grounded in his relationship with Christ as he sees the proofs that Christ and the Holy Spirit are in His life.

I would say this a bit differently. The believer's confidence is grounded on the character of God.

It's certainly true that our experience will reflect whether or not we know God. But our experience can't be the grounds for our confidence.

[pnattmbtc]

Let us not allow "fear of legalism" to develop into a downplaying of obedience or of faith. Rather than speaking of "righteousness by faith" which, by now, has lost all meaning, let us promote "obedience by faith."

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Intelligent assent without experience is the greatest sin of both liberals and conservatives in my mind.

Ye have not because ye ask not.

The forensic legalist doesn't ask because he thinks he's already got it.

The do-it-yourself legalist doesn't think to ask because he's so busy working for it.

James tells us how to ask - in faith, nothing wavering.

Lack of faith would seem to be the issue.

Jesus often highlighted this.

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

The forensic legalist doesn't ask because he thinks he's already got it.

"Forensic legalist" is a nice term.

The forensic mentality has a lot of problems, the most important of which being the conception of God's character it leads to. Salvation becomes something solved by something akin to a magician's trick as opposed to solving a real issue that a person has in his heart and mind.

[karl]

The forensic mentality has a lot of problems, the most important of which being the conception of God's character it leads to. Salvation becomes something solved by something akin to a magician's trick as opposed to solving a real issue that a person has in his heart and mind.

AMEN

[John317]

Quote:

Twilight:

Obedience is the only real fruit of an individual who has accepted the Merits of Christ... :-)

If no obedience is evidenced, then the merits have not been applied at all.

They are like a poem in a book on a dusty old bookshelf.

Some want to build up a library of "no responsibility", but that is not biblical.

God wants to write in our hearts, not just in our minds.

One is intelligent assent the other is experience.

Intelligent assent without experience is the greatest sin of both liberals and conservatives in my mind.

I like that!!! Great points, Mark.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: karl

The forensic legalist doesn't ask because he thinks he's already got it.

"Forensic legalist" is a nice term.

The forensic mentality has a lot of problems, the most important of which being the conception of God's character it leads to. Salvation becomes something solved by something akin to a magician's trick as opposed to solving a real issue that a person has in his heart and mind.

Indeed.

They are looking for some way to remove or absolve themselves of any responsibility.

Number of possible reasons:

1. They have not learned to receive Grace by Faith, and therefore through discouragement decided they "cannot do it".

2. They enjoy their sin too much and do not want to let go of it.

3. They have been taught this and have never heard anything else.

4. They think that this is legalism, mistakenly.

Mark

[Overaged]

Let us not allow "fear of legalism" to develop into a downplaying of obedience or of faith. Rather than speaking of "righteousness by faith" which, by now, has lost all meaning, let us promote "obedience by faith."

No one is showing here any "fear of legalism." But then why would we not want to be afraid of it?

What is called "downplaying of obedience" sounds good to those who want to make obedience what it is not; but the real danger here is saying that obedience gives us some merit before Christ. It doesn't do that, it never did and it never will. It's not downplaying obedience to acknowledge this.

Obedience may not in fact help us to know if we love Jesus, for there are many who "obey" yet the Savior will have to utter those dreadful words in the end: "Depart from me; I never knew you."

When we look at other scripture, as it relates to KNOWING if we love God and walk with Him - we tend to cherry pick our favorite obedience proof texts; but we also tend to ignore other texts which say things like:

1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

So here we are shown that it is much more than obedience that shows evidence that we "have life." I would challenge people here to examine what the Bible means here by "have the Son." What does it mean when we say we "have the Son of God?" Obedience, something like faith, is one of the possible evidences; but it is NEVER alone, and it never earns us even an grain of merit before Christ. (see Luke 17:10).

If you don't "have the Son;" then all the "obedience" in the world isn't going to help you or anyone else. If you don't "have the Son;" then it will be impossible for your character to come anywhere near to being "perfectly reproduced" in Christ's image.

[karl]

"If you don't "have the Son;" then all the "obedience" in the world isn't going to help you or anyone else. If you don't "have the Son;" then it will be impossible for your character to come anywhere near to being "perfectly reproduced" in Christ's image."

Do you believe that you can have the Son and NOT have obedience?

Do you believe that a relationship with Christ is POSSIBLE without obedience?

"This is the work of God that ye believe on Him Who He hath sent." Believing in Christ is not disobedience. It is obedience.

"Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness." Why? Because believing in God IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: karl

Let us not allow "fear of legalism" to develop into a downplaying of obedience or of faith. Rather than speaking of "righteousness by faith" which, by now, has lost all meaning, let us promote "obedience by faith."

No one is showing here any "fear of legalism." But then why would we not want to be afraid of it?

What is called "downplaying of obedience" sounds good to those who want to make obedience what it is not; but the real danger here is saying that obedience gives us some merit before Christ. It doesn't do that, it never did and it never will. It's not downplaying obedience to acknowledge this.

Obedience may not in fact help us to know if we love Jesus, for there are many who "obey" yet the Savior will have to utter those dreadful words in the end: "Depart from me; I never knew you."

When we look at other scripture, as it relates to KNOWING if we love God and walk with Him - we tend to cherry pick our favorite obedience proof texts; but we also tend to ignore other texts which say things like:

1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

So here we are shown that it is much more than obedience that shows evidence that we "have life." I would challenge people here to examine what the Bible means here by "have the Son." What does it mean when we say we "have the Son of God?" Obedience, something like faith, is one of the possible evidences; but it is NEVER alone, and it never earns us even an grain of merit before Christ. (see Luke 17:10).

If you don't "have the Son;" then all the "obedience" in the world isn't going to help you or anyone else. If you don't "have the Son;" then it will be impossible for your character to come anywhere near to being "perfectly reproduced" in Christ's image.

Knowing God (the indwelling of the Holy Spirit), is the only means by which obedience can be rendered.

If we have not entered into this walk of obedience, we have not understood the gospel.

[Overaged]

"If you don't "have the Son;" then all the "obedience" in the world isn't going to help you or anyone else. If you don't "have the Son;" then it will be impossible for your character to come anywhere near to being "perfectly reproduced" in Christ's image."

Do you believe that you can have the Son and NOT have obedience?

Do you believe that a relationship with Christ is POSSIBLE without obedience?

"This is the work of God that ye believe on Him Who He hath sent." Believing in Christ is not disobedience. It is obedience.

"Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness." Why? Because believing in God IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

He [Nicodemus] saw that the most rigid obedience to the mere letter of the law as applied to the outward life could entitle no man to enter the kingdom of heaven. In the estimation of men, his life had been just and honorable; but in the presence of Christ he felt that his heart was unclean, and his life unholy. . . . As the Saviour explained to him concerning the new birth, he longed to have this change wrought in himself. . . . Jesus answered the unspoken question: "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." . . . {CC 293.3}

[karl]

Although it seems to be related, your answer above is actually a non-sequitur. You are saying it is possible to be 'blameless, touching the law" without knowing Christ. I grant that. But that is irrelevant to my comment.

What I am saying is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a saving relationship with Christ and yet be willfully disobedient to Him. Obedience cannot be separated from Christ. Christ cannot be separated from obedience.

[pnattmbtc]

What I am saying is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a saving relationship with Christ and yet be willfully disobedient to Him. Obedience cannot be separated from Christ. Christ cannot be separated from obedience.

It might be worthwhile to define what we mean by obedience. Nicodemus was not obedient before having a relationship with Christ, and neither was Paul. When Paul said he was blameless as touching the law, he meant to an outside observer, to one looking only at the exterior. But he knew he wasn't really obedient to the law, which Romans 7 brings out, because inwardly he hadn't been converted. It was for this reason that the law regarding coveting convicted him. That's not a commandment which can be kept outwardly; it's purely an inward thing, and Paul knew he was guilty of it.

Anyway, good points. I can't help but thinking of things forensically confuses the issues, and may be behind some of the discussion here. If we think the issue is primarily forensic, then it's really important to emphasize that we do not gain merit by the things we do. However, if we do not perceive the issue to be forensic, this isn't even an issue.

[karl]

True obedience starts when we respond to Christ's wooing. We accept the invitation. We believe He loves us. We open to His knock. We submit to Him as Lord and Master. We confess that we CANNOT do anything of value without Him. These are acts of obedience - of the most important kind.

[pnattmbtc]

True obedience starts when we respond to Christ's wooing. We accept the invitation. We believe He loves us. We open to His knock. We submit to Him as Lord and Master. We confess that we CANNOT do anything of value without Him. These are acts of obedience - of the most important kind.

Sounds good. The goodness of God leads us to repentance.

[Overaged]

Although it seems to be related, your answer above is actually a non-sequitur. You are saying it is possible to be 'blameless, touching the law" without knowing Christ. I grant that. But that is irrelevant to my comment.

What I am saying is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a saving relationship with Christ and yet be willfully disobedient to Him. Obedience cannot be separated from Christ. Christ cannot be separated from obedience.

Well; again, this sounds good, at first. But it's not the "obedience" that makes a "saving relationship" with Christ; any "obedience" would simply be a result thereof. People need to stop putting the cart before the horse here.

[pnattmbtc]

k:What I am saying is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a saving relationship with Christ and yet be willfully disobedient to Him. Obedience cannot be separated from Christ. Christ cannot be separated from obedience.

O:Well; again, this sounds good, at first.

[Overaged]

Quote:

But it's not the "obedience" that makes a "saving relationship" with Christ;

This wasn't stated. What was stated is that it is impossible to have a saving relationship with

For example, if I said, "It's impossible for a number multiplied by 4 to be a prime number" it doesn't follow from this that numbers not divisible by 4 are prime numbers, which is similar to your reasoning.

Well, your "math" is good, but as far as I can see here, my statement still stands. "It's not the "obedience" that makes a saving relationship with Christ. Obedience is a response to Him. What many call "obedience," is not in fact that at all. You can't put the cart before the horse.

[karl]

"It's not the "obedience" that makes a saving relationship with Christ. Obedience is a response to Him.

It is true that obedience is a response to Christ. It is not true that this response to Christ is not essential to salvation.

You can't have it both ways. A saving relationship is either something we participate in voluntarily, or it is something imposed upon us.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

"It's not the "obedience" that makes a saving relationship with Christ. Obedience is a response to Him.

It is true that obedience is a response to Christ. It is not true that this response to Christ is not essential to salvation.

You can't have it both ways. A saving relationship is either something we participate in voluntarily, or it is something imposed upon us.

Indeed, there is our part and Gods part.

It seems that as soon as someone talks about "our part", the cry of legalism goes up.

Consider this:

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

In one instance we have to do the work, in another God does it.

A contradiction?

Not at all.

We have a part and God has a part in our salvation.

When we understand that, we can move forward.

But either extreme of us doing it all, or God doing it all, will result in failure in the Christian walk.

[karl]

We have a part and God has a part in our salvation.

When we understand that, we can move forward.

But either extreme of us doing it all, or God doing it all, will result in failure in the Christian walk.

Agreed.

God is not cooking the books. He is making friends.

[pnattmbtc]

Well, your "math" is good, but as far as I can see here, my statement still stands.

[pnattmbtc]

We have a part and God has a part in our salvation.

[karl]

God has a work to do, which is to expel sin from our heart by His love, changing our pride into humility, and our enmity and unbelief into love and faith. We have a part to play as well, which is to not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace.

The way this is often presented by the anti-legalist proponents one could easily get the idea that everyone will be saved if they can just keep from doing the wrong thing (avoid resisting.)

How is this position any different from the legalist position which is that if we can just keep from doing the wrong thing(s) (breaking the commandments) we will be saved?

Is it the avoidance of a negative that saves us? Or is it the embracing of a positive? I think salvation must be positively grasped. Admittedly, this is only a response to God's great love and sacrifice, but it is still an active response on our parts rather than a passive avoidance of of a non-response.

[Twilight]

God has a work to do, which is to expel sin from our heart by His love, changing our pride into humility, and our enmity and unbelief into love and faith. We have a part to play as well, which is to not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace.

That indeed is one part of Gods work.

Removal of sin.

The other part is the impartation of righteousness.

God promised to take our stony heart and give us a heart of flesh.

Two processes. :-)

But the conditions for the cleansing of sin is very simple.

We have to "confess" ours sins when convicted.

Then God removes them.

Mark