When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[Overaged]

quote=John317]Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. /quote]

Legalism!!!

"My heart is thrilled when'er I think of Heaven's glory fair

And all the countless blessings that the Saints redeemed shall share."

To want to be with God is not "legalism." His people will be REDEEMED, meaning "perfectly reproduced" in His image; and that is not legalism either.

[Robert]

To want to be with God is not "legalism."

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

To want to be with God is not "legalism."

Based on your performance?

Quote:

His people will be REDEEMED, meaning "perfectly reproduced" in His image; and that is not legalism either.

The part I'm against is as follows: "must be purified from sin"

That's salvation by works, which is heresy.

It depends on how you look at it though. "Must be purified from sin" does not say that it is something we do; but something that Jesus does.

[Robert]

"Must be purified from sin" does not say that it is something we do; but something that Jesus does.

In order to be saved?

[John317]

What is Christ waiting for?

Do the following verses offer us the answer:

Jesus comes when the harvest of the earth is ripe. Rev. 14: 18.

Rev. 14: 6-11 speaks of 3 messages that will be proclaimed in all the earth and these will result in a people who "keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." It doesn't say they try to keep the commandments but that they do keep God's commandments.

The 144, 000, who will live during the time just before Christ returns, have no lie in their mouth and they are blameless before the throne of God. They are completely loyal to God and to His commandments, refusing to defile themselves with false doctrines. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Rev. 14: 1-5.

Notice also that Jesus comes after it is announced that the bride of Christ has made herself ready and is dressed in her righteous robes of character, made white in the blood of the Lamb. God's name, or character, will be in their foreheads. Rev. 19: 7,8; 7: 14; 22: 14, 4; cf. Heb. 10: 15, 22.

This is what Christ is waiting for, isn't it? He's waiting to see His character reflected in those who claim to belong to Him. As Jesus promised, "To those who overcome I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and am sat down with my Father on His throne." Rev. 3: 21.

[John317]

Quote:

carole10:The Bible says somewhere that "This gospel of the kingdom whall be preached in all the world to a witness unto all nations and then shall the end come".

What is the gospel? Doesn't the Bible say the gospel is the power of God unto salvation? Rom. 1: 16. Salvation means "healing." The gospel that will be preached, and which results in Christ's return, will give proof to the whole universe of the power of God to heal us from sin. It's a dynamic gospel which will demonstrate the truth of Romans 6 and 8.

[karl]

You mean it's a Gospel of God's power to create in each believer a clean heart? A life transformed by the creative Word of God? Not a gospel of evolution? Not a gospel of collective goodness? Not a gospel of social whatever?

Do you mean that believers will actually keep God's judgments and do them? (Ezekiel 36:27)

Wow. To God be the glory.

[Robert]

Quote:

carole10:The Bible says somewhere that "This gospel of the kingdom whall be preached in all the world to a witness unto all nations and then shall the end come".

What is the gospel? Doesn't the Bible say the gospel is the power of God unto salvation? Rom. 1: 16. Salvation means "healing." The gospel that will be preached, and which results in Christ's return, will give proof to the whole universe of the power of God to heal us from sin. It's a dynamic gospel which will demonstrate the truth of Romans 6 and 8.

Context: Romans 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The just by faith shall live."

While believers do grow that is not what saves. Yes, to an extent it gives witness to one's faith, but only the law demands perfection:

Gal 3:11 Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, "The just by faith shall live."; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them [keeps the whole of the law] shall by them live.

You see the gospel brings life by faith. If you want life any other way then you must keep the law to live.

Rom 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will by these live." 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: ...9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is LORD," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

[Robert]

Do you mean that believers will actually keep God's judgments and do them? (Ezekiel 36:27)

Not while you are in your cozy home competing against others to get that green stuff in the bank. All worldly associations must be severed, or as EGW states, "Their earthliness [worldly associations/dealings] must be removed that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected.” [4SP 438]

This is the part most of you guys keep ignoring:

Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

And, I might add, "Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system", Capitalism, socialism, communism or any other "ism" is based on Lucifer's love of self.

Most of us operate under "Capitalism". Is it born of heaven? That's the question. Well, what does the Bible say of the world? “All that is in the world” is based on our bent-to-self (iniquity).

What is Capitalism?

"Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production are privately owned; supply, demand, price, distribution, and investments are determined mainly by private decisions and market forces rather than through a planned economy; and profit is distributed to owners who invest in businesses. Capitalism also refers to the process of capital accumulation."

Now notice heaven's method of gaining wealth. It does not come by self-seeking, which is Lucifer's invention:

"You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth."

Here we seek our own, then maybe we help others. That's sin.

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure [i.e., own way]; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them."

In heaven our ambition is to put others first. In fact we will never put ourselves first, but instead our desire is for the prosperity of those around us and they us....

Anything outside of the above is sin. If we are to perfectly reflect Christ He must server all worldly attachments. This will happen after the gospel is fully restored and preached.

[Robert]

If we are to perfectly reflect Christ He must server all worldly attachments. This will happen after the gospel is fully restored and preached.

Rev 13:16 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

After the gospel is restored it will cause a shaking...a division in the world. Those under the camp of justification by faith and those under the camp of salvation by works will be at odds. The latter will persecute the former. At that time those who are under the banner of Christ our righteousness will have to make a choice: salvation by works (and the means to keep on keeping on) or poverty. Those who keep their faith in Christ's righteousness will be cutoff from all earthly attachments. Now they are totally depending on God for everything. Since they are now fully surrendered to God He can work in them to fully reflect the selfless agape of Christ.

[Overaged]

Robert; faith is not our Savior - Jesus is. (John 1:29). It is only by the shed blood of Christ that we are saved. Quoting Romans won't change that. The context of the faith by which we live is different than the blood of Christ by which we are saved; for the "faith" has an object, and that object is Christ. Faith is the "hand" by which we access Christ. Even when we come to Christ to "confess" we can only have this right and privilege because of His blood shed for us. (Heb 10:19).

Quote:

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

The only reason any of us have anything or do anything in this life is because of His life - literally given for us. There is nothing in Romans or any other book of the Bible that can argue against this "everlasting gospel" spoken of in the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

According to heb 10:25, I am off to Church! "See ya'll" later!

[Robert]

Yes, I know....Preaching to the choir. Faith is only a tool....I can have faith in myself...faith in the law...my good deeds....My faith is in Jesus....

[Guest]

You mean it's a Gospel of God's power to create in each believer a clean heart? A life transformed by the creative Word of God? Not a gospel of evolution? Not a gospel of collective goodness? Not a gospel of social whatever?

Do you mean that believers will actually keep God's judgments and do them? (Ezekiel 36:27)

Wow. To God be the glory.

To God be the glory, forever and ever. Amen.

[Guest]

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

The only reason any of us have anything or do anything in this life is because of His life - literally given for us. There is nothing in Romans or any other book of the Bible that can argue against this "everlasting gospel" spoken of in the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

According to heb 10:25, I am off to Church! "See ya'll" later!

Amen. On this grand and glorious Sabbath Day. It is a sign between Him and us, that HE is the one who sanctifies us. Which is the power to live righteously before the throne of God.

Eze 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctifies them.

Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Tit 2:11,12 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live sensibly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

And O/A, I didn't know ya'll were allowed to use that word up there in Canada. The world is smaller than I thought.

[Robert]

Eze 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctifies them..

You do realize that sanctification is an ongoing process, right? It is always incomplete because you are always growing. Therefore it can't be a sign of the Sabbath because the Sabbath ALWAYS points to a finished work.

Two clear examples:

1] Creation, which was ruined by the fall

and

2] redemption

The Sabbath of Eze 20 refers to being set apart...I am the Lord who sets them apart. In Christ we have salvation...the Sabbath is a sign of that. The Sabbath always points to a finished work.

Again, at creation it symbolized a perfect & complete creation. The world...humanity, stood perfect. That was ruined by the fall.

Therefore the only reason for NT Sabbath keeping is as a sign of redemption.

After we are taken to heaven the Sabbath meaning will change again from a perfect redemption in Christ to a perfect recreation or glorification.

[Guest]

What is Christ waiting for?

Do the following verses offer us the answer:

Jesus comes when the harvest of the earth is ripe. Rev. 14: 18.

Rev. 14: 6-11 speaks of 3 messages that will be proclaimed in all the earth and these will result in a people who "keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." It doesn't say they try to keep the commandments but that they do keep God's commandments.

The 144, 000, who will live during the time just before Christ returns, have no lie in their mouth and they are blameless before the throne of God. They are completely loyal to God and to His commandments, refusing to defile themselves with false doctrines. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Rev. 14: 1-5.

Notice also that Jesus comes after it is announced that the bride of Christ has made herself ready and is dressed in her righteous robes of character, made white in the blood of the Lamb. God's name, or character, will be in their foreheads. Rev. 19: 7,8; 7: 14; 22: 14, 4; cf. Heb. 10: 15, 22.

This is what Christ is waiting for, isn't it? He's waiting to see His character reflected in those who claim to belong to Him. As Jesus promised, "To those who overcome I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and am sat down with my Father on His throne." Rev. 3: 21.

This is good John. And:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

[Overaged]

And O/A, I didn't know ya'll were allowed to use that word up there in Canada. The world is smaller than I thought.

LOL, Y'all didn't know that, EH?

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Eze 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctifies them..

You do realize that sanctification is an ongoing process, right? It is always incomplete because you are always growing. Therefore it can't be a sign of the Sabbath because the Sabbath ALWAYS points to a finished work.

The "growth" (2 Pet 3:18) is always "complete" at each stage thereof. Jesus doesn't do second class work, whether or not all stages of it are finished or not.

[Robert]

The "growth" (2 Pet 3:18) is always "complete" at each stage thereof. Jesus doesn't do second class work, whether or not all stages of it are finished or not.

No, the work is always unfinished....We are not perfect at each stage....IF we were then why would Christ continue?

BTW, Jesus doesn't work in you to save you....You have that already in the doing and dying of Christ. Christ work in you is to attract others to Him and to free you from your besetting sins. His work is always unfinished because of the weakness of our flesh.....We do not fully surrender...we still retain our bent-to-self.

[Robert]

So the Sabbath can never point to what Christ does in us....That work, while it's good news, doesn't answer the law of God. The law demands that one live Christ's life of agape. Anything short of that brings the curse of God...which is God abandonment.

Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

[Twilight]

Quote:

carole10:The Bible says somewhere that "This gospel of the kingdom whall be preached in all the world to a witness unto all nations and then shall the end come".

What is the gospel? Doesn't the Bible say the gospel is the power of God unto salvation? Rom. 1: 16. Salvation means "healing." The gospel that will be preached, and which results in Christ's return, will give proof to the whole universe of the power of God to heal us from sin. It's a dynamic gospel which will demonstrate the truth of Romans 6 and 8.

Amen.

[John317]

Quote:

Richard Holbrook: This is good John. And:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Yes, that's so important to keep in mind because we live at a time when the popular gospel is that we can't obey God's will anyway and that faith in Christ makes it unnecessary.

SDAs who study and accept the Investigative Judgment won't ever accept such a false teaching.

[John317]

Quote:

John317:

What is the gospel? Doesn't the Bible say the gospel is the power of God unto salvation? Rom. 1: 16. Salvation means "healing." The gospel that will be preached, and which results in Christ's return, will give proof to the whole universe of the power of God to heal us from sin. It's a dynamic gospel which will demonstrate the truth of Romans 6 and 8.

Quote:

Twilight]Amen.

As I was studying Daniel 7 & 8 lately, it occurred to me that the doctrines of the man of sin have entered into the SDA church in the same way that the little horn power influenced the early church. These false teachings have caused many Seventh-day Adventists to give up the belief that Christ's work in heaven as our High Priest empowers us to obey Christ.

Amazingly, the very people whom God raised up to give the world the good news of the Investigative Judgment and to show forth Christ's power as the believer's High Priest are participating in the stomping of this truth into the ground. Daniel 8: 11, 12. SDAs do that when they criticize the doctrine and teach others to reject it. Even most of our SDA ministers seldom teach or preach it nowadays.

[Twilight]

Quote:

John317:

What is the gospel? Doesn't the Bible say the gospel is the power of God unto salvation? Rom. 1: 16. Salvation means "healing." The gospel that will be preached, and which results in Christ's return, will give proof to the whole universe of the power of God to heal us from sin. It's a dynamic gospel which will demonstrate the truth of Romans 6 and 8.

Quote:

Twilight]Amen.

As I was studying Daniel 7 & 8 lately, it occurred to me that the doctrines of the man of sin have entered into the SDA church in the same way that the little horn power influenced the early church. These false teachings have caused many Seventh-day Adventists to give up the belief that Christ's work in heaven as our High Priest empowers us to obey Christ.

Amazingly, the very people whom God raised up to give the world the good news of the Investigative Judgment and to show forth Christ's power as the believer's High Priest are participating in the stomping of this truth into the ground. Daniel 8: 11, 12. SDAs do that when they criticize the doctrine and teach others to reject it. Even most of our SDA ministers seldom teach or preach it nowadays.

Pop into the other thread on cleansing from sin John.

I am hoping we can deal with this issue there. :-)

Biblically of course. :-)

Mark

[Overaged]

Quote:

Richard Holbrook: This is good John. And:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Yes, that's so important to keep in mind because we live at a time when the popular gospel is that we can't obey God's will anyway and that faith in Christ makes it unnecessary.

SDAs who study and accept the Investigative Judgment won't ever accept such a false teaching.

I am a strong supporter of this doctrine; but I have to say there are Christians of other pursuasions who would never say "we cannot obey God."