When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[Guest]

Good question pnatt. And you're right, it can be shown that EGW never believed in legalism.

[Guest]

No, Robert. That is not legalism -- that is, not unless you personally make it legalism! That is done when you say (or think in your heart) "Oh well, I guess I HAVE to do that so I don't get burned up. What a pest!"

"When the sinner believes that Christ is his personal Saviour, then, according to His unfailing promises, God pardens his sin, and justifies him freely. The repentant soul realizes that his justification comes because Christ, as his substitute and surety, has died for him, as his atonement and righteousness." EGW. Review and Herald, Nov. 4, 1890.

Our belief in this has not changed. The price has been paid. It is over to you and me as to whether we accept it.

God bless,

Beryl

Amen

[Guest truthseeker007]

yes, and i can quote lots of guotes too from Ellen White concercning the investigative judgement where she emphasis that we should be spotless in this ICJ. You have elevated Ellen White to the position of biblical writers. I don t believe in an IJ, nor do i believe in legalism. You give her a position contrary to her will. Ahh well i geuss it s hopeless, you have lost your reason. You have become cult-like puppets, not able to give critical reflections. You are not open, because the whole SDA church is inherently inconsistent. Satan feels comforted because he knows that the church in its current state can never proclaim an everlasting gospel. You don t understand the gospel! Well fortunately for you guys there will come a time when the truth will be told to the SDA church and the movement will do the work that it is supposed to do. There will be a great shaking, and then those that felt comfortable with legalism etc. will be the first to depart the movement. Because you never had a desire to know the gospel, nor the truth. You rather wanted to invent your own theology which elevates your position to others, because you are dilluded that the truth makes you better than anyone else. You think you are so rich, but you are poor. But there is no means debating you, because you say that you can see whereas you are blind.

[Robert]

Good question pnatt. And you're right, it can be shown that EGW never believed in legalism.

Here's your "never"!

PC- RH

PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

DT- 05-07-01

AT- The Great Standard of Righteousness

PR- 09

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty.

[Overaged]

yes, and i can quote lots of guotes too from Ellen White concercning the investigative judgement where she emphasis that we should be spotless in this ICJ. You have elevated Ellen White to the position of biblical writers. I don t believe in an IJ, nor do i believe in legalism. You give her a position contrary to her will. Ahh well i geuss it s hopeless, you have lost your reason. You have become cult-like puppets, not able to give critical reflections. You are not open, because the whole SDA church is inherently inconsistent. [

[antcreations]

Quote:

He thinks of them in terms of just two groups—those who are seeking after Him and would understand Him, and those who are not interested in Him, not seeking after Him, and do not care to understand Him.

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left." Matthew 25:31-46

[Guest]

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left." Matthew 25:31-46

http://www.flickr.com/photos/antcreations/

I see you have some great photography ant. Perhaps I could persuade you to post some of it here:

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/372888/1.html

[Guest]

There will be a great shaking, and then those that felt comfortable with legalism etc. will be the first to depart the movement.

No, the first to depart will be those who have tossed aside the investigative judgment, the Sanctuary truth, and other truths that we have been given. In fact you have already departed.

Rom 14:10 ...for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that everyone may be recompensed for the things done in his body, according to what he has done, whether it be good or bad.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begins with us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

2Pe 2:9 The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which now are, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment has come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:

This is the investigative judgment. Just saying you don't believe in it, does not make it go away.

___________________________________________________________

Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, For two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

The Lord sees a soul wandering in darkness, and in his love and pity he sends to him a message, which, if received, will serve to bring him to the light; but if the message is rejected, the soul goes on in darkness more dense than before. Now is the accepted time, now is the day of salvation. {RH, March 14, 1893 par. 14}

At this time many efforts will be made to unsettle our faith in the sanctuary question, but we must not waver. Not a pin is to be moved from the foundations of our faith. Truth is still truth. Those who become uncertain will drift into erroneous theories and will finally find themselves infidel in regard to the past evidence we have had of what is truth. The old waymarks must be preserved, that we lose not our bearings.--Letter 395, 1906, p. 4.

The truth is the same as it ever has been, and not a pin or a pillar can be moved from the structure of truth. That which was sought for out of the Word in 1844, 1845, and 1846 remains the truth in every particular. {Letter 38, 1906, pp. 1, 2.}

I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen, and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this will cause a shaking among God's people.--1T 181 (1857). {LDE 175.3}

Rom 9:27 ...Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

We tried to call up our greatest trials, but they looked so small compared with the far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory that surrounded us that we could not speak them out, and we all cried out, "Alleluia, heaven is cheap enough!" {EW 17}

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Good question pnatt. And you're right, it can be shown that EGW never believed in legalism.

Here's your "never"!

PC- RH

PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

DT- 05-07-01

AT- The Great Standard of Righteousness

PR- 09

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty.

Yes? Cat got your tongue?

Rob

[Guest]

If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting over questions and disputes of words, out of which comes envy, strife, railings, evil suspicions, Perverse wranglings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw yourself. 1Tim 6:3-5

You deny the power of God to do right.

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: truthseeker007

There will be a great shaking, and then those that felt comfortable with legalism etc. will be the first to depart the movement.

No, the first to depart will be those who have tossed aside the investigative judgment, the Sanctuary truth, and other truths that we have been given. In fact you have already departed.

No, truthseeker007 is right on the money. The shaking will be over the legalism/self-righteousness:

Self-righteousness is not the wedding garment. A failure to follow the clear light of truth is our fearful danger. The message to the Laodicean church reveals our condition as a people. [RH 12-15-1904]

Note, this was after the 1888 GC....Legalism still prevailed.

Here's what will cause the shaking:

-BC- EW

-TI- Early Writings of Ellen G. White

-CN- 3

-CT- Spiritual Gifts

-PR- 02

-PG- 270

I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this is what will cause a shaking among God’s people.

This is directly linked to Rev chapter 3. Here's the context:

14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. 15 I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

Now listen to how Laodicea brags: 17 You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.

Repent from what? Look at the context!!! From self-righteousness!!!!

[Robert]

Hey bubba...

You said EGW didn't present legalism, i.e., OC stuff....I gave you a reference....I can supply many more. There's your proof. Read and weep.

[Robert]

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

[Overaged]

Where have some of you characters been lately? The "shaking" has been going on for a while now.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

This is speaking of legalists....They look all holy on the outside, but inside they are fully of dead men's bones....

I am just stepping out to go to the dentist's for some major surgery. It sounds like it will be more fun than this.

[John317]

Quote:

Overaged: The "shaking" has been going on for a while now.

Yes, the skaking has been going on since the establishment of the SDA church and even before. But the shaking will continue to intensify in order to cleanse the church. God will finally cleanse His church of all its defilement, just as He cleansed the temple in Jerusalem.

There's an excellect book on it, The Shaking Among God's People, written by Keavin Hayden.

He shows that the shaking results from

The sifting of temptation

Worldliness

Prosperity and Adversity

False Theories

The Straight Testimony

Persecution and the Sunday Law Crisis

Ellen White describes those who will be shaken out:

The self-deceived

The careless and indifferent

The covetous and selfish

Those who refuse to sacrifice

The worldly-minded

The compromisers

The disobedient

The jealous and faultfinding (1 T 251)

The talebearers-- those who accuse and condemn (Upward Look 122)

The superficial, conservative class (5 T 463)

Those who don't control appetite (4 T 31, 32)

Those who cause disunity (RH, June 18, 1901)

Superficial Bible students (TM 112)

Those who lose faith in the prophetic gift (3 SM 84)

[teresaq]

Overaged why do you pervert the gospel by suggesting we have to become perfect according to the law in order to be saved? Do you really rely on your law keeping for salvation? woe to those who take two sentences from the bible totally out of context to create a new twisted satanic doctrine.

This is really sad about the adventist church. They think they have got all the truths, but the fact is that they don't. They pervert the gospel, and even their daniel and revelations prophecy have not been properly worked out etc.

I believe the commandments are still valid, will always be valid and i don t preach lawlessness. Instead i try to estalish the law in the spirit of the gospel that Christ preached, which is not perfection. That is the devil preaching. But i don t respond to insults anymore, i realise that most of you are just the fruits of Uriah Smith and Ellen White before 1888 when she still believed in legalism. There has been a tremendous cover up within the adventist church working against the will of EG White which has caused the turbulence inside the church. Look for Tom Norris if you want to know what i am talking about.

hi truthseeker007, how are you doing...wish i had as much patience for some others as i do for your struggles!!

i dont think ellen white really taught legalism before '88, i think its more on how she was read....i know for myself i read both the bible and her differently as i continue to, hopefully, grow in understanding.

i start seeing verses and statements that hadnt had meaning before and it changes my outlook...

i personally believe that the focus, unfortunately, has been on some vague idea of "perfection", but not on the Person Who is perfect, nor on the right reasons for that "perfection" by people who have not been converted. those people may be pastors, leaders, laypeople, and they may know the word of God and writings of egw very well, but as long as it is defending some vague concept without the aforementioned points it completely misses the point.

the question is, as has so aptly been said by others, who will be happy in heaven? what will heaven be like? what are the rules and regulations? do we like those rules? do we prefer other character traits to those necessary for heaven?....

[Robert]

Quote:

Overaged: The "shaking" has been going on for a while now.

Yes, the skaking has been going on since the establishment of the SDA church and even before. But the shaking will continue to intensify in order to cleanse the church. God will finally cleanse His church of all its defilement, just as He cleansed the temple in Jerusalem.

There's an excellect book on it, The Shaking Among God's People, written by Keavin Hayden.

He shows that the shaking results from

The sifting of temptation

Worldliness

Prosperity and Adversity

False Theories

The Straight Testimony

Persecution and the Sunday Law Crisis

Better book...and more honest also: Read

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: truthseeker007

There will be a great shaking, and then those that felt comfortable with legalism etc. will be the first to depart the movement.

No, the first to depart will be those who have tossed aside the investigative judgment, the Sanctuary truth, and other truths that we have been given. ...

no, hes right richard. i know several conservatives who've gone into ultraconservatism and left the church....im sure liberals and ultralibs have also left, but i think what will be left in the church will be neither conservative nor liberal...they will be Christlike.

remember that the papacy is the ultimate in legalism-all who have that heart will join it, the heart to beat down, put down, etc., in whatever form, all who disagree with it...

[teresaq]

Where have some of you characters been lately? The "shaking" has been going on for a while now.

that has certainly been my observation!!

[Robert]

Ellen White describes those who will be shaken out:

The self-deceived

The careless and indifferent

The covetous and selfish

Those who refuse to sacrifice

The worldly-minded

The compromisers

The disobedient

The jealous and faultfinding (1 T 251)

The talebearers-- those who accuse and condemn (Upward Look 122)

The superficial, conservative class (5 T 463)

Those who don't control appetite (4 T 31, 32)

Those who cause disunity (RH, June 18, 1901)

Superficial Bible students (TM 112)

Those who lose faith in the prophetic gift (3 SM 84)

Whatever....We must ultimately go with the Bible! What does the Bible say concerning the Laodicea?

Read!

[wayfinder]

Quote:

Ellen White describes those who will be shaken out:

The self-deceived

The careless and indifferent

The covetous and selfish

Those who refuse to sacrifice

The worldly-minded

The compromisers

The disobedient

The jealous and faultfinding (1 T 251)

The talebearers-- those who accuse and condemn (Upward Look 122)

The superficial, conservative class (5 T 463)

Those who don't control appetite (4 T 31, 32)

Those who cause disunity (RH, June 18, 1901)

Superficial Bible students (TM 112)

Those who lose faith in the prophetic gift (3 SM 84)

Amos 9:8 "Surely the eyes of the Sovereign LORD are on the sinful kingdom. I will destroy it from the face of the earth-- yet I will not totally destroy the house of Jacob," declares the LORD.

9 "For I will give the command, and I will shake the house of Israel among all the nations as grain is shaken in a sieve, and not a pebble will reach the ground.

10 All the sinners among my people will die by the sword, all those who say, 'Disaster will not overtake or meet us.

It would appear in this verse that that which is shaken out is good and that which remains in the sieve is bad i.e. stones and pebbles.

[Robert]

Good stuff:

Now Laodicea does have something that is very, very valuable to her. It is the basis of our pride, even our denominational pride is based on that, and that is our righteousness. I want to give you an illustration: I was holding a lay-workers seminar there in Ethiopia. And it was a long seminar, it was three weeks. These were lay-farmers — most of the lay people there are farmers, peasant farmers — and certain times of the year, like I suppose in winter here, they do not have much work to do. So they have free time and we used to pull them in and give them some good Bible studies, and this was a three-week course. At the end of the second week, I got a telephone call from the Union Headquarters telling me that there was a leader of the church from the General Conference, from the Sabbath School Department, “Could you please step down and let him have the lay people for three days since they’re already there?”

So I thought, “Sure, no problem.” And he was trying to explain to them how to increase the Sabbath School offering. Now in Ethiopia they collect offerings with a bag connected to a stick, and they put it out because people sit very close together, it’s crowded. And he said, “That’s the worse thing to do, because you can put your hand in and pretend you are giving, and give nothing. Or you can put your hand in and take out money and nobody will know. What you need is an open plate. And it must have no felt on it, an open plate that makes a noise, so people can hear whether you’re giving copper or silver. And the deacons who collect the money must be the first ones to give, and they must show the people what they’re giving to set a good example. I guarantee you, the Sabbath School offering will increase.”

One of our dear sisters, a student at the University of Haile Selasie — it was closed down because of the Marxist Revolution — she stood up and said, “Elder, with all due respect to you, what you are teaching us sounds very much like the flesh. If we have the love of Christ, we will give.” The other lay-people said, “Amen.”

Of course, that made him annoyed, and he said to them, “Are you trying to tell me that you know the gospel and I don’t?”

She said, “No, but it doesn’t sound right to us.”

Well, he went and reported this problem to the president of the college, and the president of the college said, “Well, maybe what you are teaching is contradicting what Pastor Sequeira is teaching, so you need to see him!”

The president came and told me about it, even some of the lay people came and told me what had happened. You see, I wasn’t there, I had just stepped out and was letting him teach them. Well, I’ll tell you, he didn’t come to me and so the last day, the third day, I said to my wife, “Let’s invite him for supper, maybe in our home we can open up the subject.”

So we did invite him and he didn’t open up the subject, so I did. I wanted to clarify the issue. He wanted to rebuke me, but he did not do it directly so he did it through another man. He was telling me how terrible this man was, and, of course, the man was Morris Vendon. He said, “This man has all the young people in his hands, but what does he do with these incentives? He makes mockery out of them.”

I turned around to him and said, “Maybe Morris Vendon is right.”

Then he made a statement to me, which reflects very much on what we are studying, he said to me, “Are you saying to me that I have to give up 45 years of successful ministry for the Righteousness of Christ?”

I said, “That is what it may cost you.”

Folks, it is not easy when you have had tremendous success in the Christian life to give it up for the Righteousness of Christ; it’s very expensive. I want to give you an example. Please turn to Philippians 3. You see, the thing is this, the more success you have, the harder it is. And I want to turn to a man who was very successful, because what God is saying to Laodicea, “You must give up your self-righteousness which you think has made you rich, you must give it up, in exchange for My Righteousness.”

Before we look at Philippians 3, let me read a couple of statements from the pen of Ellen G. White to give you a background:

“The people of God are represented in the message to the Laodiceans as in a position of carnal (which is another word for fleshly) security. They are at ease, believing themselves to be in an exalted condition of spiritual attainment.” [3T 252]

“I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen (The angel of the Lord showed Ellen G. White in vision that there would be a shaking in this church) and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans....”

What is the counsel? “To buy from Me” these three things.

“...This will have its affect on the heart of the receiver and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony, they will rise up against it and this will cause a shaking among God’s people.” [1T 181]

It happened in 1888, it will happen today, folks. Then the next statement, which is related to this same issue, Testimonies to Ministers, pages 64-65 (remember, they’re the angels of Laodicea):

“They (referring to ministers) are not willing to be deprived of the garment of their own self-righteousness. (“We worked hard for this; why should we give it up?”) They are not willing to exchange (which is another word for “buying”) their own righteousness, which is unrighteousness, for the righteousness of Christ, which is pure unadulterated truth.

Which is “not I, but Christ” — no mixture of self in it.

So please remember this is the issue. Now I want to turn to this example, and that is Philippians 3. If there was anyone in the Jewish church, which was famous for self-righteousness, who had a claim to a wonderful success, it was Paul before his conversion. And in verse 4, 5, and 6 He puts in a nutshell what he had attained, number one by birth, number two as a Pharisee, and by performance. Verse 6:

...As for zeal, persecuting the church...

“Regarding zeal for God (that’s what he means), I persecuted the church.”

In other words, “I was on fire for you, God, and when I persecuted the church, I was not doing it in rebellion towards You, in my mind I was serving You.”

As for legalistic righteousness, [i was] faultless. But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ.

He was willing to give up all his success for Christ’s righteousness. And that is “buying.” He goes on to say in verse 8:

What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things...

Please notice, it does involve suffering, it does hurt our pride, individually, and denominationally. But it says clearly (verses 8-9):

I consider them rubbish [dung or refuse], that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law [i.e., the works of the law], but that which is through faith in Christ — the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.

Please notice there are two “righteousnesses” in verse 9: (1) his righteousness, which he had attained by much effort and tremendous success, and (2) God’s righteousness, which is yours by faith alone. He had to give up one for the other. This, folks, is the price. It is a costly price. As our brother said in Ethiopia, “Do you want me to give up 45 years of successful ministry?”

Yes folks, God wants you to give up everything. He wants us to give up our opinion about ourselves, He wants us to give up all that we thought was profit, because it was not, and we must turn to Christ as our Righteousness, both in terms of justification and also sanctification. We must be clear: the 1888 message did not preach only justification as the Righteousness of Christ. Both. The formula for Justification, the formula for Sanctification is the same: “Not I, but Christ.” That is the expensive price. So I’ve spent some time on the word “buy” because that’s the key word in Revelation 3:18.

Are you willing to give up your self-opinion, and all the success that has given you (“stars in your crown”)? Are you willing to give it up for the Righteousness of Christ? That is the price we have to pay.

[John317]

Quote:

John317:Ellen White describes those who will be shaken out:

The self-deceived

The careless and indifferent

The covetous and selfish

Those who refuse to sacrifice

The worldly-minded

The compromisers

The disobedient

The jealous and faultfinding (1 T 251)

The talebearers-- those who accuse and condemn (Upward Look 122)

The superficial, conservative class (5 T 463)

Those who don't control appetite (4 T 31, 32)

Those who cause disunity (RH, June 18, 1901)

Superficial Bible students (TM 112)

Those who lose faith in the prophetic gift (3 SM 84)

Quote:

Robert: Whatever....We must ultimately go with the Bible! What does the Bible say concerning the Laodicea?

The list above includes the message of Christ to Laodicea.

We need to understand both the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy. God raised up Ellen White for the SDA church to keep us on the right road to the kingdom. Those who lose their faith in the prophetic gift will be among the ones shaken out.

Is Jack saying things that encourage people to lose faith in the prophetic gift?

I don't believe he does that, but that seems to be how some interpret him. I doubt Jack would agree with that interpretation of his theology.

[Robert]

We need to understand both the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy.