When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[Robert]

The man of Romans 7 is only converted intellectually.

Pure speculation....

The man of Romans 7 has God's law written into his mind & heart. He delights in God's law according to the converted mind....

[Robert]

He obviously is not walking in the Spirit but in the flesh.

No! He hates the flesh, but he hasn't learned to give up his own self-willed efforts in his battle against the "the law of sin". He hasn't learned to give up his will to God and let him defeat the desires of his human nature. We all do it....

Rom 8:7 the mind set on the flesh [is in harmony with the flesh] is hostile toward God ; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so

On the contrary, the man of Romans 7 delights in God's law according to the regenerated mind.

[Guest]

Quote:

If one is going to sin, is it not better to be the worldling, who does not know that there is such a thing as liberty, than to be the man who knows that there is liberty, but cannot get it? If it has got to be slavery, if we must live in the sins of the world, then it is better to be in the world, partaking of its pleasures, than to be in a miserable bondage, and have no hope of a life to come." E.G. Waggoner, Bible Studies on the Book of Romans, p.53,54.

Amen Mr. Waggoner, you got it right. Your partner Mr. Jones had it right too.

[Robert]

Rom 8:7 the mind set on the flesh [is in harmony with the flesh] is hostile toward God...

Eph 2:3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Note that before conversion our flesh (sinful human nature) and minds are in agreement. They are in harmony. The flesh says do this and the mind agrees....

Not so with the man of Romans 7. The flesh says do this and the mind, which delights in God's law, says "no", but since the human mind can't defeat the desires of the flesh sin gets its way....

Is there any condemnation of such a person? NO!

If you insist that such a person is condemned then you are preaching salvation by performance.....In such a case you judge yourself because the law requires complete obedience.....

[skyblue888]

That the exeperience described in Chapter 7 of Romans is that of the would-be Christian no one should doubt. This is the experience of all, who, in all lands and in all ages of the world could say, "I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members" and cried out "O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Rom.7:22-24.

Commenting upon these verses, the Holy Spirit says:

"It is not enough to perceive the loving-kindness of God, to see His benevolence, the fatherly tenderness of His character. It is not enough to discern the wisdom and justice of His law, to see that it is founded upon the eternal principle of love. Paul the apostle saw all this when he exclaimed, 'I consent unto the law that it is good.' 'The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.' But he added, in the bitterness of his soul-anguish and despair, 'I am carnal, sold under sin.' Rom.7:16,12,14. He longed for the purity, the righteousness, to which in himself he was powerless to attain, and cried out, 'O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?' Rom.7:24 Such is the cry that has gone up from burdened hearts in all lands and in all ages." S.C.19.

Here is another testimony regarding the experience of the man of Romans 7:

"There are many who realize their helplessness, and who long for that spiritual life which will bring them into harmony with God; they are vainly striving to obtain it. In despair they cry, 'O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?' Rom.7:24." Desire of Ages, p.203.

To all these there is but one answer: Behold the uplifted Saviour and accept His all-sufficient merits which it is your privilege to claim and the Holy Spirit shall be given to subdue all your inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil and to impress Christ's character upon you.

The believing, repentant sinner must do this daily.

sky

[Robert]

the exeperience described in Chapter 7 of Romans is that of the would-be Christian no one should doubt

"No one should doubt" your opinion? I think not!

Romans 8:7 the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law—indeed it cannot.

If the man of Romans 7 is unconverted then his statement, "I delight in God's law according to the inward man" is a lie!!! That phrase "inward man" always refers to the converted man...always!

If you wish to look at Paul before his conversion go to Phil 3:6. "As touching the righteousness which is in the law , blameless", but after conversion we see a new mind-set:

"Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am [present tense] chief" [1 Tim 1:15] He saw himself as incomplete in view of the spirituality of God's law.

So the mind-set of the unconverted is a self-righteous attitude. This is not true of the man of Romans 7, but it is true of many in Laodicea.

[doug yowell]

I'm a Johnny-come-lately and haven't browsed thru the previous 112 pagesso I might have already missed this.If the Rom.7 man is unconverted because he is describing the conflict between his flesh and his spirit,then are we saying that when one is truely converted the struggle between mind and flesh is over? Are we suggesting that we can only be considered truely converted when we automatically follow the desires of the Spirit that dwells within us? Wouldn't that imply complete spiritual perfection? Isn't the Rom.8 man the same guy, implying that Paul is merely describing the struggle? Just need some clarity,thanks.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

If the man of Romans 7 is unconverted then his statement, "I delight in God's law according to the inward man" is a lie!!! That phrase "inward man" always refers to the converted man...always!

Always where? He only uses the expression here and one other place, isn't that right? That's hardly the basis upon which to form a conclusion, is it?

"Inward man" in contrast to the flesh isn't hard to understand. It's a desire we have within ourself; an inward desire. A person doesn't have to be converted to have the desire not to sin.

Waggoner explained the passage well, and clearly.

[Robert]

He only uses the expression here and one other place, isn't that right? That's hardly the basis upon which to form a conclusion, is it?

[Robert]

Before the outside can be correct the mind has to be changed.

Matt 23:25 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish [you polish the outside (your performance)], but inside [the mind] they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish [the mind - through conversion], that the outside of them may be clean also. 27 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. 28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside [in the mind] you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

[Twilight]

I'm a Johnny-come-lately and haven't browsed thru the previous 112 pagesso I might have already missed this.If the Rom.7 man is unconverted because he is describing the conflict between his flesh and his spirit,then are we saying that when one is truely converted the struggle between mind and flesh is over? Are we suggesting that we can only be considered truely converted when we automatically follow the desires of the Spirit that dwells within us? Wouldn't that imply complete spiritual perfection? Isn't the Rom.8 man the same guy, implying that Paul is merely describing the struggle? Just need some clarity,thanks.

Romans 7 is talking about the man who does not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Call him a pharisee if you like.

He wants to please God but lacks the power, his sin rules him.

But Romans 8 is talking about the man who has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Who now has the power to overcome sin, as he subjects himself to and follows the leading of the Holy Spirit.

The man in Romans 7 is condemned by his failure.

The man in Romans 8 is set free by God.

Two totally different experiences.

Mark :-)

[Guest]

Amen!

[John317]

Very good remarks, Mark.

[Robert]

Romans 7 is talking about the man who does not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

[Robert]

He realized that even the good things he did were polluted with selfishness. This is the mind of a converted man.

Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ’s character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption.

"Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. [sC 28]

Our earthly life, however long, honored, or useful it may be, is but childhood, frail, imperfect, and undeveloped. Manhood, with its full, perfect, glorious development, will come, when, freed from the taint of sin, we stand among the redeemed throng. Then we shall enjoy a life which measures with the life of God, and through everlasting ages we shall go on increasing in wisdom and knowledge.

[Robert]

The man in Romans 7 is condemned by his failure.

"There is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus."

Why? Because of their performance? No!

"because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death."

The man of Romans 7 isn't condemned because

1] He isn't under law

and

2] his life was in Christ and hence in Him he was freed from the law of sin and the 2nd death.

You guys say "no". Paul says "yes". You guys present a legalistic, self-righteous, holier than thou gospel. There's no hope for the struggling sinner.....Than there's no hope for you because all of you are still bent to self unless you are living Christ's life. And "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

[doug yowell]

[Romans 7 is talking about the man who does not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Call him a pharisee if you like.

He wants to please God but lacks the power, his sin rules him.

But Romans 8 is talking about the man who has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Who now has the power to overcome sin, as he subjects himself to and follows the leading of the Holy Spirit.

The man in Romans 7 is condemned by his failure.

The man in Romans 8 is set free by God.

Two totally different experiences.

Mark :-)

I appreciate your answer, Mark,but you didn't address my attending questions. Does the truely converted never experience failure in their growing experience?Does true conversion mean that every time the person discovers a fault (whether omission or comission) within themselves that they instantly and effortlessly achieve that victory required by faith? Isn't Paul describing two "different" men in (remembering that there is no real chapterbreak)Rom.7,one that has two laws at work within his being?Is it possible that Rom.7,8 is a broader description of IICor.10:3-6 rather than a distinction between one who never fails and one who always fails?

[skyblue888]

The man of Romans 8 is not above temptation. He is tempted just the same if not more so because now the enemy is on his case more than ever before. But now by appropriating the merits of Christ and relying solely upon them, he may stand unscathed amid the fire of temptation and trial.

Those who say that the man of Romans 7 is filled with the Holy Spirit are doing violence to the Scriptures. That man is only longing for that spiritual life which will bring him into harmony with God. He is converted intellectually but to be converted intellectually is not enough. He has not yet learned to come to God trusting wholly in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour to bring Christ's righteousness into his life and which alone can enable him to overcome as Jesus overcame.

The man of Romans 8 is trusting in the merits of Christ for pardon and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit and he is made more than conqueror if he continues in that faith which is the only true faith.

"God will accept everyone that comes to Him trusting wholly in the merits of the crucified Saviour. Love springs up in the heart." 1 S.M.354.

"The love of God will strengthen the soul, and through the virtue of the merits of the blood of Christ, we may stand unscathed amid the fire of temptation and trial." F.W.87.

Thus we read, "The only faith that will benefit us is that which embraces Him as a personal Saviour: which appropriates His merits to ourselves." D.A.347.

sky

*of course the man of Romans 8 who is in Christ Jesus can fall but if he does he has an Advocate who pleads the merits of His shed blood in his behalf. He confesses and through the merits of Christ he is given the gift of repentance by the Holy Spirit and gets back on his feet. But the aim is to overcome as Jesus overcame for the believing sinner now has the grace of God which is exceedingly abundant with faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 1 Tim.1:14.

"We shall come in repentance and contrition, with a despairing sense of our own finite weakness, and learn that we must daily apply to the merits of the blood of Christ that we may become vessels fit for the Master's use." F.W.86.

[pnattmbtc]

p:He only uses the expression here and one other place, isn't that right? That's hardly the basis upon which to form a conclusion, is it?

R:2 Corinthians 4:16 Therefore we [believers] do not lose heart. Though outwardly [i.e., the flesh, the body] we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day.

You see, he’s talking about the converted mind.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

[Romans 7 is talking about the man who does not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Call him a pharisee if you like.

He wants to please God but lacks the power, his sin rules him.

But Romans 8 is talking about the man who has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Who now has the power to overcome sin, as he subjects himself to and follows the leading of the Holy Spirit.

The man in Romans 7 is condemned by his failure.

The man in Romans 8 is set free by God.

Two totally different experiences.

Mark :-)

I appreciate your answer, Mark,but you didn't address my attending questions. Does the truely converted never experience failure in their growing experience?Does true conversion mean that every time the person discovers a fault (whether omission or comission) within themselves that they instantly and effortlessly achieve that victory required by faith? Isn't Paul describing two "different" men in (remembering that there is no real chapterbreak)Rom.7,one that has two laws at work within his being?Is it possible that Rom.7,8 is a broader description of IICor.10:3-6 rather than a distinction between one who never fails and one who always fails?

Peter experienced failure after he received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Chapter 7 describes 2 laws.

Chapter 8 describes 3 laws.

Does that answer your question?

Mark :-)

[skyblue888]

In Romans 7 Paul speaks of "the law of God" which is "the law of his mind" because he delights in that law though it is only the mere letter of the law. Secondly he speaks of the law of sin and death which is in his members, the great law of heridity. Here the law of sin and death is the conquering power for the letter of the law cannot impart life to the unwillilng sinner, that spiritual life by which the sinner can overcome the law of sin and death.

So in Romans 7 he is speaking of two laws: the law of God as engraved on stones or written with ink and in which he delights in the inner man and the law of sin, the great law of heredidy to which he is a slave.

In Romans 8 he introduces the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which makes him free from the law of sin and death. Here the law of the Spirit and life in Christ Jesus is also the law of God, not merely written but spoken, not merely engraved on stones or written with ink but proceeding out of the mouth of God which is Spirit and life in Christ Jesus now that he has found the only way to attain to righteousness, which is to come to God trusting wholly in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour.

So in Romans 7 Paul is speaking of two laws and in Romans 8 he is also speaking of only two laws.

In Romans 7, 1. The law of God (mere letter of the law) and 2. The law of sin and death, the great law of heredity.

In Romans 8, 1. The law of the Spirit and life in Christ Jesus which is the law of God not merely written but spoken which gives him the victory over 2. the law of sin and death, the great law of heredity.

sky

[Robert]

Paul, in Romans 7, is speaking about a person desiring something with his inward being.

[Robert]

In Romans 7 Paul speaks of "the law of God" which is "the law of his mind"

Utterly false!!!

Rom 7:22 For in my inner being [the inner mind where the Spirit dwells] I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

Three laws:

1] Law of God

2] law of my mind

3] law of sin

The law of God is written in the mind so the mind becomes in harmony with God's agape.

The law of my mind is my will that delight in God's law and wants to live a life of agape.

Notice how Paul associates this: Rom 7:15 For what I want [will] to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself [my will] who do it, but it is sin living in me.

This brings me to point three. The law of sin. We are born bent to self. When your infants pitches that fit...or takes a toy from another infant, he/she is doing something completely natural. The driving force? The love of self, me, me, me...mine, mine, mine!

The problem? While God's Spirit has illuminated the mind and brought it into harmony with God's law of agape, the will (the law of my mind) cannot say "no" to the love of self. Yes, for a season it might, then the will weakens and the love of self takes over.

The man of Romans 8 is learning to let the Spirit have the "will" (the law of my mind) so that "the law of the Spirit" can defeat "the law of sin" when tempted. Nevertheless, the man of Romans 7 is converted and saved. Thank God!

So in Romans 8 you have 4 laws:

1] Law of God

2] law of my mind

3] law of sin

4] law of the Spirit

Notice, though, how we are saved: Rom 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus [by faith inferred], [why?] 2 because through Christ Jesus [not your performance] the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

This is past tense....How so? Are you free of the law of sin? No, the sin nature remains until death. So Paul is speaking of your position "in Christ".

[doug yowell]

*of course the man of Romans 8 who is in Christ Jesus can fall but if he does he has an Advocate who pleads the merits of His shed blood in his behalf. He confesses and through the merits of Christ he is given the gift of repentance by the Holy Spirit and gets back on his feet. But the aim is to overcome as Jesus overcame for the believing sinner now has the grace of God which is exceedingly abundant with faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 1 Tim.1:14.

"We shall come in repentance and contrition, with a despairing sense of our own finite weakness, and learn that we must daily apply to the merits of the blood of Christ that we may become vessels fit for the Master's use." F.W.86.

So, the Rom.7 man,who,with a despairing sense of his own finite weakness,cries out,"O wretched man that I am!Who will deliver me from this body of death?",and who follows by exclaming,"I thank God-through Jesus Christ our Lord!",does not have an Advocate with the Father?Why then is he thanking God?

[pnattmbtc]

p:Paul, in Romans 7, is speaking about a person desiring something with his inward being.

R:"Something"? Paul doesn't say this....He says that the man of Romans 7 "delights in God's law according to the inward man". He loves God's law...his mind is in harmony with the law.