When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[pnattmbtc]

The pre-converted Paul:

Phil 3:6 ...concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

The converted Paul:

"This is a faithful word, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief."

Note the present tense, "of whom I am chief". This does not infer that Paul didn't grow in grace. Paul was not delusional when it came to comparing his life to Christ's. "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself." Paul fell short. No longer was he deceived by his own self-righteousness.

Paul referred to himself as the "chief of sinners" because he recognized his role in the death of Christ. Any converted person should feel as Paul did.

A little thought should make it clear that Paul wasn't referring to his present behavior as why he was the "chief of sinners." Paul wasn't so foolish as to think he was at the time of his writing sinning worse than any murderer or rapist or child abuser, etc.

[Robert]

Paul referred to himself as the "chief of sinners" because he recognized his role in the death of Christ. Any converted person should feel as Paul did.

Prove it....

[Robert]

This is from John: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Sorry, not the context of Romans 7.....Why can't you stay with Paul? You can't, so you start verse jumping to make up your legalistic doctrine.

[Twilight]

does not have an Advocate with the Father?Why then is he thanking God?

that seems to be the obvious answer.So how bout finishing answering the question,WHY is he thanking God? What is he thankful for if he's not converted?

[Robert]

He now goes on to qualify that there is no condemnation for those that have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and follow its leading:

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus....

The word “therefore” immediately tells me that this verse is connected with the previous statements that Paul made. What did Paul say previously to verse 1 of chapter 8? Remember, there were no chapter and verse divisions when Paul wrote. What is he saying? He has just told us in Romans 7:14-25 that there is a problem in his life, a problem in every human life. And that is: sin dwells in us. The law of sin is in our members. And in Romans 7:24 he cries out in desperation:

What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

I have a body that stands condemned to death because it has sin dwelling in it. Who will deliver me not from my sin, my acts, but from what I am? That is the issue. I want you to know his answer, Romans 7:25:

Thanks be to God — through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Now he didn’t explain any further there. He goes to Romans 8 to explain what he means by, “Thanks be to God — through Jesus Christ our Lord!” In view of this, he says:

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus....

Do you still have sin dwelling in your members? I’m not talking about performance, I’m talking of sin dwelling in you, in your members. The answer is “yes,” because Christians still have sinful flesh. Do you stand condemned? Not in Christ; there is no condemnation for those in Christ.

Now I would like to say for those of you who have the King James version of the Bible, because you will notice, those of you who have a modern translation like the NIV, Good News Bible, or any contemporary version, the second half of verse one from the King James is not there:

...who do walk not according to the flesh [the sinful nature], but according to the Spirit.

The most reliable manuscripts do not have that second part. I am convinced this is a scribal addition, not mainly because of the textual fact but because if Paul put that statement there in verse 1, he would be contradicting his own theology. Because he would be saying that we are justified because we are doing something, we are walking in the Spirit. He would be making sanctification the means of justification, which Paul condemned.

Yes, sanctification is the fruit of justification, never the means. That part, “walking in the spirit and not in the flesh,” does belong to verse 4 but not to verse 3. All that Paul says in verse 1 is that, “There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ.” Why is there no condemnation for those who are in Christ? The answer is found in verse 2, because something took place in Christ. Romans 8:2:

...Because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Please notice it’s not through you, but through Christ. Now the words “set me free” are in the past historic tense, the Aorist. It’s something that has already happened in the past. I have and you have already been freed from the law of sin and death, but we have been freed in Christ. Now how could Christ free you from the law of sin and death if he did not assume the nature that had it? Then in verse 3 he goes on to say how this happened, he gives the details. Romans 8:3:

For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man....

The law of God could not free you from the law of sin and death, and he’s already covered that in chapter 7. The flesh is incapable of keeping the law of God because it’s weak. What the law could not do, God did. How did God do it? By sending His own son in a human nature that is like yours and mine.

Now please notice what he condemned. He did not condemn “sins,” your performance or mine. He condemned “SIN,” singular. What is Paul referring to when he uses the phrase “sin in sinful man” (or “sin in the flesh,” as some translations read)? The phrase “sin in the flesh,” found in verse 3, the phrase “the law of sin and death” found in verse 2, the phrase “the law of sin at work within my members” found in Romans 7:23, the phrase “sin living in me” found in Romans 7:17 and 20 are all synonymous terms. Paul is not dealing here with our performance; he is dealing with the source of our problem, the foundation of our problem, which is sin dwelling in me. [Jack Sequeira]

[Twilight]

...who do walk not according to the flesh [the sinful nature], but according to the Spirit.

[color:#660000]The most reliable manuscripts do not have that second part. I am convinced this is a scribal addition, not mainly because of the textual fact but because if Paul put that statement there in verse 1, he would be contradicting his own theology. Because he would be saying that we are justified because we are doing something, we are walking in the Spirit. He would be making sanctification the means of justification, which Paul condemned.

That is a big lump of theology to build on a "scribal addition theory"...

Regardless however, the rest of Romans 8 continues to make the point that those that are led by the Spirit are the true sons of God.

Unless a "scribe" has been extremely busy, this argument holds about as much water as a sieve.

[John317]

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The vast majority of the Greek manuscripts read "who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit." Only a few do not have those words in verse 1. The rest of the chapter makes it clear that those who are truly in Christ "walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit." See verses 4 to 11. It says plainly that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ do not belong to Him. What does it mean to have the Spirit of Christ? Verses 5, 6 tell us that it means setting our minds on the things of the Spirit and living according to the Spirit. If the Spirit of God dwells in us, we won't be in the flesh but we will be in the Spirit. (v. 9)

The point is that when people are truly "in Christ," Christ is in them, and it shows in the life. That's the same point that the Apostle John makes in 1 John 3: 1-10 as well as in the first and second chapters.

Romans 8:1-11

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [2'] For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. [3] For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, [4] in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. [5] For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. [6] To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. [7] For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. [8] Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

[9] You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. [10] But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. [11] If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Exactly.

[skyblue888]

"The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your eyes; for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His perfect nature. This is evidence that Satan's delusions have lost their power." S.C.71.

What is the condition of that man who begins to think himself pretty good? And praises himself? Satan's delusion is upon him. Even if he has lived with the Lord fifteen or twenty years, if he begins to think he is quite good--what is the condition of that man?--He is deluded by Satan. He is under satanic delusions. That is all.

There was a man that lived with Jesus Christ thirty years. When he first began, in the earliest years of his life with Christ, he said, "I am crucifed with Christ; nevertheless I live; yet not I but Christ liveth in me." And nearly thirty years after this, near the close of his life, he said this: "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am chief."

Oh he had such a view of the Lord Jesus, of His holiness, of His perfect purity, that when he looked at himself, considered himself, as separated from Christ, he was the worst of all men.

That is Christianity. That is the mind of Christ." A.T. Jones, 1893 General Conference Bulletin, p.345.

"None of the apostles or prophets ever claimed to be without sin. Men who have lived nearest to God, men who would sacrifice life itself rather than knowingly commit a wrong act, men whom God had honored with divine light and power, have confessed the sinfulness of their own nature." C.O.L.160.

This is what the apostle Paul did after 30 years of walking with Christ, confessing the sinfulness of his nature though he would have sacrificed life itself rather than knowingly commit a wrong act! "I am the chief of sinners." Through the grace of Christ which he had obtained through faith in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour, he had been made "more than conqueror" over all his inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil while the character of Christ had been impressed upon him.

That is Christianity.

So will it be with all who behold Christ and accept His merits which it is their privilege to claim that through the grace of God which is abundant with faith and love that are in Christ Jesus (1 Tim.1:14) they may become vessels fit for the Master's use, as the Apostle Paul was.

sky

[Robert]

The point is that when people are truly "in Christ," Christ is in them, and it shows in the life.

Utterly false! You where "in Christ" 2000 years ago before you existed as an individual. Once again you are presenting "another gospel"....

[Robert]

That is a big lump of theology to build on a "scribal addition theory"...

You didn't even look at why that addition can't be correct....Why?

If there's no condemnation because the believer is keeping the law than you can ignore Romans 8:2,3

"Because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Please notice it’s not through you, but through Christ. Now the words “set me free” are in the past historic tense, the Aorist. It’s something that has already happened in the past. I have and you have already been freed from the law of sin and death, but we have been freed in Christ."

[wayfinder]

John 17:11 "I am no longer in the world ; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.

It would appear that Christ is asking His Father to perform this unification in the future for His disciples.

John 17:22 "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one ; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me

And in the future unify those who believe in their word of the testimony of the Son of God.

John 17:25 "O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; 26 and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

[Dr. Rich]

So Wayfinder, what does one have to do to have perfect unity with God and his fellow servants of God?

[wayfinder]

The answer is simple, unity can only be accomplished through the truth. Lies divide, truth unifies.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Paul referred to himself as the "chief of sinners" because he recognized his role in the death of Christ. Any converted person should feel as Paul did.

Prove it....

Ask any converted person.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

This is from John: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Sorry, not the context of Romans 7.....Why can't you stay with Paul? You can't, so you start verse jumping to make up your legalistic doctrine.

??? Why can't you stay with Jesus Christ?

Why don't you address arguments? Simply avoiding points made and calling people names hardly speaks favorably to your positions.

[Robert]

Ask any converted person.

That's not a Biblical proof....You said, "because he recognized his role in the death of Christ". Prove it.

[Robert]

Why don't you address arguments?

Stay with the context, bubba.

[Robert]

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

The word “therefore” is used by Paul as a conclusion that is based what he had previously written in Romans chapter 7. Let's look at this again:

22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

The man of Romans 7 is failing to live a life of agape (which is the fulfillment of the law). Not because he hates God's law (as does the unconverted person in Romans 8:7), but because he is trying to use his will power (the law of my mind) to defeat "the law of sin".

As he matures he will learn to allow "the law of the Spirit" (Rom 8:2) to take over his will and then, through Christ, he can experience growth. But for now that isn't the case. Is there any condemnation?

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

Again, why isn't there any condemnation to the believer who has accepted his position "in Christ", but is failing to mature?

For the law of the Spirit of life (the power of the Spirit that was) in Christ Jesus [not in the individual believer] has made me (past tense) free from the law of sin and death.

How was my life set free from

1] the law of sin (the sin nature)

and

2] the wages of sin, death?

3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh (human nature), God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and on account of sin He condemned sin (where?) in the flesh....

Jesus, through "the law of the Spirit", defeated "the law of sin" at its source, i.e., in our fallen humanity. So in the Holy history of Christ my humanity, indwelt with "the law of sin", was defeated and "in Christ" my old fallen life died under the curse.

Again, according to Romans 8:1-3, the reason there's no condemnation to the struggling believer is because of the truth as it is "in Christ". What's true of us "in Christ"?

In Christ we are put right with God, and have been made holy, and have been set free from sin. [1 Cor 1:30 NCV]

Note the past tense..."have been made holy...have been set free from sin", etc. All this is true "in Christ". We are complete in Him.

[Robert]

Now let's take the other version of Romans 8:1,2 into consideration.

1 There is therefore [Paul is making his conclusion of the man of Romans 7] now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

That's a contradiction for two reasons:

a] The man of Romans 7 is not walking according to the Spirit. He is trying to defeat the sin nature using his will power and so he ends up doing what the sin nature desires. So there is condemnation.

b] If there's only "no condemnation" for those "walking in the Spirit" then Romans 8 verse 2 becomes meaningless. My life "in Christ" - i.e., His justification of me - doesn't matter. I must keep the law through the Spirit.

You see what happens when we add that phrase, "who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit"?

1] We condemn the struggling believer.

2] We make "walking in the Spirit" the means instead of the result.

[Robert]

24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!

I just noticed something....Would an unbeliever say, as did the man of Romans 7, "OUR Lord"?

If the man of Romans 7 wasn't converted...wasn't a believer, he would have said, I thank God--through Jesus Christ your Lord.....

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Why don't you address arguments?

Stay with the context, bubba.

The term bubba is very distracting. Makes me want to chew gum.

[doug yowell]

It may also be relevant to the understanding of Rom.7/8 that Paul describes the mind and the flesh as separate entities(v.25). With his mind he SERVES the law of God but not with his flesh. Not the same thing.8:5 "For those who live according to the Spirit (set their minds on) the things of the Spirit."

[doug yowell]

Chapter 7 describes 2 laws.

Chapter 8 describes 3 laws.

Does that answer your question?

Mark :-)

Not really.

[doug yowell]

[]

In other words "in Christ" I already stand justified, sanctified and glorified. [see 1 Cor 1:30] I am complete in Him!

Are you sure that's all? Wasn't 7:25 an answer to the question raised in 7:24?Is the Rom.8 man content with the life of the Rom.7 man? Is he merely thanking God that he can now live that life with impunity? Is the freedom from the law of sin and death strictly a freedom from the eternal consequences of that law?