When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[Robert]

What's false here? Is it your belief that when people are truly "in Christ" that Christ is not in them, that it won't show in their life?

The gospel is what Christ did in our corporate humanity, period. The gospel received by faith is "Christ in us" the hope of glory.

[pnattmbtc]

J:The point is that when people are truly "in Christ," Christ is in them, and it shows in the life.

R:Utterly false! You where "in Christ" 2000 years ago before you existed as an individual. Once again you are presenting "another gospel"....

p:What's false here? Is it your belief that when people are truly "in Christ" that Christ is not in them, that it won't show in their life?

R:The gospel is what Christ did in our corporate humanity, period. The gospel received by faith is "Christ in us" the hope of glory.

This isn't responsive. John said that when people are truly "in Christ," Christ is in them, and it shows in the life. You said this was "Utterly false!" What's false here? Is it your belief that when people are truly "in Christ" that Christ is not in them, that it won't show in their life?

[Overaged]

quote=pnattmbtc]

What's false here? Is it your belief that when people are truly "in Christ" that Christ is not in them, that it won't show in their life? /quote]

The gospel is what Christ did in our corporate humanity, period. The gospel received by faith is "Christ in us" the hope of glory.

Robert; you are presenting the gospel here; but only part of it. It is correct to say that Jesus died for our sins "2000 years ago," but Jesus very obviously works in the individual. The Apostle reflects this when he says:

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

This is not talking about "in Christ" as in 2000 yrs ago, it refers to you and I today. A person cannot be "in Christ" if they don't exist. The gospel is "Christ in the helpless human agent;" and this occurs all the time, it is not just a one time thing.

If what you say is true; then I was "in Christ" when I was a speed freak and shootin up every day.

Consider 2 Cor 5:17 in it's wider context:

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This "being made" is not in past tense, as in 2000 years ago; and it happens in individuals, as well as corporately.

[Guest]

You miss the point. You must return to the context....Stop jumping around for Pete sakes.

[Guest]

So I can keep the Sabbath outwardly (and my church will let me be baptized and have my name on the books), but inside I'm doing it because God commanded me to and if I don't, well, too bad for me. So my motive is fear and hope of reward. Fear that God's going to burn me and reward so I can make it to heaven. Both reason are polluted with self - my bent to self.

[Robert]

Apparently, all of the Apostles thought that obedience was not optional; rather, they said "we ought to obey God."

Bubba Overaged....The issue was telling the Apostles not to preach the gospel....This isn't about law keeping....

[Guest]

Bubba Robert, obeying God, is obeying God. It doesn't matter what it's about.

[Robert]

Bubba Robert, obeying God, is obeying God. It doesn't matter what it's about.

Bubba Richard....God doesn't ask us to obey. Yes, in those OC statements He does, but that's designed to bring us to the realization that we can't. Once we admit to this and accept what God did "in Christ Jesus" then we can grow, but we don't do it by keeping rules. We grow by "abiding in Him".

What does Jesus say? "Without Me you can do nothing (i.e., good)" As we hang with Christ by faith our minds begin to take on His characteristics.

[Guest]

God doesn't ask us to obey.

Rom 6:16 Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[Robert]

...or of obedience unto righteousness?

Heb 5:9 ....them that obey him

And what does God ask after we have received the gospel? "Abide in Me"....So God's commands are that,

1] We accept His Son and salvation in him,

2] and that we "abide in Him"

[pnattmbtc]

Bubba Richard....God doesn't ask us to obey. Yes, in those OC statements He does, but that's designed to bring us to the realization that we can't. Once we admit to this and accept what God did "in Christ Jesus" then we can grow, but we don't do it by keeping rules. We grow by "abiding in Him".

What does Jesus say? "Without Me you can do nothing (i.e., good)" As we hang with Christ by faith our minds begin to take on His characteristics.

The New Covenant is the writing of the law on the heart and mind, which means to have the principles of God, agape, a part of one's being. This is the essence of obedience.

Those who believe, obey, and those who are obedient believe. Faith and obedience cannot be separated. "Faith without works is dead," and works without faith are not good works but Bubbaism.

[John317]

The gospel is what Christ did in our corporate humanity, period. The gospel received by faith is "Christ in us" the hope of glory.

The gospel is a lot more than what Jesus did 2000 years ago on the cross, central as that is. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. It includes what God is doing today in the heavenly sanctuary. The gospel is not static but dynamic, which is why it is called "power."

To say the sum total of the gospel are events that took place 2000 years ago is a gospel without power. If that is all it is, it is nothing more than a history lesson. But the resurrection, ascension, and High Priestly ministry are all just as important as was His death. 1 Cor 15 says that without His resurrection, we would all be utterly lost. His death on the cross was His perfect, unrepeatable sacrifice, for sure; but His death was not the atonement any more than was the death of the sacrificial lamb. As the blood had to be sprinkled in the earthly sanctuary, so also Christ had necessarily to present His blood in the heavenly sanctuary before the Father.

[John317]

2] and that we "abide in Him"

How can anyone tell if they are "abiding in Him"?

What does it mean to "abide in Him"?

[John317]

The gospel is what Christ did in our corporate humanity, period.

Can you show clear examples of this gospel as preached by the apostles and followers of Christ in the book of Acts?

Is anyone saved "corporately"?

[Overaged]

quote=Overaged]Apparently, all of the Apostles thought that obedience was not optional; rather, they said "we ought to obey God." /quote]

Bubba Overaged....The issue was telling the Apostles not to preach the gospel....This isn't about law keeping....

Just because we are Christians; and we know and believe that "nothing but the blood of Jesus" saves us; does not mean that "law-keeping," as you have coined it, is something different than obedience. If keeping God's law is not obedience; what else can it be called?

Robert, do not use your false Sequira "gospel" to teach people that they are free to cast away the "law of the Holy One of Israel:"

Isa 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Later, in the NT, the apostles in the text I referenced in my last post did confirm what Isaiah wrote by repeating the essential Christian obligation to obedience. Not to get saved; but to correctly connect to and relate to The One Who does save.

Deu 4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Old and New Testaments are 100% agreed that the law as in God's law, is not optional; and that it is "righteous," "holy," "just," and "good." Anyone who denies this, denies the essential gospel of God's Word. Infact, the "law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul."

[John317]

God doesn't ask us to obey. Yes, in those OC statements He does, but that's designed to bring us to the realization that we can't. Once we admit to this and accept what God did "in Christ Jesus" then we can grow, but we don't do it by keeping rules. We grow by "abiding in Him".

What you say here has a good deal of truth in it, but it seems to me to be clearly error to teach that God doesn't ask us to obey Him. The New Testament contains many commandments of the Father and of Christ that the Bible says we're to obey.

It's true that we grow by abiding in Christ but what does this mean, both to "grow" and to "abide in Him"?

What about people who believe they can abide in Christ and still live contrary, or outside of, God's law? There are many people today who believe this.

Paul said that he realized that he was not "outside of God's law." By that he meant that He recognized that God wanted Him to obey His law. (Paul was talking about God's moral law, not the Law of Moses or the ceremonial laws or the book of the [old] covenant.)

The problem is that there are a lot of people today who are taught and believe that the Ten Commandments are no longer applicable to the Christian. In that situation, it is necessary to teach people to study and become acquainted (possibly re-acquainted) with the Ten Commandments and see them in light of the everlasting gospel. God won't write His laws on our hearts and minds if we are constantly at war with them. God won't force us to obey Him because He honors and respects our freedom too much to compel us. It's necessary for us to submit to Him every day as the Great Physician in the same way that a patient must submit trustingly to his surgeon. If we don't, how can He give us the heart transpant that we all so desperately need?

[Robert]

Robert, do not use your false Sequira "gospel" to teach people that they are free to cast away the "law of the Holy One of Israel:"

pharisee

[Twilight]

Deu 4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Old and New Testaments are 100% agreed that the law as in God's law, is not optional; and that it is "righteous," "holy," "just," and "good." Anyone who denies this, denies the essential gospel of God's Word. Infact, the "law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul."

Indeed.

But Robert has missed one of the most basic element truths of Christianity.

He does not understand that Gods Law is a detailed expression of Gods Love.

So he keeps on insisting that agape and Gods Law are seperate entities...

I have started a new thread here to discuss this foundational issue:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/394687.html

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Robert, do not use your false Sequira "gospel" to teach people that they are free to cast away the "law of the Holy One of Israel:"

pharisee

I am not a "pharisee," just because you call me one. Can you explain from the Bible; (not from jack) why my last post is "wrong?"

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Robert

pharisee

I am not a "pharisee," just because you call me one. Can you explain from the Bible; (not from jack) why my last post is "wrong?"

It would seem that one can be under the new covenant and still stone those to death that do not see it a certain way...

If Robert's behaviour is anything to go by...

Strange how we are all "not living Christ's life" and are therefore legalistic and pharisaical (according to Robert), yet Robert thinks it perfectly acceptable to insult anyone who does not agree with him...

[Overaged]

quote=Overaged]Well; sometimes we all take turns doing a little of that "stoning," stuff. People can still be Christians, even if they believe radically different than us. It is not always true that a Christian is defined by specific doctrinal understandings. That is not the definition of a Christian. A Christian is Christ-like. Period. A stark reminder for all of us.

[Twilight]

Well; sometimes we all take turns doing a little of that "stoning," stuff. People can still be Christians, even if they believe radically different than us. It is not always true that a Christian is defined by specific doctrinal understandings. That is not the definition of a Christian. A Christian is Christ-like. Period. A stark reminder for all of us.

Yes we can all fall into the stoning trap, I agree and maybe I should have reflected that in my comment.

A Christian for me, is someone who has accepted the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and is walking after the Spirit.

Now we know that you can do that under false doctrine, poor teaching, personality imbalances, but those things should slowly level out over time.

We should see a deepening awareness of our own sinfullness in our carnal state.

And Christ's righteousness, which is ours to lay hold of historically and in the present tense.

Your thoughts?

[Overaged]

I will reply to this tonight...out of time for now.

[teresaq]

Well; sometimes we all take turns doing a little of that "stoning," stuff. People can still be Christians, even if they believe radically different than us. It is not always true that a Christian is defined by specific doctrinal understandings. That is not the definition of a Christian. A Christian is Christ-like. Period. A stark reminder for all of us.

how true!! i know ive been guilty. :(

[Robert]

Can you show clear examples of this gospel as preached by the apostles and followers of Christ in the book of Acts?

Is anyone saved "corporately"?

Paul was set aside to make known the mysterious of the gospel. He gives us that mechanics of how God saved us in Christ. The other writers wrote of the life of Christ, but Paul explained how God saved us in Christ.

Read!