When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[pnattmbtc]

That indeed is one part of Gods work.

Removal of sin.

The other part is the impartation of righteousness.

God promised to take our stony heart and give us a heart of flesh.

Two processes. :-)

But the conditions for the cleansing of sin is very simple.

We have to "confess" ours sins when convicted.

Then God removes them.

Sure, of course. God can't cleanse us against our will.

[Overaged]

quote]Obedience is a response to Him. What many call "obedience," is not in fact that at all. You can't put the cart before the horse.

karl simply said you can't have willful disobedience at the same time as a saving relationship with Christ.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

That indeed is one part of Gods work.

Removal of sin.

The other part is the impartation of righteousness.

God promised to take our stony heart and give us a heart of flesh.

Two processes. :-)

But the conditions for the cleansing of sin is very simple.

We have to "confess" ours sins when convicted.

Then God removes them.

Sure, of course. God can't cleanse us against our will.

But notice what it is that God requires from us.

Confession and faith.

This had to be pointed out to me.

It was so simple I missed it.

If I confess my sins, He removes them, they are gone.

[pnattmbtc]

But notice what it is that God requires from us.

Confession and faith.

This had to be pointed out to me.

It was so simple I missed it.

If I confess my sins, He removes them, they are gone.

[pnattmbtc]

karl simply said you can't have willful disobedience at the same time as a saving relationship with Christ.

[Overaged]

Is it the avoidance of a negative that saves us? Or is it the embracing of a positive? I think salvation must be positively grasped. Admittedly, this is only a response to God's great love and sacrifice, but it is still an active response on our parts rather than a passive avoidance of of a non-response.

This is actually well said karl. The response to God's Love & Sacrifice must be in the active tense/sense. Sometimes, the way I read your comments re "obedience," it seems like you are saying something different; but there is an order to the gospel, and to how God works in us. This post says it well.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

Is it the avoidance of a negative that saves us? Or is it the embracing of a positive? I think salvation must be positively grasped. Admittedly, this is only a response to God's great love and sacrifice, but it is still an active response on our parts rather than a passive avoidance of of a non-response.

This is actually well said karl. The response to God's Love & Sacrifice must be in the active tense/sense. Sometimes, the way I read your comments re "obedience," it seems like you are saying something different; but there is an order to the gospel, and to how God works in us. This post says it well.

A lot of people claim that we are saved first and then we obey because we are saved. If this were true everyone would be saved and everyone would be obeying. Look around you. Do you buy this theory?

We cannot be saved without obedience. To respond to God's wooing is to obey Him.

[pnattmbtc]

A lot of people claim that we are saved first and then we obey because we are saved. If this were true everyone would be saved and everyone would be obeying.

[karl]

Yep, I'm saying that if we are saved first and obey later, there is no criterion for being saved and universalism or calvinism should be true.

All conformity to God's will is obedience. This includes all aspects of conversion. EGW refers to our involvement as "the right exercise of the will." The right exercise of the will is obedience to God's wooing. God does not propose to do either the willing or the doing which He has equipped us to do. Man must cooperate with God in the life-transformation of salvation. This is obedience.

[pnattmbtc]

Ok, so there's two points here, it seems to me, to consider.

1.Can one be saved without the will being involved?

If one says "yes," then that leads to the Calvinism or Universalism you're suggesting. I don't know that anyone here believes either of these. I think maybe Old Sailor? Only he comes to mind. I think even he would say the will is involved, just not necessarily in this life.

2.What does one need to do with the will? One can put this in different ways. One way is in terms of not resisting God's will, or interposing a perverse will and thus frustrating His grace. I like to think of it this way, and recently posts a couple of statements in this regard. I don't remember if it was this thread or not.

[karl]

What does one need to do with the will? One can put this in different ways. One way is in terms of not resisting God's will, or interposing a perverse will and thus frustrating His grace. I like to think of it this way, and recently posts a couple of statements in this regard. I don't remember if it was this thread or not.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

But notice what it is that God requires from us.

Confession and faith.

This had to be pointed out to me.

It was so simple I missed it.

If I confess my sins, He removes them, they are gone.

The confession isn't a magic potion. The key thing is the desire to have the sin removed.

Quote:

Notwithstanding our unworthiness, we are ever to bear in mind that there is One that can take away sin and save the sinner. Every sin acknowledged before God with a contrite heart, He will remove. This faith is the life of the church. As the serpent was lifted up in the wilderness by Moses, and all that had been bitten by the fiery serpents were bidden to look and live, so also the Son of man must be lifted up, that “whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”(TM 93;emphasis mine)

The underlined portion is what you're saying.

I'm curious in regards to your remark that this had to be pointed out to you. What is it you weren't understanding? And how did having whatever it was pointed out to you help you?

I'm asking in case the same issue you had comes up with someone else I meet, I'll be able to share your experience.

Simple really.

There is a teaching in Adventism and Christiniaty in general that you never really get rid of your sins.

That your "flesh" is always there, with the desires and lusts.

And that it is all a matter of constant battle between the flesh and the Spirit.

This is incorrect.

The simple act of confession gives God the permission to remove that sin totally.

Not just in heaven, but from the individual in person.

Does that make sense?

Mark :-)

[Robert]

Can one be saved without the will being involved?

Yes, children under the age of accountability.

[Robert]

That your "flesh" is always there, with the desires and lusts.

You retain your nature until you die.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

That your "flesh" is always there, with the desires and lusts.

You retain your nature until you die.

You would have to define nature, but if you mean "flesh" as "nature" then...

...That is not what Paul said:

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Notice the affections and lusts were included.

That is experiential, not just some legal "cooking of the books" in heaven.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

On a side note, I believe you are correct in your legal understanding of Christs death on the cross and how it applies to us Robert, as an application in the books of heaven.

But I sense from your posts you do not appreciate the experiental reality in your present experience of having your old man crucified.

It is like you have the money in the bank but refuse to draw it out.

Mark :-)

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

That your "flesh" is always there, with the desires and lusts.

You retain your nature until you die.

Yes. We overcome the inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil. God would not refer to us as overcomers if the obstacles had simply been removed.

[Overaged]

Yep, I'm saying that if we are saved first and obey later, there is no criterion for being saved and universalism or calvinism should be true.

All conformity to God's will is obedience. This includes all aspects of conversion. EGW refers to our involvement as "the right exercise of the will." The right exercise of the will is obedience to God's wooing. God does not propose to do either the willing or the doing which He has equipped us to do. Man must cooperate with God in the life-transformation of salvation. This is obedience.

OK. I am going to pretend I am a Calvinist for a little bit here in this topic. I am currently exchanging notes with one, so it might be beneficial to see where your belief on this point leads to.

If you say that we are not "saved first and obey later;" then you are saying the opposite of Calvinism. Calvinism states that we are saved first; and then, because Jesus died for our sins, past present and future, that we are, in effect, OSAS. They would reject what you state because of "obedience" coming first here, and your making the claim that we are saved by the blood of Christ and something else.

The naked hand of faith receiving God’s gift of redemption in Christ, his righteousness imputed to us, to our accounts, that’s sufficient. No works, no internal righteousness, no sanctification is required in order to be justified.

What does this mean? It means that even if my life doesn’t change from now on until my death or the second coming, even if I’m as evil as the devil, because of Christ’s righteousness imputed to me, I’m saved and I’ll be saved. As crazy as it may be, faith’s efficiency, faith’s effectiveness is not given by any intrinsic quality of it. Faith is effective, faith has power to accomplish its role not because of it’s quality (it is alive and not dead), but because of the object, Christ’s righteousness. I’m going to be in heaven not because my faith was genuine and the colleagues faith was not, but because Christ’s righteousness was imputed to my account.

[karl]

Quote:

The naked hand of faith receiving God’s gift of redemption in Christ, his righteousness imputed to us, to our accounts, that’s sufficient. No works, no internal righteousness, no sanctification is required in order to be justified.

The problem is that "the naked hand of faith receiving God's gift of redemption" is obedience. This is doing what God wants us to do. It is a "work" unless it is done to or for us. If God's saving grace is irresistible (if its saving power is forced upon us to the point we are saved) then Calvinism or Universalism is correct.

[pnattmbtc]

Is it the passive avoidance of a negative that constitutes the cooperation which allows Christ to justifiy and sanctify us?

If one does not frustrate God's grace by interposing a perverse will one will be saved, and not only saved, but made like unto Jesus. The context of the quote is "Be ye therefore perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." All those who do not frustrate God's grace by interposing a perverse will will reach this condition. Every one. Why?

For the reasons explained in the quote.

If we do not resist God, fight against Him, then He can accomplish that in us which He desires. He wins our will by the revelation of Himself, and when respond to that revelation rather than fight against it, there's no limit to what God can accomplish.

I think the conceptual problem is in not recognizing that every time we do not "labor" as we ought, the underlying reason is an active resistance/rebellion against God. The heart is not melted or subdued (as the quote brings out).

What is the key that drives the process? It's the attractive loveliness of Christ's character. Respond to this, rather than fight against it, and everything else will follow.

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding Calvinism, a key feature is that man's will is not involved, but only God's. So faith is simply an evidence of the fact that one is of the elect. One is saved for the simple reason that it was God's will to save that one. God alone decides who is of the elect, and those whom He decides are of the elect, He saves.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

Is it the passive avoidance of a negative that constitutes the cooperation which allows Christ to justifiy and sanctify us?

If one does not frustrate God's grace by interposing a perverse will one will be saved, and not only saved, but made like unto Jesus.

Sounds good in the saying of it, but let's try to examine it in practice. Doing nothing (avoiding a negative response) will not save us. It is by active cooperation in the plan of salvation that we are saved - not by the avoidance of doing wrong. This is why the book is entitled "Steps to Christ" rather than "Staying Put" or "Avoiding the Resistance." We must co-operate. We are laborers together with Christ not only in the salvation of others, but in the salvation of ourselves.

God justly condemns all who will not receive and believe in Christ as their personal Saviour. Christ is standing at the door of our hearts, longing to pardon all who will come unto Him that they may have life. O what words, what precious words are these! He is not merely merciful, but is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Our work is to hear His voice, open the door of our hearts, and welcome the heavenly Guest.

I know this is anathema to the Universalists and the Calvinists amongst us (and there are many of them) but there it is.

To be intelligently convinced is not enough. The apostle James writes: "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." Many there are who believe that Christ has died for the sins of the world, but they make no appropriation of this grand truth to their own souls. Their hearts are not enlisted in the service of God, their lives are not reformed. They are not sanctified by the truth they profess to believe. Not having the faith that works by love and purifies the soul, no genuine good appears in their lives.

No one who truly loves and fears God will continue to transgress the law in any particular. When man transgresses he is under the condemnation of the law, and it becomes to him a yoke of bondage. Whatever his profession may be he is not justified, which means pardoned.

You have been witnesses, He said, of My life of self-sacrifice in behalf of the world. You have seen that all who come to Me, confessing their sins, I freely receive. All who will, may be reconciled to God, and have everlasting life.

The absence of devotion, piety, and sanctification of the outer man comes through denying Jesus Christ our righteousness. The love of God needs to be constantly cultivated. Cultivated. This is active participation.

[pnattmbtc]

k:Sounds good in the saying of it, but let's try to examine it in practice. Doing nothing (avoiding a negative response) will not save us.

The resistance is active, not passive. God is actually doing something to save people! To *prevent* God from doing this, *you have to do something*! You have to interpose a perverse will and frustrate His grace.

If you don't do this, He will not only save you, He will make you like Jesus Christ.

This isn't a passive "avoidance" process, but an active process, where you cooperate with Christ. Why? Because your heart is melted and subdued by His grace, just like the quote says.

If the heart is melted and subdued, the will, the affections, everything else comes along. Then more works will be produced than can be imagined.

[karl]

This isn't a passive "avoidance" process, but an active process, where you cooperate with Christ.

[Overaged]

Quote:

The naked hand of faith receiving God’s gift of redemption in Christ, his righteousness imputed to us, to our accounts, that’s sufficient. No works, no internal righteousness, no sanctification is required in order to be justified.

The problem is that "the naked hand of faith receiving God's gift of redemption" is obedience. This is doing what God wants us to do. It is a "work" unless it is done to or for us. If God's saving grace is irresistible (if its saving power is forced upon us to the point we are saved) then Calvinism or Universalism is correct.

Well it qwould be nice to assume that God's saving grace is irresistable to everyone; but thats not even close to what I said. When the saving grace of God is accepted then comes the response of "obedience."