When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: John317

Yes, that's so important to keep in mind because we live at a time when the popular gospel is that we can't obey God's will anyway and that faith in Christ makes it unnecessary.

SDAs who study and accept the Investigative Judgment won't ever accept such a false teaching.

I am a strong supporter of this doctrine; but I have to say there are Christians of other pursuasions who would never say "we cannot obey God."

Yes there are some, but by and large they have bought the lie.

[John317]

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John317:

we live at a time when the popular gospel is that we can't obey God's will anyway and that faith in Christ makes it unnecessary.

SDAs who study and accept the Investigative Judgment won't ever accept such a false teaching.

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Overaged: I am a strong supporter of this doctrine; but I have to say there are Christians of other pursuasions who would never say "we cannot obey God."

This is true. I'm not saying that everyone who doesn't believe the IJ teaches that we can't obey the commandments.

But there are teachings held by many both inside and outside the SDA church which say that people can't obey the commandments of God. Some teach that we will continue to practice deliberate sin right up until either death or the second coming of Christ. Others teach that we can't overcome sin and that it doesn't matter whether we overcome them or not. All that matters is that we believe in Christ and have faith that he's saved us.

My point is simply that a clear understanding of the IJ protects us from many false teachings. I'm not saying that all these false teachings are held by those who don't believe in the Investigative Judgment.

[phkrause]

Quote:

John317:

we live at a time when the popular gospel is that we can't obey God's will anyway and that faith in Christ makes it unnecessary.

SDAs who study and accept the Investigative Judgment won't ever accept such a false teaching.

Quote:

Overaged: I am a strong supporter of this doctrine; but I have to say there are Christians of other pursuasions who would never say "we cannot obey God."

This is true. I'm not saying that everyone who doesn't believe the IJ teaches that we can't obey the commandments.

But there are teachings held by many both inside and outside the SDA church which say that people can't obey the commandments of God. Some teach that we will continue to practice deliberate sin right up until either death or the second coming of Christ. Others teach that we can't overcome sin and that it doesn't matter whether we overcome them or not. All that matters is that we believe in Christ and have faith that he's saved us.

My point is simply that a clear understanding of the IJ protects us from many false teachings. I'm not saying that all these false teachings are held by those who don't believe in the Investigative Judgment.

John I agree, with you and Richard on this point 100%, excellent posts guys.

[Robert]

Others teach that we can't overcome sin and that it doesn't matter whether we overcome them or not. All that matters is that

And those who teach that our assurance comes by our obedience always have that obedience sometime in the future.....It's cheap talk...It's talking about talking about it, but nothing every comes of it.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: John317

Others teach that we can't overcome sin and that it doesn't matter whether we overcome them or not. All that matters is that

And those who teach that our assurance comes by our obedience always have that obedience sometime in the future.....It's cheap talk...It's talking about talking about it, but nothing every comes of it.

Good point Robert - our "obedience" comes as a result of our assurance...which is Christ.

[Guest]

And those who teach that our assurance comes by our obedience always have that obedience sometime in the future.....It's cheap talk...It's talking about talking about it, but nothing every comes of it.

Not true. I've seen something come of it in the lives of countless others, as well as myself. I don't do the things I used to do. And I don't think the way I used to think. Same with the others I speak of. A changed life is hard evidence, and there's no refuting it.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Robert

And those who teach that our assurance comes by our obedience always have that obedience sometime in the future.....It's cheap talk...It's talking about talking about it, but nothing every comes of it.

Not true. I've seen something come of it in the lives of countless others, as well as myself. I don't do the things I used to do. And I don't think the way I used to think. Same with the others I speak of. A changed life is hard evidence, and there's no refuting it.

[pnattmbtc]

We do not fully surrender...we still retain our bent-to-self.

The bent-to-self you are speaking of is our nature, correct? That is, our sinful nature. Christ took this same nature, yet He was able to fully surrender, so this nature does not prevent one from fully surrendering. Also, from what you're written, you believe the 144,000 will fully surrender, right? So fully surrendering is possible, despite the sinful nature, from what you've written elsewhere.

[pnattmbtc]

These false teachings have caused many Seventh-day Adventists to give up the belief that Christ's work in heaven as our High Priest empowers us to obey Christ.

I agree with this point, but think it begs the point as to what Christ is doing to enable us to obey Him. I believe His chief work is the same as that which is designated the "whole purpose" of His earthly mission, which was "the revelation of God."

Christ sheds us light as to the true character of His Father. This truth sets us free.

[John317]

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John317: Others teach that we can't overcome sin and that it doesn't matter whether we overcome them or not. All that matters is that

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Robert: And those who teach that our assurance comes by our obedience always have that obedience sometime in the future.....It's cheap talk...It's talking about talking about it, but nothing every comes of it.

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Overaged: Good point Robert - our "obedience" comes as a result of our assurance...which is Christ.

Here's what the Bible says about the believers confidence:

Notice the Christian's confidence does not come from the fact that he made a profession of faith in Christ:

John 5:24

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 8:1

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit...

v. 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

John 14:21

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 John 2:29

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John 2:3

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:5-6

But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. [6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John 3:9-10

Whosoever is born of God doth not practice sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot practice sin, because he is born of God. [10] In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doth not practice righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (See NASB)

1 John 3:14

We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Acts 5:32

And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

1 John 5:11-13

[11]And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. [12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. [13]These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

John 8:11

She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. [i.e., do not go on practicing sin]

1 John 5:2-4

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. [3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. [4] For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 John 4:16

And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1 John 3:18-22

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. [19] And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. [20] For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. [21] Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. [22] And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

Romans 8:6-26

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. ... [13] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. [14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. ...[16] The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

[Overaged]

You have supplied a fine list of "obedience proof-texts." These are wonderful scripture verses that have been/are meaningful to many, but the problem comes when someone tries to make them all appear to say something that they actually do not.

All of these texts reinforce the idea that obedience is simply a result of surrendering to our Lord.

[John317]

They tell us the source of the Christian's confidence.

How do they say we may "know" we are in Christ and that God abides in us?

1 John 2:3

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:5-6

But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. [6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John 3:10

[10] In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doth not practice righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (See NASB)

1 John 3:14

We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1 John 5:2-4

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. [3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. [4] For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 John 4:16

And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1 John 3:[19] And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. [20] For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. [21] Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. [22] And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY IS THE GROUND OF OUR CONFIDENCE?

[John317]

Quote:

Overaged: All of these texts reinforce the idea that obedience is simply a result of surrendering to our Lord.

Yes, it is true that obedience is the result of truly surrendering to Christ. Therefore if we are not obeying Him, we can be sure we haven't fully surrendered to Him. It's a sure diagnosis.

(But some will say, instead, that no one obeys Him. That's a lie of Satan.)

Those verses mean, then, that if we haven't been obeying Him, we can't expect to have confidence. If we think we have confidence even while we are practicing sin, what we have is not genuine faith but the counterfeit article.

The believer's confidence is grounded in his relationship with Christ as he sees the proofs that Christ and the Holy Spirit are in His life.

But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. [6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John 3:[19] And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. [20] For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. [21] Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. [22] And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

[Overaged]

They tell us the source of the Christian's confidence.

How do they say we may "know" we are in Christ and that God abides in us?

1 John 2:3

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:5-6

But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. [6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John 3:10

[10] In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doth not practice righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (See NASB)

1 John 3:14

We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1 John 5:2-4

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. [3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. [4] For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 John 4:16

And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1 John 3:[19] And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. [20] For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. [21] Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. [22] And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY IS THE GROUND OF OUR CONFIDENCE?

Pro 3:26 For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.

[John317]

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JOHN 3:17: 1 John 3:[19] And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. [20] For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. [21] Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. [22] And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY IS THE GROUND OF OUR CONFIDENCE?

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Overaged: Pro 3:26 For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.

Who is this verse talking to?

Is it talking to people who are practicing known sin?

Is this verse a promise that I can expect God to keep if I am living in sin; that is, am not keeping His commandments?

Ellen White calls such confidence "presumption."

Prov. 3: 26 is similar in its message to Jude 24:

Jude 1:24

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.

[Overaged]

Quote:

Overaged: All of these texts reinforce the idea that obedience is simply a result of surrendering to our Lord.

Yes, it is true that obedience is the result of truly surrendering to Christ. Therefore if we are not obeying Him, we can be sure we haven't fully surrendered to Him. It's a sure diagnosis.

(But some will say, instead, that no one obeys Him. That's a lie of Satan.)

This lie of Satan is more believed because of Adventists who teach the legalistic view of "obedience" and attach merit to it that only belongs to Christ.

[Overaged]

quote]Overaged: Pro 3:26 For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken./quote]

Who is this verse talking to?

Is it talking to people who are practicing known sin?

Is this verse a promise that I can expect God to keep if I am living in sin and am not keeping His commandments?

The Lord can be anyone's confidence even if they do not "obey" in all the things you do. This promise is not restricted to Adventists who preach a legalistic view of obedience which says that obedience is a barrier between us and the Savior.

[John317]

Quote:

Overaged:

This lie of Satan is more believed because of Adventists who teach the legalistic view of "obedience" and attach merit to it that only belongs to Christ.

There is no "merit" in obedience but at the same time no one will be saved without obedience.

[John317]

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JOHN 3:17: Who is this verse talking to?

Is it talking to people who are practicing known sin?

Is this verse a promise that I can expect God to keep if I am living in sin and am not keeping His commandments?

Quote:

Overaged: The Lord can be anyone's confidence even if they do not "obey" in all the things you do. This promise is not restricted to Adventists who preach a legalistic view of obedience which says that obedience is a barrier between us and the Savior.

Is the promise in Prov. 3: 26 for people who want their foot to be taken? Will God force us to be free of sin?

I'm not an SDA who preaches a legalistic view of obedience.

But what does the Bible say separates us from God?

Doesn't it say our sins separate us from God? Check out Jer. 33: 5, for instance.

They come to fight with the Chaldeans, but it is only to fill their places with the dead bodies of men, whom I have slain in mine anger and in my fury, and for all whose wickedness I have hid my face from this city.

How many chershed sins will keep you and me out of heaven?

Jude was inspired by the Holy Spirit to tell us:

Jude 1:4

For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Same message here:

Romans 6:1

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Romans 6:15

What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

1 John 2:1-6

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. [2] He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. [3] And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, [5] but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: [6] whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

[John317]

You got that right, Richard. And when a believer can look back over a lifetime of God's leading and he can see the proof that God has been directing His life-- nothing can shake that knowledge and experience. That's the message of much of 1 John. It's the kind of knowledge and experience those people will have to have who go through the time of trouble and are translated at the second coming of Christ.

[John317]

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John317: Others teach that we can't overcome sin and that it doesn't matter whether we overcome them or not. All that matters is that

Quote:

Overaged: our "obedience" comes as a result of our assurance...which is Christ.

Is there a Bible verse you can think of which teaches that our obedience comes as a result of our assurance?

What kind of assurance do you mean?

The verses I posted earlier teach clearly that our assurance comes from the Holy Spirit as a result of a life of loving obedience to God and to His commandments. It's experiential proof that God has been leading us.

Look at Paul's testimony at the end of his life:

2 Tim. 1:12

.... But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me.

2 Tim. 4:7-8

I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. [8] Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.

Our lives will tell whether we have loved His appearing.

[Twilight]

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Overaged:

This lie of Satan is more believed because of Adventists who teach the legalistic view of "obedience" and attach merit to it that only belongs to Christ.

There is no "merit" in obedience but at the same time no one will be saved without obedience.

Obedience is the only real fruit of an individual who has accepted the Merits of Christ... :-)

If no obedience is evidenced, then the merits have not been applied at all.

They are like a poem in a book on a dusty old bookshelf.

Some want to build up a library of "no responsibility", but that is not biblical.

God wants to write in our hearts, not just in our minds.

One is intelligent assent the other is experience.

Intelligent assent without experience is the greatest sin of both liberals and conservatives in my mind.

[karl]

Intelligent assent without experience is the greatest sin of both liberals and conservatives in my mind.

Ye have not because ye ask not.

The forensic legalist doesn't ask because he thinks he's already got it.

The do-it-yourself legalist doesn't think to ask because he's so busy working for it.

James tells us how to ask - in faith, nothing wavering.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Overaged:

This lie of Satan is more believed because of Adventists who teach the legalistic view of "obedience" and attach merit to it that only belongs to Christ.

John:There is no "merit" in obedience but at the same time no one will be saved without obedience.

One could say the same thing regarding faith. That is, there is no "merit" in faith but at the same time no one will be saved without faith.

[karl]

Quote:

Overaged:

This lie of Satan is more believed because of Adventists who teach the legalistic view of "obedience" and attach merit to it that only belongs to Christ.

One could say the same thing regarding faith. That is, there is no "merit" in faith but at the same time no one will be saved without faith.

Let us not allow "fear of legalism" to develop into a downplaying of obedience or of faith. Rather than speaking of "righteousness by faith" which, by now, has lost all meaning, let us promote "obedience by faith."