When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

He didn't really lose His Son, did He? The form of God He relinquished for ever but the glories of the form of God He only relinquished for a while.

Yes, Phil. 2: 9-11 as well as John 17: 5, 24 indicate that Christ gave up the glory only for a while, and this glory of being of the Godhead has been restored to Him.

Yet when Christ sacrificed Himself (Heb. 9: 14) and became human, He gave up a part of Himself for eternity, and God lost the Son that He had had. The Father only had one being in all the universe that was a perfect reflection of His character and glory. That was the Word, the pre-existent, self-existent, eternal Son of God, "the only begotten Son." Christ "is the image of the invisible God," "the brightness of God's glory." He is the only One who shows God's character and glory.

But now Jesus Christ will forever be in human form. That means that there's a very real sense in which Christ no longer can perfectly reflect the glory of God the Father.

Why?

Because Christ took two steps down from what He was before. It would be somewhat comparable to humans becoming an insect, one step below the animals.

Christ did not step down from the Godhead to being an angel. That would have been humiliation enough. But Christ took one additional step down, to becoming a man. And that is what He will be throughout eternity.

Both God the Father and the Son truly sacrificed themselves forever for our salvation. We probably will require an eternity to completely grasp what that means.

John, the only thing that Jesus surrendered forever is the form of God, not His divinity. Now He is God/man sitting on the throne. His humanity is clothed with the glories of the form of God and so will the redeemed be. This is almost too good to be true but it is true. Christ is more exalted now than He was before He left the heavenly courts to take the form and fashion of a man. And the Father loves Him more since He was willing to die for us. And the redeemed are loved by the Father as much as He loves Jesus. Throughout eternity we will learn more and more what it means to have the merits of His great sacrifice imputed to us.

sky

[John317]

History shows that She did flee to the wilderness (this world) She was here since Jesus was in Heaven.

Explain the use of the word "flee" in Rev. 12: 6. What is signified by that word? Who is "she" fleeing from and why?

Notice that the woman flees to the wilderness after the birth of Christ, and therefore it can't be talking about the Holy Spirit coming to this world, since the Holy Spirit clearly came to this world long before the birth of Jesus Christ.

Besides, the Bible nowhere speaks of this inhabited earth as a desert place, or wilderness. Some parts of it are a wilderness but the earth itself, after creation and between the time of Christ and the present time, is not called "a desert place." If you know of such a verse, please quote it.

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During the Dark Ages, She was not involved with anyone because of the prophecy in Matthew 21:43 and Dan. 8:14.

Rev. 1-3 shows that the Spirit has been speaking to the churches all through history, including to those churches described in Rev. 2: 12-29. The Reformation wouldn't have taken place except through the work of the Holy Spirit. I find it impossible believe that the Holy Spirit wasn't working through people such as Martin Luther, John Knox and William Tyndale.

All through the history of the church, God has had his people and has been guiding and teaching them by His Spirit.

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She remained hidden until 1844 when the Kingdom of Heaven was set up by God. This is the Kingdom that will last forever.

What do you mean the Holy Spirit "remained hidden until 1844"? That would mean the entire Advent movement occurred without the Holy Spirit. It would mean the Holy Spirit wasn't convicting minds and hearts before 1844.

The prophecy is that "she" would be fed or taken care of for 1, 260 days. When was that? Who "nourished," "fed,"& "supported" the Holy Spirit? And why did the Third Person of the Godhead need to be "fed" during this period?

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But anyway--I thought we hashed this out already? Didn't we?

You mentioned it but it was only superficially discussed. I did not know you believed what you've expressed on this post. I'm no longer surprised at anything.

[John317]

John, the only thing that Jesus surrendered forever is the form of God, not His divinity.

I didn't mean to give the impression I believed Christ is not divine. I certainly believe Jesus Christ is fully God and equal with the Father. No doubt. He never ceased to be God while in the flesh.

What I'm saying is that He is forever human, the God-man. He will never again be in the form of God. He's eternally in the form of "a servant." When Christ became man and grew up from childhood to maturity and went through the experiences of being a human, that changed Him forever. He has a human personality. I don't think we've begun to grasp what that means. His experience with Satan and His struggles against sin had to have made an influence on his thinking and on how he perceives humanity and sin. He truly became one of us and views us differently now than he would have if he'd never lived as a man. He knows our sufferings, our temptations, and what it's like be a creature dependent on God. He can't go back to being as He was before He became flesh. There's a very real sense in which the Father gave up that person forever. It would be like a father giving up his son for his country. The son goes off to war and when he comes back he's different-- not the same son that left. He has scars or maybe he's lost a leg and he thinks differently. That is sort of what I mean by saying the Father gave up His Son forever. But again, the Father gave up a Son but He gained millions and millions of sons who will reflect His character.

Let me know your thoughts.

[Twilight]

The man of Romans 7 is intellectually converted but still a slave to sin. He knows what the law demands and he wills to do it but cannot perform it. He sins against his own will. The will to do what is good is not lacking but how to perform it he does not know. But through the merits of Christ he finds the power to free him from the law of sin and death.

sky

Exactly.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

The man of Romans 7 is intellectually converted but still a slave to sin.

That's exactly it. And notice that Romans 7: 13-25, the entire section describing him, says absolutely nothing about the Spirit. I think that's a key. He is a man trying to do it all on his own strength. That's a prescription for certain failure. By contrast, chapter 8, which describes victory in Christ, refers to the Spirit in almost every verse.

It is a real pleasure brethren, to see these things understood and discussed. :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

John, the only thing that Jesus surrendered forever is the form of God, not His divinity.

I didn't mean to give the impression I believed Christ is not divine. I certainly believe Jesus Christ is fully God and equal with the Father. No doubt. He never ceased to be God while in the flesh.

What I'm saying is that He is forever human, the God-man. He will never again be in the form of God. He's eternally in the form of "a servant." When Christ became man and grew up from childhood to maturity and went through the experiences of being a human, that changed Him forever. He has a human personality. I don't think we've begun to grasp what that means. His experience with Satan and His struggles against sin had to have made an influence on his thinking and on how he perceives humanity and sin. He truly became one of us and views us differently now than he would have if he'd never lived as a man. He knows our sufferings, our temptations, and what it's like be a creature dependent on God. He can't go back to being as He was before He became flesh. There's a very real sense in which the Father gave up that person forever. It would be like a father giving up his son for his country. The son goes off to war and when he comes back he's different-- not the same son that left. He has scars or maybe he's lost a leg and he thinks differently. That is sort of what I mean by saying the Father gave up His Son forever. But again, the Father gave up a Son but He gained millions and millions of sons who will reflect His character.

Let me know your thoughts.

This is my understanding as well. :-)

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

John, the only thing that Jesus surrendered forever is the form of God, not His divinity.

I didn't mean to give the impression I believed Christ is not divine. I certainly believe Jesus Christ is fully God and equal with the Father. No doubt. He never ceased to be God while in the flesh.

What I'm saying is that He is forever human, the God-man. He will never again be in the form of God. He's eternally in the form of "a servant." When Christ became man and grew up from childhood to maturity and went through the experiences of being a human, that changed Him forever. He has a human personality. I don't think we've begun to grasp what that means. His experience with Satan and His struggles against sin had to have made an influence on his thinking and on how he perceives humanity and sin. He truly became one of us and views us differently now than he would have if he'd never lived as a man. He knows our sufferings, our temptations, and what it's like be a creature dependent on God. He can't go back to being as He was before He became flesh. There's a very real sense in which the Father gave up that person forever. It would be like a father giving up his son for his country. The son goes off to war and when he comes back he's different-- not the same son that left. He has scars or maybe he's lost a leg and he thinks differently. That is sort of what I mean by saying the Father gave up His Son forever. But again, the Father gave up a Son but He gained millions and millions of sons who will reflect His character.

Let me know your thoughts.

John, i just wanted to make sure I understood you correctly, that Christ never relinquished His divinity even when He became one of us and that He is still fully God. That is settled. Thank you.

Mind you, even before He took upon Himself our sinful flesh, before He came in the form and fashion of a man, Christ knew what was in man. "But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man." John 2;24,25. For "In Him we live and move and have our being." Acts 17:28. He needed not to become a man to learn something about what it is like to be a man in this world or any other created beings. "Not only is He the Originator of all but He is the life of everything that lives." Education,197. And for that very reason "He has an intimate knowledge of and a personal interest in all the works of His hands." Education,132. By the Spirit, Christ is "the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all," "moving in all things according to His will." See Education, p.14; M.H.416. On page 120 of the book Education, it is said there that this earth is filled with the presence of Him who once dwelt among men! Stupendous truth!!!By His Spirit He is everywhere present. "Where shall I go from your Spirit? Where shall I flee from your presence?" Psalm 137:9. This is speaking of Christ for "In Him all things hold together." Col.1:17. "He is." Heb.11:6.

However, I will admit that by coming in the flesh Christ was tempted and tested by the enemy of all righteousness beyond anything we will ever be able to comprehend and yet without sinning. In that we may learn something and we will have eternity to study it but can it be said that by becoming a man, He learned something He didn't know before? I don't think so. He knew everything that was going to happen from all eternity and that did not change Him one iota. "I the Lord change not." "He is the same yesterday, today, and forever."

Christ is very special to us since He became our brother. He shared our sorrows and was tempted in all points like as we are yet without sinning. We are very special to Him and only eternity will unravel what that means to us and to Him. He is our pearl of great price and we are his pearls of great price!

"The declaration in His intercessory prayer, that the Father's love is as great toward us as toward Himself, the only-begotton Son, and that we shall be with Him where He is, forever one with Christ and the Father, is a marvel to the heavenly host, and it is their great joy. The gift of the Spirit, rich, full, and abundant, is to be to His church as an encompassing wall of fire, which the powers of hell shall not prevail against. In their untainted purity and spotless perfection, Christ looks upon His people as the reward of all His suffering, His humiliation, and His love, and the supplement of His glory--Christ, the great center from which radiates all glory. 'Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.'" T.M.18,19.

This statement speaks of the elevation of the redeemed to the throne of God to a position much higher than the angels who have never sinned. And to the angels, it is a marvel and their geat joy!!! How unselfish they are. "By gentle and patient ministry they move upon the human spirit, to bring the lost into a fellowship with Christ which is even closer than they themselves can know." D.A.20.

The redeemed are the "supplement" of His glory!!!

Who can fathom the fullness of the blessing of the Gospel of Christ? Eternity alone will reveal it.

"Thank God for His unspeakable gift." 2 Cor.9:15.

sky

[John317]

Mind you, even before He took upon Himself our sinful flesh, before He came in the form and fashion of a man, Christ knew what was in man.

Yes, the pre-existent Christ, like the Father and the Holy Spirit, was omniscient. But remember that when we speak of Jesus Christ, the man, we are talking about a human who was totally dependent on God for his knowledge and wisdom. Jesus the man did not know all things. He only knew what God revealed to Him.

Jesus, of course, had both a human and a divine nature, and He still does. He is the God-man. He has a human personality, which the pre-existent Christ did not have before He became flesh. The human personality was molded and influenced by the life he lived on earth.

The Bible says that this person "learned obedience by the things which He suffered." That is the same as saying He learned something from His human experiences that He didn't know before.

I'm not saying God learned something. I'm saying the man Jesus learned something. There's a difference.

The man Jesus was tempted to sin. God was not tempted and cannot be tempted by sin, but the human nature of Christ was tempted.

Therefore, when we speak of Jesus learning something about life by experiencing it as a human, we're not implying that the divine nature of Christ didn't know mankind. After all, it was the pre-existent Christ who made human beings, and He knew all things.

But the human, Jesus of Nazareth, didn't know all things. He had to learn in the same way that we learn. For instance, he learned from his father how to build and how to make things in the carpentry shop. He had to learn to read. And he "learned" obedience. This learning experience helped him develop his human character and personality.

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"But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man." John 2;24,25.

This is speaking of the mature, adult Jesus, who had been learning and listening to the Holy Spirit for the last 30 years. Jesus was dependent on the Father for all things. He Himself said, "I can of myself do nothing." John 5: 30.

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For "In Him we live and move and have our being." Acts 17:28.

This is absolutely true. The Son of God not only created the universe and everything in it but ever since the creation, He had been upholding the universe and keeping it from collapsing. Heb. 1: : 2, 3; Col. 1: 16, 17.

But remember, again, that Jesus had two natures-- the divine and the human. As Ellen White says, the man Jesus was not Almighty God.

There is no one who can explain the mystery of the incarnation of Christ. Yet we know that He came to this earth and lived as a man among men. The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one. The Deity did not sink under the agonizing torture of Calvary, yet it is nonetheless true that "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." {5BC 1129. 1130}

[John317]

He needed not to become a man to learn something about what it is like to be a man in this world or any other created beings.

Jesus came to the world as a human being, that He might become acquainted with human beings, and come close to them in their need. He was born a babe in Bethlehem. He grew up as other children grew. And from youth to manhood, during the whole of His earthly life, He was assailed by Satan's fiercest temptations. {ST, October 17, 1900 par. 9}

Christ lived a human life that He might be man's example in all things. He endured temptation even as every human being must endure. He believed [i.e., trusted] God, as we must believe. He learned obedience, even as we are required to learn obedience. And He overcame, as we must overcome. His path lay through manifold temptations; therefore He knows how to succor those who are tempted. {ST, October 17, 1900 par. 13}

NOTE: Christ knows better how to succor us in temptation because of His own temptations.

"We have not an High Priest which can not be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted."

{ST, October 17, 1900 par. 15}

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I will admit that by coming in the flesh Christ was tempted and tested by the enemy of all righteousness beyond anything we will ever be able to comprehend and yet without sinning. In that we may learn something and we will have eternity to study it but can it be said that by becoming a man, He learned something He didn't know before? I don't think so.

I don't believe that the pre-existent Christ learned anything, but Jesus of Nazareth was not merely the pre-existent Christ. Jesus Christ was not merely God but He was and is also man, and it was that personality that underwent change and learned from His experiences. It was that person, the man Jesus Christ, who returned to heaven and is now our faithful and merciful High Priest.

".... In the days of His flesh, ... He offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of his godly fear, though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." Heb. 5: 7, 8.

Hebrews 2: 10 says that "it was fitting" that Jesus Christ should be "made perfect through sufferings."

"Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest.... For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted." Heb. 2: 17, 18.

"Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed into the Heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast to our profession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need." Heb. 4: 14-16.

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He knew everything that was going to happen from all eternity and that did not change Him one iota.

Yes, as God, He knew. But as a human, He didn't know the end from the beginning.

While on the cross, for instance, the human Jesus could not see through the portals of the tomb.

As a man, He only knew the future on the basis of what God revealed to Him and from what He studied in the prophecies.

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"I the Lord change not." "He is the same yesterday, today, and forever."

Divinity doesn't change, but the human personality of Jesus underwent changes from the time He was born as a baby until His death on the cross.

I'm very interested in your thoughts and responses to this, sky.

[Just*]

"John did not teach that salvation was to be earned by obedience; but that obedience was the fruit of faith and love. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins," he said, "and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in the heart, our feelings, our thoughts, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God. The sanctified heart is in harmony with the precepts of God's law." {AA 563.1}

[peacemaker]

When i first heard this quote in chapel at Atlantic Union College in 1975 by James Londis, I was filled with consternation! Who could ever be this perfect?? From a legalistic viewpoint one could stand in front of the next train with the utter frustration of knowing that one infraction would cause the frown of the Savior, "You delayed my coming again!!??" Then I read EGW on the subject: "What kind of witnesses are we for truth and righteousness? Are we striving with all our God-given powers to reach the measure of the stature of men and women in Christ? Are we seeking for His fulness, ever reaching higher and higher, trying to attain to the perfection of His character?' {RH, February 7, 1957 par. 22} YOu can look at this statement in two ways: achieving my perfection through good works or perfecting in my mind the character of Christ. These are two entirely different ways of understanding perfection: is it my perfection or the perfection of the character of Christ. The thief was perfect in Christ at the moment his mind was converted to the character of the Person dying on the cross beside him. When that happened he was perfected because he believed in the perfect character of Christ and not what the spitters, head waggers, synagogists, and rabble accused Him of; the thief even rejected his own fellow thief and said "Lord remember me when yo come in your kingdom". That perfect kingdom that in that short time he visualized in his soul by faith made him perfect in Christ!

When we really dissect what the perfection of the character of Christ means today it will get our mind off our own character delay tactics and will in fact hasten the coming of the Lord! For why will He not want to return with alacrity to a people that really know Him for Who He is?!! Once this thought germinated in my miind I became a free man, no longer bound under the curse of the Law! But don't get me wrong, a person studying the perfectio of the Chracter of Christ will do right because it is right not out of fear or hope of reward. God's last day people will be identified in this way restating Revelation 12:17: "Here are they through the faith of Jesus [believing in the perfect character of Christ] keep all of God's commandments!" It is all based on motivation of admiration, trust, respect and Love! Peacemaker

[peacemaker]

Peacemaker here again:

Below is the more matured quote of EGW on this subject of the endtime being determined by attaining or the lack thereof of character perfection. Remember the point is not my character perfection!!! But do I believe in the perfection of the character of Christ?? This is borne out in 1 John 1:5 when John so joyously and excitedly preaches the definition of the Gospel is that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all; [perfect and in Him is no imperfection at all] [good and no evil at all in Him]

When I hear of the ghastly and imperfect ideas floating about God even from those who "interpret" the scriptures, this is the real reason for the delay!!! Church: Let's purify our thoughts of imperfect ideas of God. One has said,: "Unbelief is to think evil of God"

"Are we seeking for His fullness, ever pressing toward the mark set before us--the perfection of His character? When the Lord's people reach this mark, they will be sealed in their foreheads. Filled with the Spirit, they will be complete in Christ, and the recording angel will declare, "It is finished." {HP 335.5}"

[Dr. Rich]

Great post Just* How come we have to have the same 'character' of Jesus? What about Peter's character or David's? Don't we all have our own character? Jesus said to be righteous regardless the character--right? He said to obey what He said--period. Isn't this simple?

[skyblue888]

During the latter rain the people of God will grow up into Christ until they reflect Him fully, until the full corn of His character is in the ear. See Mark 4:26-29. They will be transformed by the manifold grace of the Holy Spirit so that each one of the redeemed will reflect Christ's character within his own sanctified individuality.

Here is the secret of growth in Christ:

"Habitually dwelling upon Christ and His all-sufficient merits increases faith, quickens the power of spiritual discernment, strengthens the desire to be like Him, and brings an earnestness into prayer that makes it efficacious." E.G.W. Gospel Worker, p.166.

"Looking unto Jesus and trusting in His merits we appropriate the blessings of light and peace and joy in the Holy Ghost." Testimonies, Vol.5, p.744.

At this time, the true people of God make it their life business to behold the uplifted Saviour and to accept His merits which they believe it is their privilege to claim. They understand that this is the only way the sinner can be saved, the only way he can attain to righteousness, to perfect conformity to the will of God as it is expressed in the precepts of His holy law. See T.M.93; F.W.101; S.C.61.

"As the members of the body of Christ approach the period of their last conflict, 'the time of Jacob's trouble,' they will grow up into Christ, and will partake largely of His Spirit. As the third message swells to a loud cry, and as great power and glory attend the closing work, the faithful people of God will partake of that glory. It is the latter rain which revives and strengthens them to pass through the time of trouble. Their faces will shine with the glory of that light which attends the third angel." Testimonies, Vol.1, p.353.

sky

[Dr. Rich]

Hey Sky--what 'latter rain'? Just were do you find that Jesus ever said anything about a latter rain? Don't we NOW have the Holy Spirit? If so, then why the need for some type of 'latter rain'?

[Juanita]

Christ told his deciples that since they saw and knew Him, they also saw and knew God (the Father). Becauses Christ and God the father are one.

So, if we live in Christ's presence aren't we already living in the presence of God. And, if Christ is our mediator before God the Father...and they are one...aren't we already living without a mediator before God?

(I really do enjoy Graham Maxwell's writings!)

[Dr. Rich]

Juanita, good quetion(s)--The Father is NOT the Son. But they are ONE in the same Spirit. John wrote about this in the last part of John 17. Yes, we can be 'one' with the Father by this same Spirit even though we are not living in the real presence of God the Father or God the Son since both the Father and the Son are in heaven which is a real place.

[skyblue888]

Christ told his deciples that since they saw and knew Him, they also saw and knew God (the Father). Becauses Christ and God the father are one.

So, if we live in Christ's presence aren't we already living in the presence of God. And, if Christ is our mediator before God the Father...and they are one...aren't we already living without a mediator before God?

(I really do enjoy Graham Maxwell's writings!)

Heaven is a ceaseless approach unto God through the all-sufficient merits of Jesus Christ.

sky

[skyblue888]

Hey Sky--what 'latter rain'? Just were do you find that Jesus ever said anything about a latter rain? Don't we NOW have the Holy Spirit? If so, then why the need for some type of 'latter rain'?

If you don't know what the "latter rain" is about, either you are not a seventh-day adventist or you just became one and have not heard about it yet.

It was Christ who spoke through the prophets of old.

See Jer.5:24; Zechariah 10:1; Deut.11;14.

Then read Testimonies to Ministers, beginning on page 506.

sky

[Musicman1228]

skyblue888,

All of those texts you cited concern real rain for real harvests; water for the ground at the proper seasons to grow crops. They actually have nothing to do with a spiritual 'latter rain' that is supposed to come upon the faithful just before the end.

EGW does speak of a latter rain in those terms; and I would like you to show me where Jesus Christ speaks in prophecy the He has given where there is a reference to a spiritual 'latter rain'. It does not exist.

And as Dr. Rich pointed out if we have already been given the Holy Spirit by Jesus Christ (just as He promised) then why would He have to give us more? If you have received the Holy Spirit there would be no need for you to receive Him/Her again, would there?

[Dr. Rich]

Sky wrote: "If you don't know what the "latter rain" is about, either you are not a seventh-day adventist or you just became one and have not heard about it yet."

Sky, I very nicely asked you a question. All this time I thought you were a nice guy, not some wiseguy. I am almost 65 and have been a SDA all my life and knew what you know--but that was NOT my question--was it? I you can't answer, say so.

From what I have seen you write--it is someone's fictional opinion--and did not come from Jesus Christ. Just as "the merits of Christ" are also some fictional opinion.

[Gerr]

When i first heard this quote in chapel at Atlantic Union College in 1975 by James Londis, I was filled with consternation! Who could ever be this perfect?? From a legalistic viewpoint one could stand in front of the next train with the utter frustration of knowing that one infraction would cause the frown of the Savior, "You delayed my coming again!!??" Then I read EGW on the subject: "What kind of witnesses are we for truth and righteousness? Are we striving with all our God-given powers to reach the measure of the stature of men and women in Christ? Are we seeking for His fulness, ever reaching higher and higher, trying to attain to the perfection of His character?' {RH, February 7, 1957 par. 22} YOu can look at this statement in two ways: achieving my perfection through good works or perfecting in my mind the character of Christ. These are two entirely different ways of understanding perfection: is it my perfection or the perfection of the character of Christ. The thief was perfect in Christ at the moment his mind was converted to the character of the Person dying on the cross beside him. When that happened he was perfected because he believed in the perfect character of Christ and not what the spitters, head waggers, synagogists, and rabble accused Him of; the thief even rejected his own fellow thief and said "Lord remember me when yo come in your kingdom". That perfect kingdom that in that short time he visualized in his soul by faith made him perfect in Christ!

When we really dissect what the perfection of the character of Christ means today it will get our mind off our own character delay tactics and will in fact hasten the coming of the Lord! For why will He not want to return with alacrity to a people that really know Him for Who He is?!! Once this thought germinated in my miind I became a free man, no longer bound under the curse of the Law! But don't get me wrong, a person studying the perfectio of the Chracter of Christ will do right because it is right not out of fear or hope of reward. God's last day people will be identified in this way restating Revelation 12:17: "Here are they through the faith of Jesus [believing in the perfect character of Christ] keep all of God's commandments!" It is all based on motivation of admiration, trust, respect and Love! Peacemaker

Are you here saying/advocating mental conversion without character change?

[wayfinder]

If you read all of the accounts in the gospels about the two thieves, you will find that the one in Luke is unique to Luke. Matthew, an eyewitness to the event and Mark, writing the words of an eyewitness (Peter), give a very different account. In the eyewitness accounts, both thieves hurl insults and blasphemies at the Son of God the whole time. Who is telling the truth; I believe the account given by the two eyewitnesses. This is not the only place where Luke’s account of events differs greatly from the eyewitness accounts.

[John317]

The simple explanation is that for a while both thieves hurled insults at Christ but as one of them observed Christ and was touched by the Holy Spirit, his attitude changed. There is nothing hard to understand about that.

[wayfinder]

What is hard to understand is how Luke knows this not having been there, the eyewitnesses give no such account, this is only supposition to try and reconcile the difference. I stand by the testimony of the two eyewitnesses, Matthew and Peter. These two witnesses say that the two thieves were railing insults at the Son of God up to the time He died, He was not alive to converse with a penitent thief.

De 19:15

" A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed.

2Co 13:1

This is the third time I am coming to you. EVERY FACT IS TO BE CONFIRMED BY THE TESTIMONY OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES.