Guest Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 until sin entered..... That's the part you need the text for. I know the other part. Quote
Guest Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 So he gave the 4th commandment some time off? Quote
Robert Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert until sin entered..... That's the part you need the text for. I know the other part. Why would God ask you to rest when His rest no longer pointed to a sinless world? Besides, immediately God set out to save the world....That's work...not rest....And He worked and worked until the cross.....Then He rested again.....but if I tell you about this truth I bet you'll reject it....Hence, the gospel first needs to be restored. Quote
Guest Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; Psa 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Quote
Guest Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Quote
Dr. Rich Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 How about that--yes, it does say that. And it all has not been fullfilled yet. But the writer of Romans would want people to think that it has all been fullfilled. His mistake was that he claims Jesus' death was the atonement. Not so, as even Jesus said He was the passover lamb--not the atonement. The Atonement is yet to happen. Jesus was our high priest-and He said He became sanctified so that we can too become sanctified. Next group is the Priests (the 144k). After they are sealed/sanctified, then the 5 wise virgins. Well, it should be over, but for the acts of the saints (144k and the 5 wise) during the time of trouble. It's that simple! Quote
skyblue888 Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: skyblue888 the garden of Eden was untouched by the curse and was removed and transferred to Heaven. The Sabbath still points to the garden of Eden, that perfect creation where our citizenship is. Dude...good try, but your grasping at straws....God created Eden, true, but He also created the whole world....This world, has been ruined. Rob called me "dude" wow im honored hehe "The Garden of Eden remained upon the earth long after man had become an outcast from its pleasant paths. The fallen race were long permitted to gaze upon the home of innocence, their entrance barred only by the watching angels. At the cherubim-guarded gate of Paradise the divine glory was revealed. Hither came Adam and his sons to worship God. Here they renewed their vows of obedience to that law the transgression of which had banished them from Eden. When the tide of iniquity overspread the world, and the wickedness of men determined their destruction by a flood of waters, the hand that had planted Eden withdrew it from the earth. But in the final restitution, when there shall be "a new heaven and a new earth" (Revelation 21:1), it is to be restored more gloriously adorned than at the beginning. Then they that have kept God's commandments shall breathe in immortal vigor beneath the tree of life; and through unending ages the inhabitants of sinless worlds shall behold, in that garden of delight, a sample of the perfect work of God's creation, untouched by the curse of sin--a sample of what the whole earth would have become, had man but fulfilled the Creator's glorious plan." P.P.62. The garden of Eden is our original home and it has been preserved. It was not touched by the curse. Thus it is written, "Our citizenship is in Heaven." Phil.3:20. "Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ." 2 Cor.5:20. Ambassadors of our heavenly country. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Guest Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 How about that--yes, it does say that. And it all has not been fullfilled yet. But the writer of Romans would want people to think that it has all been fullfilled. Paul didn't say all was fulfilled. Quote
Dr. Rich Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 RH wrote: "Paul didn't say all was fulfilled." Ok, but that is what I read in Romans 10:4. If Jesus was the fulfillment of the law, then what is left? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted August 13, 2009 Moderators Posted August 13, 2009 But the writer of Romans would want people to think that it has all been fullfilled. His mistake was that he claims Jesus' death was the atonement. Not so, as even Jesus said He was the passover lamb--not the atonement. There were two aspects to the atonement: there was the sacrifice, the shedding of the animal's blood, and there there was the taking of the blood into the sanctuary. Both processes were necessary in order to complete the atonement. Look at Romans 3: 21-26, where Paul describes the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. He says Christ was set forth to be a sacrifice of atonement [Gk. hilasterion--mercy seat] for us, or a place of reconciliation, and that we are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. Nowhere does Paul teach that the entire process of atonement was finished at the cross. If you understand him to teach this, where does he say it plainly? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 13, 2009 Moderators Posted August 13, 2009 RH wrote: "Paul didn't say all was fulfilled." Ok, but that is what I read in Romans 10:4. If Jesus was the fulfillment of the law, then what is left? Christ is certainly the end of the law for righteousness [as a way to right standing with God] for everyone who puts his trust-- confidence, faith, reliance-- in Him. Aren't you glad that this is true? I can't imagine having to obey law perfectly in order to earn God's favor and be put in right relationship with Him. Who would be saved if that was the requirement? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 John, correct me if I am wrong but when Christ died upon the cross, "the condition" for the atonement was fulfilled (see A.A.29, last parg) but Christ did not begin to atone for sin until He ascended up on High. See F.W.105. There He began to plead His divine merits in the offering of Himself to the Father as our substitute and surety. He ascended up on High to make an atonement for our transgressions and on the 22nd of October 1844 He began the final phase of the atonement. Does not Paul say that Christ could not be a priest while on earth? "For if He were on earth, He could not be a priest.." Rom.8:4. He began His priesthood when He ascended up on High and then He began the atonement. Right? sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Dr. Rich Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 But John, there is a world of difference between the Passover sacrifice and the Atonement sacrifice! The atonement was not at the same time as the Passover. That whole process was at a different time and for a complete different purpose. You will not find anywhere in the words of Jesus where He said His death would be a sacrifice of atonement. You know--this ONE point or issue is what has caused all of the confusion in order to have so many different 'faith' or Christian denominations. And this is MY main beef with the writer of Romans! Quote
Moderators John317 Posted August 13, 2009 Moderators Posted August 13, 2009 You will not find anywhere in the words of Jesus where He said His death would be a sacrifice of atonement. Mark 10: 45, "For the Son of Man.... [came] to give His life a ransom for many." (cf. Matt. 20: 28). Check out Is. 53: 5, 6, 8, 10, 11, 12. Notice in particular: "The Lord laid on Him [the Suffering Servant, Christ] the iniquity of us all... For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.... When you [God] make His soul an offering for sin... He bore the sins of many..." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Guest Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 Wow Dr. Rich, I can't believe you said that. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted August 13, 2009 Moderators Posted August 13, 2009 Show the verses in Paul's writing that you have a problem with and also give the verses in the Bible which you believe contradict Paul. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Dr. Rich Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 We have been thru all of this before John. The ransom (bond) was for the penalty. And it was for many--not for the entire world--just those that become righteous and that is all! The bondservants and the reason they are called bondservants. We also went over Is 53 read the whole thing John--please don't cut and paste. This WOULD have happened as Dan. 9:24's prophecy shows us it could have happened, but it didn't. Sorry, but this will not work as evidence for an atonement. Quote
Guest Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 Isa 53:10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Quote
Dr. Rich Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 Is this about Jesus? Did or does Jesus have offspring? I don't think so. Quote
Guest Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 Who do you think it's about? And where does it say anything about offspring? Quote
Just* Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: Just* Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I [am] the LORD that sanctify them. But that work is on going...it is never complete....As EGW states, as long as time shall last there will be no stopping point where we can say we have arrived. Furthermore you must look at the context....Much of the book of the law is OC....So you can quote those Sabbath references all you want I am not under law - under the OC....If you are going to insist that I follow these OC, OT regulations, then when someone messes up on his Sabbath keeping you must stone him....You can't just pick and chose....You have to follow all the laws...including the stoning of those who break the sabbath.... Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 2 Corinthians 3:3 written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Ephesians 5:9 For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth; 20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. Quote
Just* Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook That's the part you need the text for. I know the other part. Why would God ask you to rest when His rest no longer pointed to a sinless world? Besides' date=' immediately God set out to save the world....That's work...not rest....And He worked and worked until the cross.....Then He rested again.....but if I tell you about this truth I bet you'll reject it....Hence, the gospel first needs to be restored.[/quote'] Read- "The Gospel in Creation" By E.J. Waggoner Quote
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