When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[Guest]

I wish I had that book.

[Robert]

You're a Judaizer....You need your eyes opened....

[Robert]

Alright Just!

You guys are screwed up in the head....You think you're keeping the law....you think you are living Christ's life and you are depending on your so called obedience for your ticket to heaven....Well, Paul tells me "you've fallen from grace"...you are cut off....

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: John317

....His previous body was not left behind but apparently used in some manner.

1 Cor 15:42 The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-

Is this the point where you tell us we do not need to overcome sin because Jesus will "change" us when He comes?

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Alright Just!

You guys are screwed up in the head....You think you're keeping the law....you think you are living Christ's life and you are depending on your so called obedience for your ticket to heaven....Well, Paul tells me "you've fallen from grace"...you are cut off....

And you my friend are teaching a spurious sanctification that requires no obedience to the Law of God, are you not?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

You guys are screwed up in the head....You think you're keeping the law....you think you are living Christ's life and you are depending on your so called obedience for your ticket to heaven....Well' date=' Paul tells me "you've fallen from grace"...you are cut off....

[/quote']

And you my friend are teaching a spurious sanctification that requires no obedience to the Law of God, are you not?

I'm not under law, nut! What part of that don't you understand? If you say that doesn't release from obedience to the law, then I'm back under the law again....You guys think in circles....You're just plain silly!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Why would God ask you to rest when His rest no longer pointed to a sinless world? Besides' date=' immediately God set out to save the world....That's work...not rest....And He worked and worked until the cross.....Then He rested again.....but if I tell you about this truth I bet you'll reject it....Hence, the gospel first needs to be restored.[/quote'] Read-

"The Gospel in Creation"

By E.J. Waggoner

Read Paul....He's that guy in the Bible....

[Robert]

Is this the point where you tell us we do not need to overcome sin because Jesus will "change" us when He comes?

What was that, Mr. Judaizer? Did you say something...

I'm sick of this self-righteous, smug attitude that is prevalent with traditional, historic SDA. You guys need a reality check....NEWS FLASH: You aren't keeping the law as Christ kept it....You keep it outwardly, but the spirituality of the law, you are failing and failing badly. Would you like EGW again?

Our earthly life, however long, honored, or useful it may be, is but childhood, frail, imperfect, and undeveloped. Manhood, with its full, perfect, glorious development, will come, when, freed from the taint of sin, we stand among the redeemed throng. Then [not now] we shall enjoy a life which measures with the life of God, and through everlasting ages we shall go on increasing in wisdom and knowledge.

Comprehend?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Is this the point where you tell us we do not need to overcome sin because Jesus will "change" us when He comes?

What was that, Mr. Judaizer? Did you say something...

I'm sick of this self-righteous, smug attitude that is prevalent with traditional, historic SDA. You guys need a reality check....NEWS FLASH: You aren't keeping the law as Christ kept it....You keep it outwardly, but the spirituality of the law, you are failing and failing badly. Would you like EGW again?

Our earthly life, however long, honored, or useful it may be, is but childhood, frail, imperfect, and undeveloped. Manhood, with its full, perfect, glorious development, will come, when, freed from the taint of sin, we stand among the redeemed throng. Then [not now] we shall enjoy a life which measures with the life of God, and through everlasting ages we shall go on increasing in wisdom and knowledge.

Comprehend?

You did not answer the question. :-)

Mark

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

What was that' date=' Mr. Judaizer? Did you say something...

I'm sick of this self-righteous, smug attitude that is prevalent with traditional, historic SDA. You guys need a reality check....NEWS FLASH: You aren't keeping the law as Christ kept it....You keep it outwardly, but the spirituality of the law, you are failing and failing badly. Would you like EGW again?

Our earthly life, however long, honored, or useful it may be, is but childhood, frail, imperfect, and undeveloped. Manhood, with its full, perfect, glorious development, will come, when, freed from the taint of sin, we stand among the redeemed throng. Then [not now'] we shall enjoy a life which measures with the life of God, and through everlasting ages we shall go on increasing in wisdom and knowledge.

Comprehend?

You did not answer the question. :-)

Mark

How much sin must your overcome so you can get in the gates, Mark? How much? Yes?

[Just*]

I'm not under law, nut! What part of that don't you understand?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I'm not under law, nut! What part of that don't you understand?

Romans 8:1 There is therefore no condemnation(Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace) to them which are in Christ Jesus, 2)who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

One thing I've noticed about historic, traditional SDA is that they place together (like a puzzle) many verses (taken out of their immediate context) to make up their legalistic message....Well, been there, done that, learned better....I feel bad for you guys....Your trapped in your self-righteousness....You can't see...your blind....Your own so called righteousness has blinded you....You are like the Pharisees of old....You make someone a convert to your message and then that person become twice the son of helll....

As to Romans 8:1, that last part "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" was added by the KJV translators...

Here's how it reads: "There's now no condemnation to those who are "in Christ", period!!!!

You see the man of Romans 7 has the law written in his heart..he loves God's law according to "the inward man", but in reality he isn't measuring up. Is there any condemnation to such a believer? Paul says, "No!"

But you, a Judaizer, say no...you must keep the law to be "in Christ".....You've turned the gospel, which is good news to struggling sinners, to legalism....I guess it makes you feel superior...I guess it makes you feel high and mighty....Well, take your self-righteousness and go somewhere else....I for one grow tired of it....It's nauseating.

[Just*]

I wish I had that book.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

You did not answer the question. :-)

Mark

How much sin must your overcome so you can get in the gates, Mark? How much? Yes?

All known sin...

Through the merits of Christ.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Just*

Romans 8:1 There is therefore no condemnation(Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace) to them which are in Christ Jesus, 2)who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [/quote']

One thing I've noticed about historic, traditional SDA is that they place together (like a puzzle) many verses (taken out of their immediate context) to make up their legalistic message....Well, been there, done that, learned better....I feel bad for you guys....Your trapped in your self-righteousness....You can't see...your blind....Your own so called righteousness has blinded you....You are like the Pharisees of old....You make someone a convert to your message and then that person become twice the son of helll....

As to Romans 8:1, that last part "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" was added by the KJV translators...

Here's how it reads: "There's now no condemnation to those who are "in Christ", period!!!!

You see the man of Romans 7 has the law written in his heart..he loves God's law according to "the inward man", but in reality he isn't measuring up. Is there any condemnation to such a believer? Paul says, "No!"

But you, a Judaizer, say no...you must keep the law to be "in Christ".....You've turned the gospel, which is good news to struggling sinners, to legalism....I guess it makes you feel superior...I guess it makes you feel high and mighty....Well, take your self-righteousness and go somewhere else....I for one grow tired of it....It's nauseating.

Here's how it reads: "There's now no condemnation to those who are "in Christ", period!!!!

I do not think anyone is arguing with that...

But if you are "in Christ" you will show it because your nature will be one with Christs and He will strengthen you to be obedient to every expressed command of God...

That is the issue Robert.

You are claiming that Christ is a "minister of sin".

Those that oppose you say He is not.

If you are in Christ, you will be obedient to His slightest desire.

If you stumble in that, you can repent and be restored into that abiding experience.

But if you are not abiding (sinning breaks that), then you are no longer in Christ.

You are of course claiming that you are in Christ even when "you are" sinning...

Or are you trying to claim that being in Christ is "license to sin"?

Mark :-)

[Robert]

You are claiming that Christ is a "minister of sin".

Paul is talking of legalism here....You've got it backwards:

Gal 2:11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him publicly, speaking strongly against what he was doing, for it was very wrong. 12 When he first arrived, he ate with the Gentile Christians, who don't bother with circumcision. But afterward, when some Jewish friends of James came, Peter wouldn't eat with the Gentiles anymore because he was afraid of what these legalists would say. 13 Then the other Jewish Christians followed Peter's hypocrisy, and even Barnabas was influenced to join them in their hypocrisy. 14 When I saw that they were not following the truth of the Good News, I said to Peter in front of all the others, "Since you, a Jew by birth, have discarded the Jewish laws and are living like a Gentile, why are you trying to make these Gentiles obey the Jewish laws [the book of the law] you abandoned? 15 You and I are Jews by birth, not 'sinners' like the Gentiles. 16 And yet we Jewish Christians know that we become right with God, not by doing what the law commands, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be accepted by God because of our faith in Christ – and not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be saved by obeying the law." 17 But what if we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then find out that we are still sinners? Has Christ led us into sin? Of course not! 18 Rather, I make myself guilty if I rebuild the old system I already tore down. 19 For when I tried to keep the law, I realized I could never earn God's approval. So I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ. 20 I myself no longer live, but Christ lives in me. So I live my life in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I am not one of those who treats the grace of God as meaningless. For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

You are claiming that Christ is a "minister of sin".

Paul is talking of legalism here....You've got it backwards:

Gal 2:11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him publicly, speaking strongly against what he was doing, for it was very wrong. 12 When he first arrived, he ate with the Gentile Christians, who don't bother with circumcision. But afterward, when some Jewish friends of James came, Peter wouldn't eat with the Gentiles anymore because he was afraid of what these legalists would say. 13 Then the other Jewish Christians followed Peter's hypocrisy, and even Barnabas was influenced to join them in their hypocrisy. 14 When I saw that they were not following the truth of the Good News, I said to Peter in front of all the others, "Since you, a Jew by birth, have discarded the Jewish laws and are living like a Gentile, why are you trying to make these Gentiles obey the Jewish laws [the book of the law] you abandoned? 15 You and I are Jews by birth, not 'sinners' like the Gentiles. 16 And yet we Jewish Christians know that we become right with God, not by doing what the law commands, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be accepted by God because of our faith in Christ – and not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be saved by obeying the law." 17 But what if we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then find out that we are still sinners? Has Christ led us into sin? Of course not! 18 Rather, I make myself guilty if I rebuild the old system I already tore down. 19 For when I tried to keep the law, I realized I could never earn God's approval. So I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ. 20 I myself no longer live, but Christ lives in me. So I live my life in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I am not one of those who treats the grace of God as meaningless. For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die.

The one who teaches that we can "sin and be saved" is the one who has got it all backwards. :-)

Mark

[Robert]

If you are in Christ, you will be obedient to His slightest desire.

[Robert]

Your self-deceived.

We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see [how righteous we are? No, we shall see] how impure we are; [how so?] we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. [sC 28]

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Paul is talking of legalism here....You've got it backwards:

Gal 2:11 But when Peter came to Antioch' date=' I had to oppose him publicly, speaking strongly against what he was doing, for it was very wrong. 12 When he first arrived, he ate with the Gentile Christians, who don't bother with circumcision. But afterward, when some Jewish friends of James came, Peter wouldn't eat with the Gentiles anymore because he was afraid of what these legalists would say. 13 Then the other Jewish Christians followed Peter's hypocrisy, and even Barnabas was influenced to join them in their hypocrisy. 14 When I saw that they were not following the truth of the Good News, I said to Peter in front of all the others, "Since you, a Jew by birth, have discarded the Jewish laws and are living like a Gentile, why are you trying to make these Gentiles obey the Jewish laws [the book of the law'] you abandoned? 15 You and I are Jews by birth, not 'sinners' like the Gentiles. 16 And yet we Jewish Christians know that we become right with God, not by doing what the law commands, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be accepted by God because of our faith in Christ – and not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be saved by obeying the law." 17 But what if we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then find out that we are still sinners? Has Christ led us into sin? Of course not! 18 Rather, I make myself guilty if I rebuild the old system I already tore down. 19 For when I tried to keep the law, I realized I could never earn God's approval. So I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ. 20 I myself no longer live, but Christ lives in me. So I live my life in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I am not one of those who treats the grace of God as meaningless. For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die.

The one who teaches that we can "sin and be saved" is the one who has got it all backwards. :-)

Mark

Then stop sinning....BTW, the love of self is basis of all sin....

[Robert]

Then stop sinning....BTW, the love of self is basis of all sin....

The root meaning of this word [iniquity - sin] is “to be bent.” As used in Scripture it refers to our spiritual condition. Note the following texts:

* Psalm 51:5. David was “shapen in iniquity” from his very birth. This was his spiritual condition since physically he was handsome [1 Samuel 16:12]. The primary meaning of iniquity is not an act but a condition. As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is love of self. Paul defines it as “the law of sin and death” [Romans 7:23; 8:2]. It is this condition that is the basis of all our sinning, and which makes us slaves to sin [Romans 3:9-12; 7:14].

* Isaiah 53:6. Two things are revealed in this text. 1. Everyone of us has gone astray, since we have all turned or bent “to his own way.” 2. This own-way-ness (i.e., self-centeredness) is synonymous with iniquity, which was laid upon Christ our sin bearer; and it was this “sin in the flesh” that Christ “condemned” on the cross [Romans 8:2-3].

Iniquity, therefore, is simply seeking our own way, a condition we are born with and which (without a Saviour) makes it impossible to do genuine righteousness, since the law of God requires even our motives to be pure [Matthew 5:20-22, 27-28]. In contrast to iniquity or self-seeking is agape (divine love) which is of God and which “seeketh not her own” [1 Corinthians 13:5].

[js]

[Twilight]

Once again this "gospel" reveals "itself":

I say "curse" the whole bunch of you....

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Your self-deceived.

We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see [how righteous we are? No, we shall see] how impure we are; [how so?] we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. [sC 28]

This is a good point Rob. Or should I thank Ellen White.

[Dr. Rich]

Yes, you got that right Twilight! Here is the sad thing, most christians believe the way Robert does. As you two have pointed out, there are clearly two seperate gospels. Robert cursed those who believe in Jesus' gospel just as he chastized Peter in front of everyone. If they want to believe the way they do, why is it that they have to try to force their belief upon everyone else? Jesus did not force his gospel on anyone. He gave them a choice--either abide in me by obeying what I have said or not. Isn't this the character of Christ that we should mirror?

[skyblue888]

We should have a better appreciation of what Paul meant when he he was talking about not wrestling with flesh and blood...

On every forum, especially adventist ones, you will meet with the enemy face to face... he always uses the same tactics, the same lies, the same accusations against those who would live in Christ Jesus,,,

if the enemy cannot gainsay the truth, he starts calling you names, like "dude" or even curse you.