When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[John317]

If Jesus Christ is our elder brother that means we are His siblings. We know who our Father is, who then is our Mother? From whom are we to be born again?

The kind of relationships and births we're talking about here-- which are spiritual-- have nothing to do with sex or gender. Believers are born of God and of the Holy Spirit. It refers to having the nature, or seed, of God. 1 John 3: 9. Through His grace, we are given the same attitudes, motives, and love that God has. God changes our minds and our hearts. It's part of the New Covenant promises. See Hebrews 8: 10; 10: 16.

AS we surrender to Him, and as we die daily to sin, God writes His laws on our hearts and minds. Remember that his laws are a written expression of God's character. So He is writing His own character of love and righteousness on our characters-- if we cooperate. He cannot do it if we refuse.

Check out Rev. 22: 4, where it says the saved will have God's name (character) written on their foreheads. His nature will be a part of their own characters. We will indeed be God's sons. Rev. 21: 7.

The Holy Spirit is not a woman. Women are humans, and the Holy Spirit is not human. The Bible NEVER refers to either the Father or the Spirit as "her" or "she," but always as "He," "Him," or, in the case of the Spirit, sometimes as "it."

[Guest]

John you may have to explain again that when a word in greek is femenine, it has nothing to do with gender.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

If Jesus Christ is our elder brother that means we are His siblings. We know who our Father is, who then is our Mother? From whom are we to be born again?

The kind of relationships and births we're talking about here-- which are spiritual-- have nothing to do with sex or gender. Believers are born of God and of the Holy Spirit. It refers to having the nature, or seed, of God. 1 John 3: 9. Through His grace, we are given the same attitudes, motives, and love that God has. God changes our minds and our hearts. It's part of the New Covenant promises. See Hebrews 8: 10; 10: 16.

Check out Rev. 22: 4, where it says the saved will have God's name (character) written on their foreheads. His nature will be a part of their own characters. We will indeed be God's sons. Rev. 21: 7.

The Holy Spirit is not a woman. Women are humans, and the Holy Spirit is not human. The Bible NEVER refers to either the Father or the Spirit as "her" or "she," but always as "He," "Him," or, in the case of the Spirit, sometimes as "it."

Do you have any thoughts on the identity of the 7 spirits before the throne of God.

They seem to be strongly linked to the Holy Spirit, but I have never heard anyone discuss it.

Mark

[phkrause]

I like that John, that sounds awesome. Makes you feel as an actual brother or sister of Christ.

pk

[John317]

John you may have to explain again that when a word in greek is femenine, it has nothing to do with gender.

Yes, again, the gender of a word in Greek does not necessarily signify that the word is female or male. The word, technh, is feminine, but means "craftmanship." The word, speira, is feminine but means a Roman cohort, or legion of about 600 men, a band of male soldiers.

The words for child [teknon] and for spirits [pneuma], are neuter nouns, but that obviously does not mean they are not persons, nor does it indicate anything about sex.

The pronouns do, however, signify gender. For instance, the masculine pronoun "autou," is never translated as "her," but always as "him." If someone is a female, she is always referred to by the feminine pronoun "auths."

[Just*]

You see the man of Romans 7 has the law written in his heart

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

John you may have to explain again that when a word in greek is femenine, it has nothing to do with gender.

Yes, again, the gender of a word in Greek does not necessarily signify that the word is female or male. The word, technh, is feminine, but means "craftmanship." The word, speira, is feminine but means a Roman cohort, or legion of about 600 men, a band of male soldiers.

The words for child [teknon] and for spirits [pneuma], are neuter nouns, but that obviously does not mean they are not persons, nor does it indicate anything about sex.

The pronouns do, however, signify gender. For instance, the masculine pronoun "autou," is never translated as "her," but always as "him." If someone is a female, she is always referred to by the feminine pronoun "auths."

Thanks John

[skyblue888]

The man of Romans 7 is intellectually converted but still a slave to sin. He knows what the law demands and he wills to do it but cannot perform it. He sins against his own will. The will to do what is good is not lacking but how to perform it he does not know. But through the merits of Christ he finds the power to free him from the law of sin and death.

sky

[Guest]

The man of Romans 7 is intellectually converted but still a slave to sin. He knows what the law demands and he wills to do it but cannot perform it. He sins against his own will. The will to do what is good is not lacking but how to perform it he does not know. But through the merits of Christ he finds the power to free him from the law of sin and death.

sky

Power being the key word.

[John317]

I like that John, that sounds awesome. Makes you feel as an actual brother or sister of Christ.

pk

And if once we really grasp it and see ourselves that way--the way God sees us-- it has a real affect on our behavior.

"God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus...."

By faith, we're with Jesus. "For our citizenship is in heaven..." Phil. 3: 20; Hebrews 11: 13-16.

"That you may become blameless and innocent, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse people, among whom you shine as lights in the world. Phil. 2: 15.

[skyblue888]

He didn't really lose His Son, did He? The form of God He relinquished for ever but the glories of the form of God He only relinquished for a while.

sky

[John317]

The man of Romans 7 is intellectually converted but still a slave to sin.

That's exactly it. And notice that Romans 7: 13-25, the entire section describing him, says absolutely nothing about the Spirit. I think that's a key. He is a man trying to do it all on his own strength. That's a prescription for certain failure. By contrast, chapter 8, which describes victory in Christ, refers to the Spirit in almost every verse.

[skyblue888]

Yes absolutely! :)

[Guest]

It's almost 5:30 here on the east coast. Any minute now you guys will be seeing the giant words on the screen.........from Robert.

[Gail]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

The man of Romans 7 is intellectually converted but still a slave to sin.

That's exactly it. And notice that Romans 7: 13-25, the entire section describing him, says absolutely nothing about the Spirit. I think that's a key. He is a man trying to do it all on his own strength. That's a prescription for certain failure. By contrast, chapter 8, which describes victory in Christ, refers to the Spirit in almost every verse.

Love how you put it!

[skyblue888]

"When God gave His Son to our world, He endowed human beings with imperishable riches--riches compared with which the treasured wealth of men since the world began is nothingness. Christ came to the earth and stood before the children of men with the hoarded love of eternity, and this is the treasure that, through our connection with Him, we are to receive, to reveal, and to impart." M.H.37.

[phkrause]

?????????? Not sure I understand Richard.

pk

[John317]

He didn't really lose His Son, did He? The form of God He relinquished for ever but the glories of the form of God He only relinquished for a while.

Yes, Phil. 2: 9-11 as well as John 17: 5, 24 indicate that Christ gave up the glory only for a while, and this glory of being of the Godhead has been restored to Him.

Yet when Christ sacrificed Himself (Heb. 9: 14) and became human, He gave up a part of Himself for eternity, and God lost the Son that He had had. The Father only had one being in all the universe that was a perfect reflection of His character and glory. That was the Word, the pre-existent, self-existent, eternal Son of God, "the only begotten Son." Christ "is the image of the invisible God," "the brightness of God's glory." He is the only One who shows God's character and glory.

But now Jesus Christ will forever be in human form. That means that there's a very real sense in which Christ no longer can perfectly reflect the glory of God the Father.

Why?

Because Christ took two steps down from what He was before. It would be somewhat comparable to humans becoming an insect, one step below the animals.

Christ did not step down from the Godhead to being an angel. That would have been humiliation enough. But Christ took one additional step down, to becoming a man. And that is what He will be throughout eternity.

Both God the Father and the Son truly sacrificed themselves forever for our salvation. We probably will require an eternity to completely grasp what that means.

[aldona]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

If Jesus Christ is our elder brother that means we are His siblings. We know who our Father is, who then is our Mother? From whom are we to be born again?

The pagans teach there is a "mother earth", but I am not aware of any text in the bible that equates any part of the Godhead with "motherhood"...

The catholics also have the Virgin Mary to fill this need, but I am not aware we have the same need as Adventists...

Mark

The Adventist theological system DOES have a female figure to fill this position.

Just as our Catholic friends do not believe that Mary is part of the Godhead, but her role includes pointing sinners to her Son, so we believe that this lady is not on the same level as God but exists to point us to Him. "The lesser light", so to speak.

Speaking out against Her or denying Her special position brings responses similar to those which would ensue if you slandered the Virgin Mary to a Catholic.

When our church building was new and we were deciding on a name, I proposed naming it "Shrine of Our Lady of Eternal Responsibility" after Her.

Can anyone guess who I am referring to? Who is the feminine element in the Adventist pantheon?

Hint...her initials might be EGW.....

aldona

[Musicman1228]

Aldona,

I am actually thinking of the Woman of Rev 12, who gives birth to Jesus Christ and to "the rest of Her offspring", the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ.

EGW DID NOT give birth to Jesus Christ. If anything (?) is was the other way around.

If this Woman in Rev.12 gave birth to Jesus and His siblings, the only way He could get these siblings is through the NEW BIRTH spoken of in John 3. This would make the Woman the Holy Spirit (only women can give birth). Then you would actually have a Family of God: God the Father-the Almighty; God the Mother-the Holy Spirit; and God the Son-Jesus Christ. And going back to Genesis 1:26,27 we see God creating mankind in His image and after His likeness; male AND FEMALE created He them. (It has always seemed culturally parochial to me that the God that created all of us would only have male characteristics, and not female characteristics as well.)

What do you think?

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

If Jesus Christ is our elder brother that means we are His siblings. We know who our Father is, who then is our Mother? From whom are we to be born again?

The kind of relationships and births we're talking about here-- which are spiritual-- have nothing to do with sex or gender. Believers are born of God and of the Holy Spirit. It refers to having the nature, or seed, of God. 1 John 3: 9. Through His grace, we are given the same attitudes, motives, and love that God has. God changes our minds and our hearts. It's part of the New Covenant promises. See Hebrews 8: 10; 10: 16.

AS we surrender to Him, and as we die daily to sin, God writes His laws on our hearts and minds. Remember that his laws are a written expression of God's character. So He is writing His own character of love and righteousness on our characters-- if we cooperate. He cannot do it if we refuse.

Check out Rev. 22: 4, where it says the saved will have God's name (character) written on their foreheads. His nature will be a part of their own characters. We will indeed be God's sons. Rev. 21: 7.

The Holy Spirit is not a woman. Women are humans, and the Holy Spirit is not human. The Bible NEVER refers to either the Father or the Spirit as "her" or "she," but always as "He," "Him," or, in the case of the Spirit, sometimes as "it."

MM, did the HS need to flee into the wilderness to keep from being killed by Satan?

[John317]

You have a very good point-- if the woman represents the Holy Spirit, why is the Holy Spirit described as "fleeing into the wilderness, where God has a place prepared for [the Holy Spirit?], that they should feed [the Holy Spirit?]"? The last part of the latter sentence is best translated as, "that she might be cared for 1, 260 days." Since when does the Third Person of the Godhead need to be fed and cared for?

Does any of that make sense [assuming the woman is the Holy Spirit] and is it consistent with the other biblical evidence?

It's absolutely clear that Rev. 12: 1-6 is symbolic, not literal. This is stated clearly by the use of the word, "sign." Remember that in the Old Testament, the covenant people of God are referred to as the wife of God. The great Apostle Paul speaks of them the same way. See Is. 54: 5 and Gal. 4: 26.

If anyone cares to look up the following texts, this becomes overwhelmingly plain: Song of Sol. 6: 10; Is. 61: 10; cf. 2 Cor. 4: 6; Rev. 1: 16; Rev. 12: 17; 19: 7-8; John 16: 21-22; Is. 66: 7-9; Jer. 4: 31; Micah 4: 10.

Therefore this woman is not a literal being or person. The twelve stars indicate that it's talking about the twelve tribes of Israel (Gen. 37: 9-10), and of course, the Messiah came out of Israel, the people of God. We know that Satan was waiting to attack Him as soon as He was born. Remember the promise of the seed of the woman. Gen. 3: 15. Compare Rev. 12: 1, 2 with Is. 26: 17-18.

[Dr. Rich]

History shows that She did flee to the wilderness (this world) She was here since Jesus was in Heaven. During the Dark Ages, She was not involved with anyone because of the prophecy in Matthew 21:43 and Dan. 8:14.

She remained hidden until 1844 when the Kingdom of Heaven was set up by God. This is the Kingdom that will last forever.

But anyway--I thought we hashed this out already? Didn't we?

[Guest]

Nope. It says she had to be fed. The HS has never needed to be fed.

[Guest]

You have a very good point-- if the woman represents the Holy Spirit, why is the Holy Spirit described as "fleeing into the wilderness, where God has a place prepared for [the Holy Spirit?], that they should feed [the Holy Spirit?]"? The last part of the latter sentence is best translated as, "that she might be cared for 1, 260 days." Since when does the Third Person of the Godhead need to be fed and cared for?

You didn't read! You're just listening to your own head rattle DR.