When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[Guest]

You're quoting Paul as proof?

[wayfinder]

I thought that would get your attention. I did this to show that Paul understood the value of the testimony of two or three eyewitness, in the situation he was addressing. I also know that what Paul says carries weight with most on this forum. I know what Paul teaches, I understand it differently than most.

[Guest]

Neither text is talking about proving a true prophet or man of God.

[Dr. Rich]

RH--would you be willing to take the 'witness stand' on our weekly live radio program called "The Bible On Trial"? I would love to 'take your deposition' which means you must answer my questions.

[Guest]

Don't leave me hanging over in the closed forum.

[John317]

What is hard to understand is how Luke knows this not having been there, the eyewitnesses give no such account, this is only supposition to try and reconcile the difference. I stand by the testimony of the two eyewitnesses, Matthew and Peter. These two witnesses say that the two thieves were railing insults at the Son of God up to the time He died, He was not alive to converse with a penitent thief.

You said, "I stand by the testimony of the two eyewitnesses, Matthew and Peter. These two witnesses say that the two thieves were railing insults at the Son of God up to the time He died, He was not alive to converse with a penitent thief."

Please quote Matthew and Peter and show that they say the thieves were "insulting Christ up to the time He died."

John doesn't mention the thieves insulting Jesus. It merely mentions the fact that Jesus was crucified between two thieves.

Matt. 27: 44 simply says that both thieves "cast the same in his teeth," but it does not tell us at what point in the narrative it was done. The same with Mark 15: 32.

Luke records a detailed conversation in which "one of the criminals blasphemed Him, saying, If you are the Christ, save Yourself and us." And "the other" said, "Don't you even fear fear God?" This one asked Christ to remember him when He came into His kingdom.

I do not see any significant difference here that cannot be easily explained. It makes sense that since Luke talked to eyewitnesses, he would be able to record details that don't appear in the other Gospels. See Luke 1: 2.

[Dr. Rich]

John, what is your problem man? All wayfinder was pointing out was that the eyewitnesses have a different story of what happened then Luke--so where did Luke get his information? There are many stories found in Luke that are different or not at all told by the eyewitnesses. Just like when the Holy Spirit was given--either John was right or Luke. I trust John.

In both Matthew and Mark, there was NO change from what the theives said--all the way up to when Jesus died! Isn't that what wayfinder said? You need to take a break!

[Guest]

It dosn't say up until he died.

[peacemaker]

Mental conversion is character change; by beholding we become changed. Illustration: When an engineer visualizes all the forces necessary to fly a 600,000 lb 747, they place it in a technical blueprint. It is approved and sent to the assembly floor to construct according to the detailed specs. If it is assembled exactly it will lumber down the runway fully loaded and fly. Which is more perfect the blueprint or the actual maiden flight? I believe they both are equally; one potential; one actual. Just so is one beholding the perfect character of Christ; that one is as perfect at the beginning eg thief on the cross; as apostle John on the isle of Patmos. Any other works oriented perfection that maintains an imperfect "blueprint" of Christ will crash. Often it is never tested in a knowledge-based non-experiential based "christian" walk. So we talk of flying, study flying, dream of flying, but these type of "blueprints" leave us empty and will never fly upon the breath of the Spirit. The only way valid blueprint of Christ will fly on the wings of the Spirit will be if that person has extra oil in their lamps which is the faith one has in the perfect Character of Christ. It is impossible to ever achieve perfection of the soul as long as one harbors unrighteousess by faith about Christ. One may say, "of course I believe that Christ is righteous". But if we say that the God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New Testament, we have a real challenge in confessing that the character of God is perfect. I have reconciled this by a new definition of inspiration: the Bible tells us just as much about what God is not like as it does about what He is like. the only complete and total revelation of God was that revealed in Christ. Otherwise how does one reconcile 2 Kings 1:ff and Luke 9:51-54 in the KJV. Since the RSV and all revisions since, they could not stomach the contradiction so they leave out key points that Jesus Himself made and place them in the footnotes. Yes it is only through Christ that we get the clear picture of the Perfect Character of God. Make Peace not War!

[John317]

For a trained lawyer, Dr. Rich, you're not very objective. You seem to be too emotional in this.

Go back to your statement that Matthew and Mark say that the thieves are casting insults "all the way up to when Jesus died." Please support that with Bible evidence.

The fact that they don't mention any change doesn't mean there was no change. Again, as a lawyer you ought to know that. Would you want someone on a jury making that kind of judgment, that since a witness or two didn't mention something, it must not have happened?

[oldsailor29]

Christ told his deciples that since they saw and knew Him, they also saw and knew God (the Father). Becauses Christ and God the father are one.

So, if we live in Christ's presence aren't we already living in the presence of God. And, if Christ is our mediator before God the Father...and they are one...aren't we already living without a mediator before God?

(I really do enjoy Graham Maxwell's writings!)

God is our mediator. I don't know what Graham Maxwell says, but the father/son relationship depicted in the Bible is a method of learning about God. I think we can believe God is love, and He died for our sins. The judgment scenes and the divine council are metaphors which are designed to teach us something about God. God doesn't really need to be told that His sacrifice covers all sin. It is His created beings who need to learn that. We need to learn that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one in infinity. God is infinity, in which all are one. As finite beings in a finite world, we know very little about infinity. God is trying to teach us things about infinity, about Himself. Our knowledge of God is smaller than a grain of sand in the sea of knowledge. We don't know enough about God to argue about Him. The best thing we can do is simply have faith in God.

Have faith in God

Who made the sky, land, and sea.

Have faith in God

Who died for you and me.

Have faith in God

Who is infinity.

Have faith, dear friend, in God.

[Twilight]

During the latter rain the people of God will grow up into Christ until they reflect Him fully, until the full corn of His character is in the ear. See Mark 4:26-29. They will be transformed by the manifold grace of the Holy Spirit so that each one of the redeemed will reflect Christ's character within his own sanctified individuality.

Here is the secret of growth in Christ:

"Habitually dwelling upon Christ and His all-sufficient merits increases faith, quickens the power of spiritual discernment, strengthens the desire to be like Him, and brings an earnestness into prayer that makes it efficacious." E.G.W. Gospel Worker, p.166.

"Looking unto Jesus and trusting in His merits we appropriate the blessings of light and peace and joy in the Holy Ghost." Testimonies, Vol.5, p.744.

At this time, the true people of God make it their life business to behold the uplifted Saviour and to accept His merits which they believe it is their privilege to claim. They understand that this is the only way the sinner can be saved, the only way he can attain to righteousness, to perfect conformity to the will of God as it is expressed in the precepts of His holy law. See T.M.93; F.W.101; S.C.61.

"As the members of the body of Christ approach the period of their last conflict, 'the time of Jacob's trouble,' they will grow up into Christ, and will partake largely of His Spirit. As the third message swells to a loud cry, and as great power and glory attend the closing work, the faithful people of God will partake of that glory. It is the latter rain which revives and strengthens them to pass through the time of trouble. Their faces will shine with the glory of that light which attends the third angel." Testimonies, Vol.1, p.353.

sky

The more I consider these things, the deeper my experience with the Lord grows. :-)

[wayfinder]

John317 and Richard Holbrook,

I am the investigator, I search for the truth I have found that I must observe every detail. That is why I know that Luke's account is not true. If you notice the hour designation you will see why the eyewitness accounts hour by hour and Luke's account hour by hour leave no doubt that the robber/robbers crucified with the Son of God never had a change of heart.

Matthew 27:44-50

"The robbers who had been crucified with Him were also insulting Him with the same words. Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour. About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI , ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" And some of those who were standing there, when they heard it, began saying, "This man is calling for Elijah." Immediately one of them ran, and taking a sponge, he filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink. But the rest of them said, "Let us see whether Elijah will come to save Him." And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

Mark 15:32,33 "Let this Christ, the King of Israel, now come down from the cross, so that we may see and believe!" Those who were crucified with Him were also insulting Him.

When the sixth hour came, darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour.

Luke 23:42-44 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour,

The key is the sixth hour. Matthew and Mark say that both robbers were insulting Him and then darkness fell...

Luke states that the "conversion experience" of the robber on Christ's right hand has taken place by the sixth hour. So according to the eyewitness accounts, both robbers were unrepentant up to the time of Christ's death. Luke has one repenting before the sixth hour. The evidence is clear; Luke's account cannot be made to fit into the events of the last hours before Christ's death.

[Guest]

Luke specifies that the thief said this at the sixth hour. The other two leave a gap, and then jump to the sixth hour and talk about the darkness. This is not enough evidence to prove that one account is true and one is false. Far from it.

[Dr. Rich]

I am passionate for the truth. Just because it doesn't say anything in Matt and Mark about one of the robbers asking to be saved does not make it so--either! John and RH--you guys squabble over such obvious things that you make me want to pull my hair (I don't have much at that) out!

[wayfinder]

RH,

Matthew says now from the sixth hour. Mark says when the sixth hour came. Luke says it was about the sixth hour. Luke does not say the thief said this at the sixth hour; therefore all was said and done before the sixth hour. You do not need to accept it, you are free to believe what you want. I, on the other hand, choose to believe the eyewitness testimony, if they say nothing about the convertion of the robber on the right hand of the Son of God, then I know it never happened. Luke uses this oppertunity to promote the salvation theology of his good friend Paul. But who cares about the truth, we are saved by faith through grace, just like the robber, right.

[John317]

The key is the sixth hour. Matthew and Mark say that both robbers were insulting Him and then darkness fell...

Luke states that the "conversion experience" of the robber on Christ's right hand has taken place by the sixth hour. So according to the eyewitness accounts, both robbers were unrepentant up to the time of Christ's death. Luke has one repenting before the sixth hour. The evidence is clear; Luke's account cannot be made to fit into the events of the last hours before Christ's death.

The problem here is that you don't know how much time or what happened between the time the robbers insulted Jesus and the sixth hour. You are assuming that it happened just before the sixth hour but you don't know that. It doesn't say it. It just says that even the robbers who were crucified with him had reviled him, but it doesn't say when that happened or for how long. No one knows how much time there was between verse 44 and 45.

[Dr. Rich]

Just like wayfinder said, you think that you are saved by grace, so who cares what the truth is? Right?

[Guest]

We either sqabble over what you call obvious things, or we throw out whole books of the Bible over tiny descrepancies.

The fact that one gospel mentions one thing and another one dosn't is not grounds for throwing out a book of the Bible.

There are things in Matt that are not in Mark or John, and vise versa. That is not a reason to pare down your Bible.

You would have us to say: "Oh ok that is a little different. Yeah we should go ahead and get rid of that one."

[John317]

Wayfinder told me that? Tell me where Wayfinder said that to me, please.

Do you really want to start making this personal, Dr. Rich?

[Dr. Rich]

Here is what wayfinder wrote: (as if you can't read it yourself) "But who cares about the truth, we are saved by faith through grace, just like the robber, right?"

[John317]

Of course we are all saved by God's grace through faith.

[John317]

who cares about the truth, we are saved by faith through grace, just like the robber, right.

Please explain this. What do you mean by it?

Are you telling me that you believe I care less about truth than you or Dr. Rich? On the basis of a belief in salvation by God's grace through faith?

[Dr. Rich]

John, when you say 'we' and 'all' do you have a mouse in your pocket? For I would not include myself in your statement. I will only be saved if I become righteous by obeying what Jesus said which were given to us by His eyewitnesses and accepting ALL truth given to me by the Holy spirit.

Grace is something that can be taken away or given to anyone at the whim of who is giving it. When Jesus promised that who ever abides in what He said and taught would be saved, then I can take that to the bank!

[Woody]

Quote:

If you don't know what the "latter rain" is about, either you are not a seventh-day adventist or you just became one and have not heard about it yet.

Since there are accusations of people not being SDAs ....

May I ask the accuser ...

Sky are you a member of any SDA Church?

Your views certainly do not mesh with any SDA that I have met.

Look forward to your answer.