When Christ's character shall be perfectly reproduced in his people...

[Guest]

excactly

[Dr. Rich]

Hey John317, Was Adam righteous before the fall? If so, did he know he was righteous?

[Guest]

You should have been here Dr. Rich. Robert was trying to prove that the Sabbath is no longer significant.

[John317]

Yes, he was and no he didn't. Almost:

[Dr. Rich]

Robert is not old like me so he probably does not appreciate it like I do. I went back to read the round and round ball tossing and it was too bad Rob didn't listen to tonight's study again. Next week we will get into the significance of the Sabbath--why it is very important today.

[Musicman1228]

The Sabbath is important because the Covenant is still important (Deut.4:13).

Is the Sabbath still God's will?

A will is a testament to the wishes of a person after their death, and is a document that must be rendered (legally binding) under law. A will goes into force at the moment when the person that created the will dies. Jesus came to earth to perform the will of the Father. God cannot die, yet Jesus came to pay the penalty for our sins. To do this He had to die (we are under the penalty of death). When He died His 'will' (testament) was put in force and was shown to be valid by His sacrifice on the cross. The will of God contains stipulations as to what a person must do to gain access to the benefits provided by the will. In this case it is keeping the Covenant, including the 4th Commandment concerning the Sabbath. To say that the will of God in the form of the Covenant was done away with on the cross shows how little people know about how a will works and the significance of a will in its ability to affect the behavior of the beneficiary.

We are the beneficiary of the 'will' of God which was confirmed by the death of Christ on the cross. The benefit of the will is eternal life. In His will He has stipulated certain behavior pursuant to the requirements placed on the beneficiary in order to gain the benefit. Keeping the Covenant is that stipulation.

Rather than abrogate the Covenant the cross confirmed the Covenant, because of the 'will' of God.

[John317]

Is the Sabbath a part of the New Covenant? We know it was a part of the Old, or first, Covenant, but what about the New?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Do you have greater light than Ellen White Robert?

Yes, although I've learned many things from her....She had limited light....She pointed forward and said advancing light would come. Here:

The question has been asked me, "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?" I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth [the Bible]. We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us. [1SM 401]

Apparently you wish to stay with old light....Hence your legalistic message!

Here we have a "Prophet" of God, confirmed and proven.

Given the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

She lived and served Gods people for over 50 years.

Yet you have more light than her?

My friend, you really need to ask the Lord to draw you back from the foolishness you are engaged in.

I have not got a great knowledge of Gods Word, but it takes about two of your posts for me to realise that you have not got the gospel.

My desire is that you can find the truth, but I fear that you have replaced the leading of the Spirit with the desires of your own flesh.

I am not even convinced that the purpose of you being on this board is to lead others into truth.

Rather it seems, the purpose is to specifically confuse others.

Your wild claim above now precludes you from all sensible conversation in my mind.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Hey Robert, please define "legalist". Are you married? Isn't the marriage vow a legal contract/covenant? Just remember, God does NOT 'shack up'.

A legalist is one that thinks he can gain heaven partially by faith and works....He'll say we aren't saved by keeping the law, we are saved by grace, but the proof of our salvation is that we keep the law. What's the end result? Law keeping to get in.....Good luck....

Why not spend time with those that believe in "once saved always saved" Robert?

I sense your frustration is that many on here will not accept that false doctrine.

So why not find folks that do believe that, your kind of "gospel" will find a rich receipt on "Charismatic" boards, why waste your time with us "legalists"...

:-)

Mark

[Twilight]

Good...

"Sundaykeeping is not yet the mark of the beast...." [MS 118, 1899]

Likewise the Sabbath is not yet the seal (symbol) of God.

No sundaykeeping is not yet the mark, but the Sabbath has been the Sabbath since creation.

If Ellen White did not have "your" "light", then why keep quoting her?

Let me guess.

You reject anything to do with "reform" that Ellen White presents, that cross your carnal nature and call you out of sin?

Anything outside of that is fine.

But if she calls us out of something, then that is "legalism"?

Mark

[Twilight]

Jack Sequeira, who is a retired SDA Pastor, credentialed by the SDA Church, has the following to say:

The fall destroyed the Sabbath’s significance, since sin is turning from God-dependence to self-dependence. Isa. 59:2 says that your sin separates you from God. Gen. 3:19 is a good text. What did God say to Adam after he fell?

From now onward you will eat your bread by the sweat of your brow.

Before that, God worked for Adam. When you read about the Garden of Eden, it says it was God who planted the garden for Adam. Now God says,

From now onward you will eat your bread by the sweat of your brow.

That means, “You will have no rest.” So the fall destroyed the significance of the Sabbath.

If he is the source of the nonsense you are presenting on here, then no thank you...

[Twilight]

Is the Sabbath a part of the New Covenant? We know it was a part of the Old, or first, Covenant, but what about the New?

Of course, it is revealed in John 15...

:-)

Mark

[Robert]

Why would the Sabbath suddenly take on significance again at that time, when there is still sin, and before the damage is repaired?

Remember, the Sabbath is a symbol of God's rest....He does something...it is perfect and He rests....Then, if we believe, we rest as He rested....but before getting into all that we must agree that the Sabbath of creation lost its significance at the fall.

[Robert]

You should have been here Dr. Rich. Robert was trying to prove that the Sabbath is no longer significant.

Why are you stating untruths? I said the Sabbath of creation was no longer significant! Is God now resting because His work is perfect and complete? No! In fact Jesus said,

John 5:17 "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

[Robert]

She lived and served Gods people for over 50 years. Yet you have more light than her?

My friend, you really need to ask the Lord to draw you back from the foolishness you are engaged in. Mark

Do not think that, because we have a glimmer of the light of God, that we have it all .--Ms. 3, 1889, pp. 1-3. (Morning Talk at Ottawa, Kansas, May 14, 1889.)

The question has been asked me, "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?" I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth [the Bible]. We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us. [1SM 401]

We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn . God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. [CW 37]

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Good...

"Sundaykeeping is not yet the mark of the beast...." [MS 118, 1899]

Likewise the Sabbath is not yet the seal (symbol) of God.

No sundaykeeping is not yet the mark, but the Sabbath has been the Sabbath since creation.

If Ellen White did not have "your" "light", then why keep quoting her?

In with the good, out with the not so good....Unless she was infallible, she had unintentional error as all of us do - some more than others.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Jack Sequeira, who is a retired SDA Pastor, credentialed by the SDA Church, has the following to say:

The fall destroyed the Sabbath’s significance, since sin is turning from God-dependence to self-dependence. Isa. 59:2 says that your sin separates you from God. Gen. 3:19 is a good text. What did God say to Adam after he fell?

From now onward you will eat your bread by the sweat of your brow.

Before that, God worked for Adam. When you read about the Garden of Eden, it says it was God who planted the garden for Adam. Now God says,

From now onward you will eat your bread by the sweat of your brow.

That means, “You will have no rest.” So the fall destroyed the significance of the Sabbath.

If he is the source of the nonsense you are presenting on here, then no thank you...

Close your mind then....Keep up with your traditions....Don't think....

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

If he is the source of the nonsense you are presenting on here, then no thank you...

[/quote']Close your mind then....Keep up with your traditions....Don't think....

It is because I am thinking that I am rejecting what you are saying. :-)

Mark

[Dr. Rich]

Jack Sequeira, who is a retired SDA Pastor, credentialed by the SDA Church, has the following to say:

"The fall destroyed the Sabbath’s significance, since sin is turning from God-dependence to self-dependence."

Can someone tell me what Adam 'fell' from? How can one fall from being neutral? Adam didn't know good from evil before he ate from the tree so the mistaken belief that Adam was righteous before he ate can't be proven. He simply was neither good or evil. To be 'good' or righteous, one must have something (a standard) to be measured by. The test God gave Adam is the same test each of us have today. We either obey or not. Period.

[Guest]

He did obey, right up until he ate the fruit. Which by your definition would have made him righteous up to that point.

[oldsailor29]

The fall of Adam did not change the facts of creation. God is our creator, and because of Adam's fall, God is our redeemer. I don't think God took away the blessing of the Sabbath. I don't see how making it more difficult for Adam to survive means the destruction of the Sabbath. That sounds like something Satan would say. God is still the creator and deserves our worship, and He is our loving redeemer and deserves our love. We still have a lot of help from God in everything we do. God is keeping us alive. If Satan's lie, that God was a tyrant, was true, then Satan would be dead. But since it is not true, if God didn't keep him alive Satan would be dead anyway. And in fact God is keeping Satan alive, and believe it or not, He is doing that for our benefit. (GC pp. 499 - For the good of the entire universe ...) And our faith in God will keep us from believing any of Satan's lies.

[skyblue888]

The fall of Adam did not change the facts of creation. God is our creator, and because of Adam's fall, God is our redeemer. I don't think God took away the blessing of the Sabbath. I don't see how making it more difficult for Adam to survive means the destruction of the Sabbath. That sounds like something Satan would say. God is still the creator and deserves our worship, and He is our loving redeemer and deserves our love. We still have a lot of help from God in everything we do. God is keeping us alive. If Satan's lie, that God was a tyrant, was true, then Satan would be dead. But since it is not true, if God didn't keep him alive Satan would be dead anyway. And in fact God is keeping Satan alive, and believe it or not, He is doing that for our benefit. (GC pp. 499 - For the good of the entire universe ...) And our faith in God will keep us from believing any of Satan's lies.

Excellent! So true! "If God was a tyran Satan would be dead" and us too! "And in fact God is keeping Satan alive, and believe it or not, He is doing that for our benefit... for the good of the entire universe." Very true! Very well said. The quote in G.C.499 is worth reading. Here it is beginning from page 498.

"In His dealing with sin, God could employ only righteousness and truth. Satan could use what God could not-- flattery and deceit. He had sought to falsify the word of God and had misrepresented His plan of government before the angels, claiming that God was not just in laying laws and rules upon the inhabitants of heaven; that in requiring submission and obedience from His creatures, He was seeking merely the exaltation of Himself. Therefore it must be demonstrated before the inhabitants of heaven, as well as of all the worlds, that God's government was just, His law perfect. Satan had made it appear that he himself was seeking to promote the good of the universe. The true character of the usurper, and his real object, must be understood by all. He must have time to manifest himself by his wicked works.

The discord which his own course had caused in heaven, Satan charged upon the law and government of God. All evil he declared to be the result of the divine administration. He claimed that it was his own object to improve upon the statutes of Jehovah. Therefore it was necessary that he should demonstrate the nature of his claims, and show the working out of his proposed changes in the divine law. His own work must condemn him. Satan had claimed from the first that he was not in rebellion. The whole universe must see the deceiver unmasked.

Even when it was decided that he could no longer remain in heaven, Infinite Wisdom did not destroy Satan. Since the service of love can alone be acceptable to God, the allegiance of His creatures must rest upon a conviction of His justice and benevolence. The inhabitants of heaven and of other worlds, being unprepared to comprehend the nature or consequences of sin, could not then have seen the justice and

499

mercy of God in the destruction of Satan. Had he been immediately blotted from existence, they would have served God from fear rather than from love. The influence of the deceiver would not have been fully destroyed, nor would the spirit of rebellion have been utterly eradicated. Evil must be permitted to come to maturity. For the good of the entire universe through ceaseless ages Satan must more fully develop his principles, that his charges against the divine government might be seen in their true light by all created beings, that the justice and mercy of God and the immutability of His law might forever be placed beyond all question.

Satan's rebellion was to be a lesson to the universe through all coming ages, a perpetual testimony to the nature and terrible results of sin. The working out of Satan's rule, its effects upon both men and angels, would show what must be the fruit of setting aside the divine authority. It would testify that with the existence of God's government and His law is bound up the well-being of all the creatures He has made. Thus the history of this terrible experiment of rebellion was to be a perpetual safeguard to all holy intelligences, to prevent them from being deceived as to the nature of transgression, to save them from committing sin and suffering its punishments.

To the very close of the controversy in heaven the great usurper continued to justify himself. When it was announced that with all his sympathizers he must be expelled from the abodes of bliss, then the rebel leader boldly avowed his contempt for the Creator's law. He reiterated his claim that angels needed no control, but should be left to follow their own will, which would ever guide them right. He denounced the divine statutes as a restriction of their liberty and declared that it was his purpose to secure the abolition of law; that, freed from this restraint, the hosts of heaven might enter upon a more exalted, more glorious state of existence.

With one accord, Satan and his host threw the blame of their rebellion wholly upon Christ, declaring that if they

500

had not been reproved, they would never have rebelled. Thus stubborn and defiant in their disloyalty, seeking vainly to overthrow the government of God, yet blasphemously claiming to be themselves the innocent victims of oppressive power, the archrebel and all his sympathizers were at last banished from heaven.

The same spirit that prompted rebellion in heaven still inspires rebellion on earth. Satan has continued with men the same policy which he pursued with the angels. His spirit now reigns in the children of disobedience. Like him they seek to break down the restraints of the law of God and promise men liberty through transgression of its precepts. Reproof of sin still arouses the spirit of hatred and resistance. When God's messages of warning are brought home to the conscience, Satan leads men to justify themselves and to seek the sympathy of others in their course of sin. Instead of correcting their errors, they excite indignation against the reprover, as if he were the sole cause of difficulty. From the days of righteous Abel to our own time such is the spirit which has been displayed toward those who dare to condemn sin.

By the same misrepresentation of the character of God as he had practiced in heaven, causing Him to be regarded as severe and tyrannical, Satan induced man to sin. And having succeeded thus far, he declared that God's unjust restrictions had led to man's fall, as they had led to his own rebellion."

[Robert]

The fall of Adam did not change the facts of creation.

Baloney! The creation has been ruined....

[Guest]

Hey Robert,

Did they let you off work early because of that bump on your head?

[Just*]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

You should have been here Dr. Rich. Robert was trying to prove that the Sabbath is no longer significant.

Why are you stating untruths? I said the Sabbath of creation was no longer significant! Is God now resting because His work is perfect and complete? No! In fact Jesus said,

John 5:17 "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I [am] the LORD that sanctify them. Ezek 20:12

Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor 5:17

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. Heb 10:10

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Heb 10:14

the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev 13:8

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,2 Timothy 1:9

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.