An Appeal To SDA's On This Site

[Musicman1228]

We have been living in the "time of the end" only since 1994, as I pointed out in my last post. Only those living during the time of the end will be given the opportunity to understand the prophecies related to the time of the end. EGW was not living during the time of the end (which had not arrived yet) so she could not have a complete or accurate understanding of end time prophecy. It wasn't time for the understanding to be revealed. When you put your faith in the interpretation of prophecy written by someone that could not possibly know what she was talking about then how can you trust that interpretation.

Only the wise will understand (Dan.12:10) because the 'wise' are those that are alive at the time that the prophecies are unsealed.

Ellen White thought, believed and hoped that she had reached the time foretold in the scriptures. Unfortunately for her and for our church she had not reached that time.

[Richard Holbrook]

Sounds like you've been talking to Dr. Rich

[Richard Holbrook]

Hey Musicman what kind of music do you make? I've been playing guitar for 30 years.

[Musicman1228]

Rich4truth,

I am a classically trained musician in voice (tenor) and guitar, with secondary instruments piano, sax, clarinet, bass, percussion (non trap set), and banjo. I have made a living in music in recording studios, conducting a number of opera's (including De Fledermaus), any number of oratorios (including Handel's Messiah and Vivaldi's Gloria) and symphony's (including Mozart #38,39,40), and now elementary and High School band. I have conducted Boy Choir, and a professional chorale.I have also taught commercial arranging in college. My wife and I have an album of religious music which include several of my own songs and arrangements, and we have also appeared with our two children (boy and girl) on several occasions on Loma Linda Broadcasting Network. I began my singing career at the age of 2 1/2 when I sang Mallotte's The Lord's Prayer at a wedding. My twin sister was supposed to sing with me but the organ broke and she wouldn't sing so I sang the song solo and unaccompanied. I was also a child actor (under management) and appeared in one full length movie (still in the can-it stank), several TV shows and lots of stage acting. Thankfully my mom and dad got me out of it before it completely ruined me.

As to what types of music I like to play - everything except straight cowboy songs, raggae, and hard rock. Anything else is fair game.

I can hardly wait to get to Heaven and really learn to play piano, from J.S.Bach.

[oldsailor29]

We have been living in the "time of the end" only since 1994

The last valid date was 1843. How is 1994 a valid date? What is the next date for the end? Is something going to happen in 2012? Be careful setting dates, for the next date you set might overshoot the event.

[Richard Holbrook]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

We have been living in the "time of the end" only since 1994

The last valid date was 1843. How is 1994 a valid date? What is the next date for the end? Is something going to happen in 2012? Be careful setting dates, for the next date you set might overshoot the event.

Yes I would be interested to know where this 1994 date came from.

[Musicman1228]

I posted this on another string but saved it in as a Word doc. So in answer to you, Rich4truth, I will re-post it here.

This is the short version. To do a complete explanation would require more space than we have here. I'll try to answer your question as you have them.

*****

There are two things that need to coincide in order to be able to understand prophecy; you need to know the right time for the fulfillment and the right events to be fulfilled. You can get one of them right and the other wrong and still have a misinterpretation of that prophecy. So how do you know if there is even a remote chance to get both of those requirements correct? If prophecy has not been unsealed (the time for the fulfillment has come) then no one can, no matter how committed they are to the Kingdom of God, to spreading the gospel of that Kingdom, or competent in exegesis, understand the correct interpretation of the prophecy, it would be completely impossible. Only prophecies that are unsealed can be understood and correctly interpreted.

But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Dan.12:4.

This verse states that the prophecies of the end of time have a proper time to be understood, and that is only at the appointed time of the end (Matt. 24:45). It is therefore very necessary to know without question WHEN the appointed time of the end is. This is why saying that no one can ever know the day or the hour of the timing of when Jesus is going to come is so wrong. That is not what Jesus either said or meant in Matt. 24:36. Jesus requires us to know. It would be unfair of God to punish the Faithful and Wise servant (who has turned wicked) for NOT KNOWING when He is to come (Matt.24:45-51). The understanding of our church that it is impossible to know the time of the end stems from the reaction to the "Great Disappointment" of 1844 C.E. not from a correct interpretation of prophecy.

Wm. Miller was not living at the appointed time of the end. Ellen White, James White, or any of our original church founders were not living at the appointed time of the end. Neither was the 'apostle' Paul. Yet none of these people knew they were not living in the time of the end. They thought they were. But no one that was living at that time was living during the appointed time of the end. Why can I say this with complete confidence? Because they are ALL dead. No one that was living before the ending of the Restoration calendar (as defined in Lev.25) in 1994 C.E. could possibly know the correct interpretation of any of the end time prophecies in Daniel and Revelation.

Briefly, the Restoration calendar has two key time factors; the 49 years of Jubilee/Restoration (7 weeks of years) and God's limit of forgiveness of 70 (70 x 7 = 490, Matt.18:21-22). Israel became the Kingdom of Heaven at Sinai in 1437 B.C.E. which started the Restoration calendar (restoration of the Kingdom). 49 years (restore factor) x 70 (forgiveness limit) = 3,430 years as the total for the Restoration calendar. Add 3,430 years to 1437 B.C.E. as the beginning of the calendar and you get 1994 C.E. which is the appointed time of the end.

Is this speculative? Certainly. But given what we know about how important timing is to God and the fact that He said He would reveal to us this timing through John, through the angel, by Jesus and the Father (Rev.1:1-3) about when He would come back to get His Kingdom it is also certainly possible, even likely.

Believing that we are living during the appointed time of the end and that we are in the delay spoken of in Rev.7 gives me strength and courage to endure to the end, because I know that He will come in my life time. Wonderful.

Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. Rev.3:10.

*****

I hope this helps.

[Stewart (SDA)]

A thought on the Scrirpture that declares "time shall be no longer".

Two EGW comments which I think are interesting.

#1.

"And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer" (Rev. 10:5, 6). This message announces the end of the prophetic periods." (2SM 108)

#2.

"This time, which the angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world's history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord.

"That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844." (7BC 971.7)

So, according to this, prophetic time has no application beyond 1844.

For those that have confidence in the work of Mrs. White, this is quite a definitive point I believe.

_________

Stewart.

[Musicman1228]

Stewart,

So rather than think for yourself and look at end time prophecy to see what is actually there you will let someone that is now dead do your thinking for you. It is this kind of thing that stopped the early Advent believers from studying for themselves in small groups in homes because EGW would now tell them exactly what to believe without their having to do a thing, except believe her. This caused the prophetic fire to go out of the church and caused the church to go to sleep (see Matt.25:1-13, Rev.3:3, Rev.3:17).

Most Adventists today don't bother with independent research. All that is done today is find new ways of saying what EGW has already said, because if Mrs. White said it that is all that needs to be said.

What upsets people about what it is that I and my friends do is that we don't use any previous eschatology from whatever the source, we look at everything with fresh eyes to see if it makes sense strictly from an independent prophetic stand point. Because of this we have come to a very different understanding than what the SDA church has (because of EGW). This is confusing to hard line SDA's who don't understand how we can not use EGW as the basis for our understanding.

I am sorry, but I refuse to give any person (other than Jesus Christ) the power to control my thoughts and understanding as the church has obviously given to EGW.

The only way the church will wake up is if individuals will take responsibility for their own prophetic understanding and not take the word of anyone else over what the Holy Spirit shows to them. Why is it that so many SDA's believe that the Holy Spirit won't or doesn't need to work with them as an individual because the Holy Spirit supposedly revealed all the truth that is fit to print to an end time prophet? Why is it that so many SDA's give over their salvation and eternal life to someone other than Jesus Christ? That just doesn't make sense to me.

[Stewart (SDA)]

Stewart,

So rather than think for yourself and look at end time prophecy to see what is actually there you will let someone that is now dead do your thinking for you. It is this kind of thing that stopped the early Advent believers from studying for themselves in small groups in homes because EGW would now tell them exactly what to believe without their having to do a thing, except believe her. This caused the prophetic fire to go out of the church and caused the church to go to sleep (see Matt.25:1-13, Rev.3:3, Rev.3:17).

Most Adventists today don't bother with independent research. All that is done today is find new ways of saying what EGW has already said, because if Mrs. White said it that is all that needs to be said.

What upsets people about what it is that I and my friends do is that we don't use any previous eschatology from whatever the source, we look at everything with fresh eyes to see if it makes sense strictly from an independent prophetic stand point. Because of this we have come to a very different understanding than what the SDA church has (because of EGW). This is confusing to hard line SDA's who don't understand how we can not use EGW as the basis for our understanding.

I am sorry, but I refuse to give any person (other than Jesus Christ) the power to control my thoughts and understanding as the church has obviously given to EGW.

The only way the church will wake up is if individuals will take responsibility for their own prophetic understanding and not take the word of anyone else over what the Holy Spirit shows to them. Why is it that so many SDA's believe that the Holy Spirit won't or doesn't need to work with them as an individual because the Holy Spirit supposedly revealed all the truth that is fit to print to an end time prophet? Why is it that so many SDA's give over their salvation and eternal life to someone other than Jesus Christ? That just doesn't make sense to me.

__________

Well spoken Musicman, but I cannot agree. I will try to reply tomorrow.

Regards,

Stewart.

[oldsailor29]

Why is it that so many SDA's give over their salvation and eternal life to someone other than Jesus Christ? That just doesn't make sense to me.

We think we find salvation in Moses and the prophets, but they lead us to Jesus. Our salvation can only be found in Him.

[Musicman1228]

John317, you said, "Our salvation can only be found in Him", so why do you still insist on putting your life in the hands of someone other than Jesus, someone such as Paul, or EGW, or Joseph Smith. If we are to test the spirits (the spirit behind the person) then we must be fair across the board. Why is it that we will put Joseph Smith to a test that we will not put to EGW?

We find Joseph Smith to be a false prophet, and rightly so, yet when we put EGW or Paul to that same test we look at the results and say "That just can't be true, there must be some mistake". I believe that if you test EGW or even Paul by the same criteria as you use for Joseph Smith the results would be the same. Just because something is difficult to face and makes us uncomfortable does not automatically make it wrong. Test the spirit behind Paul and EGW using the criteria of the Words of Jesus Christ as given to His own disciples while He was still on this earth and see what you find. If you do this clinically, dispassionately and honestly I am sure you will be surprised by what you find.

What is wrong with using only the Words of Jesus Christ as our guide to truth? Why do you excoriate me for doing the very thing that you just said that I should do, that is, put my salvation only in Jesus Christ? You can't have it both ways, either Jesus reveals Truth to the world or He doesn't. If He does reveal the Truth then why do we need anyone else to explain it. The only reason to use Paul or EGW or ANYONE else to explain truth is if you do not believe that Jesus did a good enough job on His own, if you do not believe that the Holy Spirit can and will work with you directly to guide you into all truth.

Why use a 'middle man' when you can get the Truth from the source of Truth, Jesus Christ?

[Twilight]

Why use a 'middle man' when you can get the Truth from the source of Truth, Jesus Christ?

The Holy Spirit used prophets.

To deny them validity is to deny the Holy Spirit.

Are you proposing we ignore the testimony of God?

Mark :-)

[John317]

We find Joseph Smith to be a false prophet, and rightly so, yet when we put EGW or Paul to that same test we look at the results and say "That just can't be true, there must be some mistake". I believe that if you test EGW or even Paul by the same criteria as you use for Joseph Smith the results would be the same.

I've studied Joseph Smith and looked closely at his writings as well as at how he "translated" the plates which the so-called "angel" gave to him.

There is a world of difference between Ellen White and Joseph Smith.

The fact that you would try to persuade Seventh-day Adventists that Ellen G. White and the Apostle Paul are as false a Joseph Smith speaks volumes.

[John317]

... either Jesus reveals Truth to the world or He doesn't. If He does reveal the Truth then why do we need anyone else to explain it. The only reason to use Paul or EGW or ANYONE else to explain truth is if you do not believe that Jesus did a good enough job on His own, if you do not believe that the Holy Spirit can and will work with you directly to guide you into all truth.

Why use a 'middle man' when you can get the Truth from the source of Truth, Jesus Christ?

You could make the same argument about any of the books in the Bible. It is the reason some people reject the Old Testament. It is the reason still others only accept the five books of Moses.

We really need all the truth that God sends us through His prophets, including Paul and Ellen White. I'm glad for all of it.

[John317]

John317, you said, "Our salvation can only be found in Him", so why do you still insist on putting your life in the hands of someone other than Jesus, someone such as Paul, or EGW, or Joseph Smith. If we are to test the spirits (the spirit behind the person) then we must be fair across the board. Why is it that we will put Joseph Smith to a test that we will not put to EGW?

You're evidently replying to Oldsailor29, but what he said is true. Our salvation is only found in Christ. Neither Ellen White nor Paul died for us. They are not our Savior, but they were chosen as God's messengers to give us messages from God.

Joseph Smith is a false prophet, so I am not sure why you bring him up unless it is to try and cause confusion over whether Paul and Ellen White were as false as Joseph Smith.

I've tested Paul and Ellen White and I find they are true prophets, whereas I'm certain that Joseph Smith is a false prophet. If you study them and find that all three are false prophets, I would consider your conclusion invalid but I wouldn't necessarily be surprised.

Let everyone study and be fully persuaded in his own mind.

[Musicman1228]

Is not the test of a prophet whether their message is completely true? Is there any wiggle room in that,in your opinion? I mean, can a prophet be a true prophet of God and have just a little something wrong, or do they have to be right 100% of the time? I personally think the latter, which is why I know Joseph Smith is false, just as do you. But his followers are firmly convinced of his veracity as much or more so as are you about EGW. They are obviously mistaken but they won't see it because they choose to be blind. Is there even a remote possibility that you are mistaken as well, and that you also are choosing to be blind?

So my question; has there been any prophecy of EGW, even one small thing, that EGW confirmed by her word as true that is not true as proven by the Words of Jesus Christ, Daniel, or Revelation? Or are her prophecies confirmed in every single detail by triangulation between the Words of Jesus, Daniel and Revelation? Please go to GC-433 and confirm that what she says about the 7th Trumpet is actually true.

[John317]

..... do they have to be right 100% of the time? I personally think the latter, which is why I know Joseph Smith is false, just as do you. But his followers are firmly convinced of his veracity as much or more so as are you about EGW. They are obviously mistaken but they won't see it because they choose to be blind.

The reason I reject Smith as a true prophet is not because he wasn't right 100% of the time. It's because of hundreds of things, including his sending his followers to destroy the printing press that published an article about his relations with women. Also, how he "translated" the "reformed Egyptian" on the plates, and the fact that he claims an angel took those plates to heaven. The fact, too, that Smith had men whom he later admitted were dishonest sign an oath that they knew the book of Mormon was "correctly translated" from plates which they could not read.

Those are just a few things.

I know quite a few people who are equally persuaded that the Watchtower is of God. I know people who believe in the Buddha and others who believe that Muhammad was a true prophet. As a psych tech, I worked with one woman who was absolutely convinced that she was Marie Antoinette, queen of France.

The psychiatrist was talking about some of the clients on that particular ward. He said, "Now take Janice, for instance." He pointed to a middle-aged woman who was dusting some office furniture nearby. "Janice here believes she is Marie Antoinette, don't you, Janice?" And Janice got a big, proud smile on her face and nodded her head. "Yes, I do, Doctor," she said. "I know I'm Marie Antoinette."

The bottom line is that I can't determine my convictions or beliefs according to someone else's beliefs. Each person has to study the evidence and make his decision on the basis of how he sees the weight of evidence. It shouldn't be expected that everyone will agree on the decision.

I don't believe that all Mormons choose to be blind. Some do, some don't. It's very hard to judge that. We can't read the heart and mind.

[Richard Holbrook]

This is to Musicman and Dr. Rich: (and whoever else wants to read it)

I went to your website and read about the 144,000 and about Jesus being crucified on wednesday and being resurrected on the sabbath, and some other stuff. I didn't read the whole website, but I read enough.

First of all, anytime somebody has to throw out Ellen G. White and most of the New Testament in order to back up what they believe, I normally don't give them a second glance. I know at that point already that what they have is not from God. The reason I kept reading as long as I did, I guess was out of curiosity. That and you call yourselves Adventists.

If you don't believe that God was able to preserve his word down through the ages, and keep herecy out of it, then what makes you believe they got the words of Jesus right? After all if Satan was allowed to tamper with the word of God to the extent you say, don't you think he would go after the words of Christ even more?

You say on your website that righteousness is not a gift. You say it's something you learn.

If that is true and it's not a gift then it is your own righteousness.

If it's something you have to learn, then what about the thief on the cross? He didn't have time to learn anything. I guess Jesus' Righteousness will have to do for him, no?

But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Matt. 6:33

He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation. Ps 24:5

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isa 64:6

And yes I will quote Paul even though you think it's of the devil, because I have not thrown him out as you have. He taught the gospel of Christ.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:8

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Rom 5:17

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2Pet 1:1

You said we are not saved by his blood or his death. If that is true then why did he have to die in the first place?

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt 26:28

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. Jn 6:53,54

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Rev 1:5

So much of what I read was just speculation and innuendo, that I am surprised you have allowed yourselves to become so heavily invested in this. But because you have it is going to be hard to turn back now.

I submit to you that if you don't turn back, and stop trying to teach this error to others as the truth, you are going to lose your very souls. You are following the teachings of one man, (Rick Sterling) who has done away with large portions of scripture and Ellen White. Do you not find this strange and extreme?

She saw this coming though and predicted it. So I know that time is short.

I can back up what I believe with the Bible alone, but I would never presume that I could throw parts of it out the window because it dosn't go along with what I'm trying to make fit. If the Bible dosn't coincide with your beliefs or vise versa, that right there tells you something is wrong.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Tim 3:16

[Dr. Rich]

Rich4Truth wrote: “First of all, anytime somebody has to throw out Ellen G. White and most of the New Testament in order to back up what they believe, I normally don't give them a second glance.”

It is clear from your diatribe that you have NOT even taken a second glance much less taken the time to actually study what is written on the website you claim you ‘glanced’ at. If you treat the bible the same way, shame on you. Almost everything that this Sabbath School class has learned came from in-depth study—something that obviously you refuse to do. Surface swimmers never get to see the whole picture.

You also wrote “If it's something you have to learn, then what about the thief on the cross? He didn't have time to learn anything. I guess Jesus' Righteousness will have to do for him, no?”

The story about the thief on the cross can only be found in Luke. However, even IF this story is true, you didn’t read enough to understand the difference between ‘justification’ and ‘sanctification’. You would have seen that when a person repents honestly, that they are then justified – but they must keep seeking the truth and giving up the lies that they have learned. If one dies during their search for truth-grace is what saves them. Here is the thing: 1) There is a major difference between those who die and failing to learn the whole truth (which no one has so far) from those who are alive during the time of trouble where they will have a chance to make a choice for truth. 2) IF this person who has repented turns around and stops searching for the truth feeling they are safe where they are, then they have a good chance of being lost during the time of trouble. (Of course you didn’t ‘glance’ enough to pick this up.)

You also wrote verses from Paul where he said we are saved by grace and not by works. If that is true, they why are you a SDA? Why profess to keeping any of the ten commandments? You can’t have your cake and eat it too!

Then you wrote a verse from 2Peter 1:1 and actually believe that Peter the disciple wrote this? If you would have taken more then just a ‘glance’ you would have found the evidence supporting the fact that Peter could NOT have written this.

And, why did Jesus have to die? You certainly didn’t read enough to find the answer to this either, did you? It’s simple—you and I would not have been here IF Adam had been killed on the day he ate of the tree of learning good and evil. His death was to pay the PENALTY for ONLY Adam and those of us that accept what He did because if we refuse to accept this then when we try to pay our own penalty it just wouldn’t work—it would be the 2nd death. Jesus’ death was exactly what the death of the Passover Lamb was all about—it saved ONLY those who obey what He commanded His bondservants to do. Adam’s death did not pay any penalty for it was not the second death. Adam was created mortal and would have died even IF he had never eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil—except for the fact that he still had access to the tree of life.

And then you wrote “So much of what I read was just speculation and innuendo, that I am surprised you have allowed yourselves to become so heavily invested in this. But because you have it is going to be hard to turn back now.”

You accuse me of participating in speculation and innuendo. Yes, I will admit that some of what you will read is speculation, but when that is done I also tell you it is theory or speculation. As for the rest—please be my guest and show me or prove to me what you wrote, for the most part it slanders what is the real truth—not the trooth you have allowed yourself to build your house on. As what I have done every time someone says the stuff you alleged, show me and prove it by using the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses! If you can do that—then I will gladly change. Can you say the same? IF not, then you can’t say that Paul’s gospel is the same as Jesus’ gospel.

[Dr. Rich]

John317 wrote: "I've tested Paul and Ellen White and I find they are true prophets, whereas I'm certain that Joseph Smith is a false prophet. If you study them and find that all three are false prophets, I would consider your conclusion invalid but I wouldn't necessarily be surprised."

John, would you be so kind as to share the 'test' you used?

[Richard Holbrook]

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:8

Nowhere does this say you no longer have to keep the law.

Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Grace is actually the power to keep the law.

[Richard Holbrook]

As far as reading further for answers on your website goes, I read enough to see there are no answers there. Your best studying or your "in depth study" as you call it, led you to throw out the writings of Paul, Luke, and Peter.

How do you expect anyone to take you seriously?

[phkrause]

Good post Rich4truth.

pk

[Richard Holbrook]

Thanks pk, did you read what he called a diatribe?