An Appeal To SDA's On This Site

[John317]

When Jesus told Peter to feed his sheep the word used is Arnion. Jesus is not telling Peter to feed Him, but His Arnion/little lambs.

In John 21: 15, Jesus said, "Feed My lambs." "Lambs" [ta arnia] here, of course, is plural, and therefore it goes without saying that it means something different than the word, arnion, means in Rev. 19: 7, 9. I see no evidence that in Rev. 19, the word refers to anyone but Jesus Christ. Jesus is getting married in those passages, and it is not the marriage of Christ's brothers and sisters but the marriage of Christ.

Rev. 5: 6,8, 13 also refers to a Lamb [arnion, arniou, to arnio], and in all three cases, in the singular, it is referring only to Jesus Christ, not to anyone else.

The same applies to Rev. 15: 5 where the word is tou apniou, a singular noun, referring to "the song of the Lamb."

Yet again the same applies to Rev. 17:14, which speaks of the "beast which makes war" "with the Lamb [tou arniou]" "and the Lamb [to arnion] will conquer them."

The same word, and referring strictly to Jesus Christ, is used in Rev. 21: 9, 14. Here it speaks of "the bride of the Lamb" [tou arniou] and "twelve apostles of the Lamb" [tou arniou].

Other passages where the same word occurs, and where it is singular and obviously only has reference to Jesus Christ are Rev. 21: 22, 23, 27; 22: 1, 3.

Would you agree that none of the above refer to "the siblings of the Lamb" but only to the Lamb, Jesus Christ?

Quote:

When the words "they" and "theirs" are used in connection with lamb by context the word lamb is from Arnion.

In the book of Revelation, the word "lamb" is ALWAYS from arnion, whether or not it is accompanied by the words "they" and "theirs."

Quote:

In Rev. 19:7-8 the word "lamb" is Arnion, the diminutive form or AREN which means as male lamb. Lamb here is also used in conjunction with a plural noun, in this case "saints", with certainly implies more that one.

Yes, Strongs #704 refers to the male lamb.

In both verses, 7 and 9, tou arniou can only refer to one person, Jesus Christ.

Luke 10: 3. "Go your way. Behold, I send you as lambs [arnas] in the midst of wolves."

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 704

Original Word Word Origin

ajrhvn perhaps the same as (730)

Transliterated Word TDNT Entry

Aren 1:340,54

Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech

ar-ane' Noun Masculine

Definition

a sheep, a lamb

King James Word Usage - Total: 1

lamb 1

Here is Strongs # 730, closely related to the above word, Strongs #704--

Strong's Number: 730

Original Word Word Origin

a[rrhn probably from (142)

Transliterated Word TDNT Entry

Arrhen None

Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech

ar'-hrane Adjective

Definition

a male

King James Word Usage - Total: 9

male 4, man 3, man child 1, man child + (5207)&version=kjv 1

KJV Verse Count

Matthew 1

M

Quote:

The words Arnon and Arnion mean different things (as in singular and plural) and should be taken to mean exactly what they mean in the context in which the prophecy is written.

arnon is gen. plural of aren but does not occur in the book of Revelation.

The word, arnion, is the Lexical form, which is nominative singular masculine.

The word "lamb" is always singular in the book of Revelation and always refers to Jesus Christ alone and never refers to "siblings of the lamb."

[LifeHiscost]

Answers in order:

LifeHisCost-

Please explain what you meant by your statement:

OTOH that type of reasoning would set the book of Revelation dead in its' tracks, as the first few verses reveal Truth to be delivered to other than Jesus, who is now dead, for the sake of the body of Christ.

Why would the type of reasoning that shows that Paul was a fraud cause Revelation to be 'dead in its tracks'. Rev.1:1-3 tell the progression of the transfer of information that God needed to reveal to Jesus Christ - something that He did not know while He was still on earth. God revealed this information to Jesus, who gave it to His angel, who gave it to John, who gives it to the Bondservants of Jesus. This passage gives the chain of evidence of the information so that we can be 100% sure that it came from God. What is the information? The timing and events leading to the return of Jesus Christ to this earth.

The commitment to receiving only the Word that was spoken directly by Jesus, before one could believe it to be true, makes the first few words spoken by the servant of Jesus in the book of Revelation, unacceptable, since it is John writing these words, part of those who spoke without anything but their own testimony that what they wrote was from Jesus.

And that was the criteria that was used to discredit Paul as speaking or writing the Truth.

I'm supposing that also discredits anyone that gives testimony about their personal experience with Jesus, as suspect. Which means one also probably would not accept the word of the individual who Jesus told to go back unto his own people and tell them what great things the Lord had done for him.

"Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near." Rev 1:3 NKJV

"...he who had been demon-possessed begged Him that he might be with Him. However, Jesus did not permit him, but said to him, “Go home to your friends, and tell them what great things the Lord has done for you, and how He has had compassion on you.” And he departed and began to proclaim in Decapolis all that Jesus had done for him; and all marveled."Mark 5:18-20 NKJV

And , of course, sadly all of these books would also be discredited under that very narrow rule of acceptance.

"And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen. "John 21:25 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

This passage DOES NOT say "righteous acts of Jesus for us". Our deeds matter, if not for us as individuals (which they do) but for the Bride. Without the righteous acts of the saints (bondservants) the Bride cannot make herself ready for the wedding.

If our righteousness is what is being relied on, this is what it amounts to.

"But we are all like an unclean thing,And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away."

Isaiah 64:6 NKJV

"To some who were confident of their own righteousness...., Jesus told this parable..."Luke 18:9 NIV

"....found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;"Philippians 3:9 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. Jn 15:5

[LifeHiscost]

In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. JER 33:16

[LifeHiscost]

Definition

a little lamb, a lamb

King James Word Usage - Total: 30

Lamb i.e. Christ 28, lamb 2

[LifeHiscost]

Exactly! thanks. The blood, death or His life does NOT set one free from sin. It is what one does with the blood, His death and His life--

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-33 KJV

The truth is what sets one free. Jesus is the Truth.

"Jesus saith unto him, 'I am....the truth..."John 14:6 KJV

Blessings!

[Musicman1228]

LifeHiscost,

Right on.

You pointed out the John 8 text in which Jesus said, "If you CONTINUE in My word , , ,"

The word "continue" indicates a process that begins by justification, and then moves on from there to sanctification-the process by which you put the words of Jesus (words of Truth) in your life by replacing the words of others (lies).

For me; you either continue (abide) in the words of Jesus or you continue in lies.

[Richard Holbrook]

n Rev. 19:7-8 the word "lamb" is Arnion, the diminutive form or AREN which means as male lamb. Lamb here is also used in conjunction with a plural noun, in this case "saints", with certainly implies more that one.

There is nothing plural here about the word lamb. how do you come up with that?

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

First it refers to the Lamb (Jesus) and then his wife (the saints) The word used here (arnion) is in no way plural. If it was the text wouldn't even make sense. You would have the wife marrying the wife.

[Twilight]

Yes John, because the word used there is arnion. But the word used for Jesus being the passover lamb was Amnos" (Strongs 286). You can find this in John 1:29.

John, your questions strike me kinda funny. Would not you agree that those found in Revelation 12:17 would be the brothers and sisters of Jesus--them haveing the same mother the Holy Spirit? If so, then why would it not fit for these little lambs or sheep as Jesus told Peter to feed, to be the saints found in Revelation 19:8? After all, they must have been sealed (born again) before the time of trouble for some good reason. Right? Haven't you ever asked yourself why the 144k are sealed before the multitude standing before the throne in Rev. 7:8-? And haven't you ever wondered about Revelation 11:1 and 2 where the inner court is judged first?

Then the big question--haven't you ever wondered why God established the process of Atonement the way He did? I mean, first the High Priest, second the priest tribe and then third the camp/nation of Israel? Why? Why mess around with this and not get it all done at once?

Satan wants us to believe that Jesus did this all at once that that it is now over. What Jesus did, was the first step--Him being the High Priest. John 17 states that Jesus became sanctified so that we may also become sanctified. Why would Jesus become sanctified if He was already perfect?

Why didn't Jesus say that He became sanctified so that we all are NOW also sanctified if we just believe that? You don't have to answer now, just let it soak in for a while and think about it. I would also suggest you pray about this too, and ask the Holy Spirit to help you out. Enjoy

Dr. Rich, (SDA)

he same mother the Holy Spirit?

Where exactly did you find that idea Dr. Rich?

Mark

[Musicman1228]

I never said the word arnion itself was plural, I stated that the context was plural because of the words "they" and "their" and that is what makes the use of the word plural.

So in this case it DOES NOT refer to Jesus Christ. The 'saints' ARE NOT the Bride, they are the bondservants of the Master of the house, the Bridgroom. Again you stopped short of using the entire context of the passage by using only one verse, and you did this on purpose to prove your point. Verse 8 completes the context:

"It was granted her (the bride) to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints."

Note that it doesn't say the righteous acts of Jesus Christ clothe the Bride, but the righteous acts of the saints. That context would make the word 'arnion' (little lambs) plural, not the word itself.

Just because you don't like what it says does not mean you should change the context to fit your theology.

[John317]

I never said the word arnion itself was plural, I stated that the context was plural because of the words "they" and "their" and that is what makes the use of the word plural.

So in this case it DOES NOT refer to Jesus Christ. The 'saints' ARE NOT the Bride, they are the bondservants of the Master of the house, the Bridgroom.

In Rev. 19: 7, 9, we know that the words tou Arniou refer to Christ because it speaks of "His wife." The masculine, singular pronoun obviously refers to Jesus Christ. None of these words are plural. "His wife" can only refer to the wife of Christ. It is not referring to the wife of the saints.

The words, "righteous deeds of the saints," don't change the fact that the words tou Arniou are singular and refer to the One who is marrying the bride. Christ's followers are not marrying the bride. The church-- i.e., the saints-- is the bride. In Mark 2: 19, Jesus refers to Himself as the bridegroom, and Paul in 2 Cor. 11: 2 also speaks of Christ as the bridegroom who marries the church.

In Rev. 14: 4, the virgins, i.e. saints, follow the Lamb [to Arnio] wherever He goes. That is an obvious reference to the saints who follow Christ.

It would be a more accurate statement to say that "just because you don't like what it says does not mean you should change" the meaning "to fit your theology." Our theology should be determined by the language of Scripture and not the other way around.

In this case, there is simply no linguistic or contextual evidence at all that "to Arnio" should be understood to mean "the siblings of the lamb" rather than the Lamb Himself.

[Richard Holbrook]

Ditto

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Answers in order:

LifeHisCost-

Please explain what you meant by your statement:

OTOH that type of reasoning would set the book of Revelation dead in its' tracks, as the first few verses reveal Truth to be delivered to other than Jesus, who is now dead, for the sake of the body of Christ.

Why would the type of reasoning that shows that Paul was a fraud cause Revelation to be 'dead in its tracks'. Rev.1:1-3 tell the progression of the transfer of information that God needed to reveal to Jesus Christ - something that He did not know while He was still on earth. God revealed this information to Jesus, who gave it to His angel, who gave it to John, who gives it to the Bondservants of Jesus. This passage gives the chain of evidence of the information so that we can be 100% sure that it came from God. What is the information? The timing and events leading to the return of Jesus Christ to this earth.

The commitment to receiving only the Word that was spoken directly by Jesus, before one could believe it to be true, makes the first few words spoken by the servant of Jesus in the book of Revelation, unacceptable, since it is John writing these words, part of those who spoke without anything but their own testimony that what they wrote was from Jesus.

And that was the criteria that was used to discredit Paul as speaking or writing the Truth.

I'm supposing that also discredits anyone that gives testimony about their personal experience with Jesus, as suspect. Which means one also probably would not accept the word of the individual who Jesus told to go back unto his own people and tell them what great things the Lord had done for him.

"Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near." Rev 1:3 NKJV

"...he who had been demon-possessed begged Him that he might be with Him. However, Jesus did not permit him, but said to him, “Go home to your friends, and tell them what great things the Lord has done for you, and how He has had compassion on you.” And he departed and began to proclaim in Decapolis all that Jesus had done for him; and all marveled."Mark 5:18-20 NKJV

And , of course, sadly all of these books would also be discredited under that very narrow rule of acceptance.

"And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen. "John 21:25 NKJV

Blessings!

Exactly...

[Richard Holbrook]

I never said the word arnion itself was plural, I stated that the context was plural because of the words "they" and "their" and that is what makes the use of the word plural.

So in this case it DOES NOT refer to Jesus Christ. The 'saints' ARE NOT the Bride, they are the bondservants of the Master of the house, the Bridgroom.

[wayfinder]

Meet the bride.

Revelation 14:6

And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;

Revelation 7:9

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

Re 7:13,14 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The reason that the Bridegroom has been and continues to delay His coming is that the bride is not ready (see Matthew 25:5 5 "Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.). The only reason that a bridegroom would delay his wedding is if his bride wasn't ready to go immediately to the wedding feast.

So the wedding party consists of the Bondservants/priests 144,000 (Matt. 24:41-52; Revelation 7:3, 4) the bridesmaids or kingdom of heaven or saints, also known as "Holy People" (Matt. 25:1-13), and the bride described above.

[Richard Holbrook]

First you give text describing the saints, then you turn around and say the saints are not the Bride. How is that?

Are not the ones who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb saints?

[wayfinder]

The saved consist of three groups. The 144,000, these are the Bondservants/Priests (Matthew 24:42-51). The kingdom of heaven (Matthew 25:1-13). The bride of Christ comes from every nation, kindred... (Revelation 19:7). God has not kept His plan for restoration a secret and He has not changed His plan, for to change His plan would be an admission on His part that His original plan was somehow not workable. This was God's plan when He called His kingdom out of Egypt. The priests were from the tribe of Levi, the kingdom was the twelve tribes, and together they were to shine the light of the true God to every nation tribe and people.

The term saints is just another way of saying "holy people" the holy people are the kingdom of God.

Re 17:14

"These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."

In the above text we see three groups, the called, chosen and faithful. The called would be the bride, the chosen are the priests, and the faithful are the kingdom.

[Richard Holbrook]

To be saved you will have to be all three, called, chosen, and faithful.

At the end of time there will only be two (2) groups on the earth. The ones with the mark of the beast, and the ones with the seal of God.

[LifeHiscost]

LifeHiscost,

Right on.

You pointed out the John 8 text in which Jesus said, "If you CONTINUE in My word , , ,"

The word "continue" indicates a process that begins by justification, and then moves on from there to sanctification-the process by which you put the words of Jesus (words of Truth) in your life by replacing the words of others (lies).

For me; you either continue (abide) in the words of Jesus or you continue in lies.

I would say I pretty much agree, except for the underlined. If I'm the one who puts the words, it still means salvation by my works, what I put, even though the words be the right words in the right place.

May I suggest, resting in Him is accomplished as a result of not resisting His abiding presence.

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."John 15:16 NKJV

“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.John 15:5 NKJV

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me."John 15:4 KJV

"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him."John 6:56 NASB

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever"John 14:16 KJV

"But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”"Matthew 19:26 NKJV

Blessings!

[wayfinder]

What I was trying to show is that since Israel left Egypt there have been three groups of people who have been, are, and always will be, God's people. The priests (tribe of Levi/144,000), the kingdom (12 tribes of Israel/12 tribes spiritual Israel), every nation and tribe and tongue and people (mixed multitude/numberless multitude).

Jeremiah 3:17 "At that time they will call Jerusalem 'The Throne of the LORD,' and all the nations will be gathered to it, to Jerusalem, for the name of the LORD; nor will they walk anymore after the stubbornness of their evil heart.

I realize that the above text was conditional to literal Israel, but the idea is the same for the New Jerusalem

[Richard Holbrook]

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Sealed and marked. Two groups

[LifeHiscost]

the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints."

Beg to differ. The fine linen is the righteousness of Jesus Christ given to the saints.

"But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption"1 Corinthians 1:30 NKJV

A principle active under any context except being an adversary of God or of His children.

"I will bless those who bless you,And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”" Genesis 12:3 NKJV

Regards!

[Richard Holbrook]

I quoted the KJV

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints."

Beg to differ. The fine linen is the righteousness of Jesus Christ given to the saints.

The Greek word used here is, dikaiomata, "righteous deeds."

As Ellen White says, "It is the righteousness of Christ, His own unblemished character, that through faith is IMPARTED to all who receive Him as their personal Savior." COL 310-311.

Elsewhere she says that the robe of Christ's righteousness is both the imputed and the imparted righteousness of Christ. True justification always results in a change of character which in turns results in righteous deeds.