An Appeal To SDA's On This Site

[Richard Holbrook]

Quote:

Musicman said:

Paul would establish a church and teach them his gospel of grace, then the Jerusalem Assembly, headed by James, Peter, and John, would send people to that church and try to bring them back to the gospel that was taught by Jesus. This made Paul very angry..

Where does it say they were trying to bring people away from Pauls church? That's not what it says at all. Peter was being two faced in that he would eat with the gentiles until certain people came around, then he would separate himself from them.

Gal 2:12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.

13- And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

14- But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? {NKJV}

Nor does it say he became very angry. He simply confronted Peter about this hypocrisy.

[Richard Holbrook]

Quote:

musicman: This is why he warned them that anyone who came to them teaching a gospel different from the one that he taught them, even if it was an angel from heaven (he was pointing at James, Peter, and John when he said this, knowing that they were not angels) that they should be accursed. Cursing someone for teaching something different than you have taught does not sound rational to me.

I will quote John317:

Paul is not talking about Peter's gospel. Peter preached the same gospel. Paul doesn't find fault with what Peter was preaching. Peter's problem was that he didn't always live up to what he knew. As Paul says in Gal. 2: 12, 13, Peter changed his behavior (not his gospel) for fear of the circumcision. Compare Acts 10, 11.

[John317]

Answers in order:

Paul would establish a church and teach them his gospel of grace, then the Jerusalem Assembly, headed by James, Peter, and John, would send people to that church and try to bring them back to the gospel that was taught by Jesus. This made Paul very angry,

Please show NT references for this.

Where do you find that Paul was "angry" or that he was combatting the gospel being taught by James, Peter, and John?

This is not what is being said in Acts 21: 17-26 or in Acts 15.

[Musicman1228]

LifeHisCost-

"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."Revelation 12:11 KJV

If you look up the word for 'lamb' in this verse you will be astounded as to it's true meaning. There are two words in Greek for lamb; Arnon-a (male) lamb one years old or older, a mature lamb, and; arnion-a lamb less than one year old, a lambkin, a little or immature lamb, the siblings of the Lamb. Now why would there be this kind of distinction? Please notice (and don't blow this off as the ravings of a lunatic) but the passage say "by the word of THEIR testimony". This implies that the lamb as stated here is plural. The Greek word for "Lamb" here is indeed "lambkin" which means "the siblings (brothers and sisters) of the Lamb. This passage IS NOT talking about what Jesus does (as most believe). This passage is speaking about what we, the brothers and sisters of the Lamb (Jesus Christ) will do. WE will overcome Satan by shedding our own blood (souls under the altar) for the sake of the world during the great tribulation. One confirming text that uses the same word, "arnion" or little lamb, is;

Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb (lambkin) has come, and his (their) Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. Rev.17:7-8.

This passage DOES NOT say "righteous acts of Jesus for us". Our deeds matter, if not for us as individuals (which they do) but for the Bride. Without the righteous acts of the saints (bondservants) the Bride cannot make herself ready for the wedding.

[Dr. Rich]

John, many witnessed the voice of God and the dove when Jesus was baptized which therefore ratifyied the truth in Jesus.

The whole nation of Israel witnessed God's presence with Moses for over 40 years--now if you can't agree that didn't ratify the truth with Moses, you have a serious problem.

I suppose one could say that prophets told Paul not to go to Jerusalem at one time, but then Paul ignored these prophets and went anyway. Hmmm?

I suppose one could say witnesses’ saw that a snake bite didn’t hurt Paul—but then history shows this island didn’t have any poisonous snakes on it. Hmmm?

[Richard Holbrook]

Please notice (and don't blow this off as the ravings of a lunatic) but the passage say "by the word of THEIR testimony". This implies that the lamb as stated here is plural. The Greek word for "Lamb" here is indeed "lambkin" which means "the siblings (brothers and sisters) of the Lamb. This passage IS NOT talking about what Jesus does (as most believe).

The word "THEIR" is referring to the overcomers, not the lamb.

THEY (the overcomers) overcame by the blood of the lamb, AND by the word of their (the overcomers) testimony.

This is obvious to anybody.

My goodness, what you don't throw out, you twist.

[Richard Holbrook]

This passage DOES NOT say "righteous acts of Jesus for us". Our deeds matter, if not for us as individuals (which they do) but for the Bride. Without the righteous acts of the saints (bondservants) the Bride cannot make herself ready for the wedding.

You seem to think Jesus dosn't do anything for us.

He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. Jn 15:5

[Dr. Rich]

Rich4Truth, when you say that your opinion is obvious to anybody it reminds me of lawyers (and the IRS) who don't have any evidence or facts backing them up and just want to slam the door on your face. So tell me, what testimony does the group that come out of the tribulation hear and who provides this testimony?

Knowing what takes place at the end is essential for the wise. Again, none of the wicked will understand and I can't change that. Some day soon this will all be explained in a way so that the wise will understand. Right now may not be the time to try to feed people who are not yet hungry.

[Richard Holbrook]

In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. JER 33:16

[John317]

LifeHisCost-

"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."Revelation 12:11 KJV

.... arnion-a lamb less than one year old, a lambkin, a little or immature lamb, the siblings of the Lamb. Now why would there be this kind of distinction? Please notice (and don't blow this off as the ravings of a lunatic) but the passage say "by the word of THEIR testimony". This implies that the lamb as stated here is plural. The Greek word for "Lamb" here is indeed "lambkin" which means "the siblings (brothers and sisters) of the Lamb.

Please show references-- Greek-English dictionaries or lexicons-- that the Greek word arnion means "the siblings of the Lamb."

All of the lexicons that I have show "a little lamb, a young lamb, a lamb, sheep." Strongs # 721.

The word is singular in Rev. 12: 11.

Lexicons > Greek > Arnion

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 721 Browse Lexicon

Original Word Word Origin

?Arniv diminutive from (704)

Transliterated Word TDNT Entry

Arnion 1:340,*

Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech

ar-nee'-on Noun Neuter

Definition

a little lamb, a lamb

King James Word Usage - Total: 30

Lamb i.e. Christ 28, lamb 2

[Richard Holbrook]

Rich4Truth, when you say that your opinion is obvious to anybody it reminds me of lawyers...

Opinion has nothing to do with how the text reads. Just read it how it's written.

[Richard Holbrook]

Please show references Greek-English dictionaries or lexicons that the Greek word arnion means "the siblings of the Lamb."

All of the lexicons that I have show "a little lamb, a young lamb, a lamb, sheep." Strongs # 721.

The word is singular in Rev. 12: 11.

Lexicons > Greek > Arnion

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 721 Browse Lexicon

Original Word Word Origin

?Arniv diminutive from (704)

Transliterated Word TDNT Entry

Arnion 1:340,*

Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech

ar-nee'-on Noun Neuter

Definition

a little lamb, a lamb

King James Word Usage - Total: 30

Lamb i.e. Christ 28, lamb 2

Just another case of them reading something that isn't there John.

[Nan]

According to Musicman," "lambkin" which means "the siblings (brothers and sisters) of the Lamb."

Just for the record....

The English word "lambkin" means a little lamb, not

"the siblings of the lamb", according to a dictionary

which I consulted.

[Dr. Rich]

Yes, this issue on 'lamb' is very confusing. John used a different word "Amnos" (Strongs 286) to present Jesus as the Passover Lamb--the perfect lamb for sacrifice. If you read what Strongs 286 says about the two words: Amnos and Arnion you will see that in later times, the translators mixed this up and used Arnion instead of Amnos in Revelation. Here is the thing--the same word (Arnion) was used for Jesus' instructions to Peter for feeding His sheep--meaning more then one lamb. The translators were not living in the last generation so they had no way of knowing or understanding the meaning of Revealtion. And, in all fareness, they too assumed that this lamb could only mean Jesus.

But here is the quetion--What would it mean IF this word meant the brothers and sisters of Jesus who were the 144,000 and the 5 wise virgins during the time of trouble who were killed in order to be a witness to those who come out of the time of trouble?

Evidence supporting this theory is found in Revelation 19:8. But the bottom line is that without Jesus (the blood of Jesus) being the Passover Lamb, the penalty for the sins of the righteous would be still pending. I think we all can agree with this.

[Richard Holbrook]

It's only confusing if you try to change the meaning, or try to second guess the translators and speculate as to what they really meant.

We're not to base our theology on "what would it mean IF?"

And what you say about Rev 19:8 goes against what you say on your website, where you say that: We are not saved by the blood of Christ or his death.

[John317]

Yes, this issue on 'lamb' is very confusing. John used a different word "Amnos" (Strongs 286) to present Jesus as the Passover Lamb--the perfect lamb for sacrifice. If you read what Strongs 286 says about the two words: Amnos and Arnion you will see that in later times, the translators mixed this up and used Arnion instead of Amnos in Revelation.

Quote and cite the reference for this.

Strongs Concordance says nothing about this.

What translators "mixed this up"?

Since we're talking about the Greek original, the translators have nothing to do with it.

Is there a single ancient Greek manuscript or printed Greek text of Revelation that substitutes Amnos for Arnion?

Quote:

Here is the thing--the same word (Arnion) was used for Jesus' instructions to Peter for feeding His sheep--meaning more then one lamb. The translators were not living in the last generation so they had no way of knowing or understanding the meaning of Revealtion.

Are you saying that you have to be living in the last generation to know the meaning of a Greek word used in the first century?

What reference or source are you using to define Arnion as "siblings of the lamb"?

Can you name any translation which translates Arnion as "siblings of the lamb"?

[Dr. Rich]

You did not read that we are not saved by the blood of Christ on the site you mentioned for that is not there! What was said is that the blood of Christ did not do away with any sin. It did pay the penalty for those who overcome sin.

After all, didn't Jesus say to drink the wine meaning to take His blood as the bond for the penalty for sin?

Please re-read the info from the site and you will get a better understanding so that you will not go off half cocked.

[Dr. Rich]

John wrote: "Since we're talking about the Greek original, the translators have nothing to do with it." John, we do NOT have any original manuscripts! They do not exist.

[John317]

John wrote: "Since we're talking about the Greek original, the translators have nothing to do with it." John, we do NOT have any original manuscripts! They do not exist.

We have no originals for any of the Bible, so that is not the point.

The point is what evidence are you using to say that "arnion" means "siblings of the lamb"?

Do you have any lexicon or dictionary that says this?

We do have many ancient Greek texts of the book of Revelation, and all of them read "arnion." For instance: Rev. 5: 11; 12: 11. All ancient Greek manuscripts of Rev. read exactly the same, arnion. I have over 22 printed Greek texts of Rev., and all of them show the same thing as far as the word arnion is concerned. These are based on manuscripts dated to 3rd, fourth, and fifth centuries, and no manuscripts read any differently.

One of the oldest, p47 dates to the third century AD.

p18 is third and fourth century AD.

p24 is a fourth century manuscript.

When you're dealing with the original language and the ancient manuscripts, the translators don't have anything to do with it, unless you're talking about ancient translations into the Latin or Syriac, etc. But of course, the translations don't change the ancient Greek manuscripts.

[Richard Holbrook]

You did not read that we are not saved by the blood of Christ on the site you mentioned for that is not there!

This is a direct quote from your website:

"So, if the Son sets you free, He does so by the word of truth, not by His blood, not by His death, not by His life, but by His word."

[Dr. Rich]

Exactly! thanks. The blood, death or His life does NOT set one free from sin. It is what one does with the blood, His death and His life--just as the first born male had to put the blood on the doorway--the blood did nothing, the death of the lamb did nothing, the lamb did nothing--what did do something was the obediance of what was SAID by God to do with the blood. But without the blood, then one couldn't do anything with it. Anyway, I hope this helps clear the air here.

[Richard Holbrook]

That takes us back to the orignal dispute: "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb Rev 12:11

Quote:

We have no originals for any of the Bible, so that is not the point.

The point is what evidence are you using to say that "arnion" means "siblings of the lamb"?

Do you have any lexicon or dictionary that says this?

We do have many ancient Greek texts of the book of Revelation, and all of the them read "arnion." For instance: Rev. 5: 11; 12: 11. All ancient Greek manuscripts of Rev. read exactly the same, arnion. I have over 22 printed Greek texts of Rev., and all of them show the same thing as far as the word arnion is concerned. These are based on manuscripts dated to the 4th and 5th century AD, and no manuscripts read any differently.

One of the oldest, p47 dates to the third century AD.

p18 is third and fourth century AD.

p24 is a fourth century manuscript.

When you're dealing with the original language and the ancient manuscripts, the translators don't have anything to do with it.

[John317]

John wrote: "Since we're talking about the Greek original, the translators have nothing to do with it." John, we do NOT have any original manuscripts! They do not exist.

Dr. Rich,

We have no "original, autograph copies" for any of the Bible, so that is not the point. But we do have ancient manuscripts in the original language of the book of Revelation dating back to the 3rd and 4th centuries.

What evidence are you using to say that arnion means "siblings of the lamb"?

All of the ancient Greek texts of the book of Revelation read "arnion." For instance, at Rev. 5: 11; 12: 11, all the ancient Greek manuscripts consistently show arnion.

I see no evidence that there was any change in those manuscripts, nor is there any evidence that arnion means "siblings of the lamb." All of the references I've examined-- Greek lexicons and dictionaries-- define arnion as "little lamb, small lamb, a lamb, sheep."

[Dr. Rich]

Yes John, because the word used there is arnion. But the word used for Jesus being the passover lamb was Amnos" (Strongs 286). You can find this in John 1:29.

John, your questions strike me kinda funny. Would not you agree that those found in Revelation 12:17 would be the brothers and sisters of Jesus--them haveing the same mother the Holy Spirit? If so, then why would it not fit for these little lambs or sheep as Jesus told Peter to feed, to be the saints found in Revelation 19:8? After all, they must have been sealed (born again) before the time of trouble for some good reason. Right? Haven't you ever asked yourself why the 144k are sealed before the multitude standing before the throne in Rev. 7:8-? And haven't you ever wondered about Revelation 11:1 and 2 where the inner court is judged first?

Then the big question--haven't you ever wondered why God established the process of Atonement the way He did? I mean, first the High Priest, second the priest tribe and then third the camp/nation of Israel? Why? Why mess around with this and not get it all done at once?

Satan wants us to believe that Jesus did this all at once that that it is now over. What Jesus did, was the first step--Him being the High Priest. John 17 states that Jesus became sanctified so that we may also become sanctified. Why would Jesus become sanctified if He was already perfect?

Why didn't Jesus say that He became sanctified so that we all are NOW also sanctified if we just believe that? You don't have to answer now, just let it soak in for a while and think about it. I would also suggest you pray about this too, and ask the Holy Spirit to help you out. Enjoy

Dr. Rich, (SDA)

[Musicman1228]

I see that I was misunderstood again, and it's my fault.

Arnion means "little lamb" or "lambkin", as opposed to Arnon or AREN which means "a male sheep (at least one year old)".

Rev.12:17 speaks of the siblings of Jesus Christ who is the Arnon.

When Jesus told Peter to feed his sheep the word used is Arnion. Jesus is not telling Peter to feed Him, but His Arnion/little lambs.

When the words "they" and "theirs" are used in connection with lamb by context the word lamb is from Arnion.

In Rev. 19:7-8 the word "lamb" is Arnion, the diminutive form or AREN which means as male lamb. Lamb here is also used in conjunction with a plural noun, in this case "saints", with certainly implies more that one.

This message from Jesus was given through John. I have full confidence that Jesus was able to tell John EXACTLY what He meant by every word He spoke. If we take Jesus at His word (even here) the information given is that a group of brothers and sisters/arnion of Jesus/arnon act for the world as Jesus Christ did for them. This is why their souls are under the altar in the 5th Seal, as I explained earlier.

The words Arnon and Arnion mean different things (as in singular and plural) and should be taken to mean exactly what they mean in the context in which the prophecy is written.

It is my experience that if we take the words of Jesus exactly as presented in the text as established by the eyewitnesses then we will know exactly what Jesus really meant to tell us. In many cases this will disagree with what is commonly held to be true. But why should we be surprised at this. After all, is that not the same thing Jesus did while He was here on earth?