Dancing

[Tom Wetmore]

Far be it from me to toss away my roots... (I am at least 4th generation Adventist and a direct descendant of the Mayflower Puritans...) But I also don't think it wise to blindly follow the traditions of my ancestors just because that's the way we have always done it. (That would seem more like ancestor worship...)

Please take my challenge seriously about searching for Biblical guidance on dance. Do some serious searching of Scripture on this. Some of it has been mentioned here already.

Here is what I have found. There are numerous references in Scripture to dancing. Most references are neutral or merely descriptive of the activity with no value judgment even implied. Many speak of dance in positive terms or at least recognition of an accepted or normal activity. And a handful even encourage dancing, including dancing as a form of worship. But none of the references specifically condemn dancing as wrong, sinful or unacceptable behavior. The closest to that is the reference of the children of Israel worshiping the golden calf in the wilderness. Their idol worship included dancing, but the dancing was not the object of the condemnation. It was the idol worship.

See what you can find, and then we can see if a reasonable line can be drawn. Anything beyond that risks being subjective human judgment.

Tom

[Key Guy]

It may be awhile before I get some serious research done.

In the meantime, can we agree that the type of music, the types of dance (such as the lamabda and other sexually overt dances) and the purpose of the dance are all open to question? I cannot believe that ALL dances are acceptable to God just because the Bible isn't explicit regarding the 3 above conditions.

If you sincerely feel that ALL dances are not sinful, then we have nothing to discuss. If you are convinced that there is a line between good and bad (righteous and sinful), then it's a matter of locating the line, and we know how crazy this will become.

[bonnie]

It may be awhile before I get some serious research done.

In the meantime, can we agree that the type of music, the types of dance (such as the lamabda and other sexually overt dances) and the purpose of the dance are all open to question? I cannot believe that ALL dances are acceptable to God just because the Bible isn't explicit regarding the 3 above conditions.

If you sincerely feel that ALL dances are not sinful, then we have nothing to discuss. If you are convinced that there is a line between good and bad (righteous and sinful), then it's a matter of locating the line, and we know how crazy this will become.

timewarp,

You certainly must know the line is wherever you want it to be

[Key Guy]

Quote:

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." Conformity to the world will never be the means of converting the world to Christ. Christians must be entirely consecrated to God, if the church is to be efficient in its influence for good upon unbelievers. The slightest diversion from Christ is so much influence, power and efficiency given to the enemy. The church was called into existence to counteract the influence of Satan; but as member after member of the church allows his ability and power to be diverted, one in one line and another in another line, connections are formed with the world, and the enemy of all righteousness triumphs. Almost imperceptibly the world's standard, the world's maxims and customs, are introduced into the church; and as these find room, the objectionable maxims and customs more boldly appear, and leaven the influence of the church; and Satan's devices are successful, just as he has designed they should be. In this way there is brought into the church a mixed company, a divided service. Many profess love to God, yet they are serving mammon and bowing at worldly shrines. The world is brought into the church , but not through repentance, contrition and conversion, but because church-members become wedded to the world; and this unholy union is the explanation of the weakness and inefficiency of the church. It is made manifest when the church-members follow the maxims of the world, that spiritual discernment is gone. Where this union is preserved, contention, criticism, faultfinding, strife, and decided hatred one of another comes in among those who should be servants of Christ."

Review and Herald, Aug 23, 1892

PS: I don't give a monkey's toenail how many generations of Adventists are behind a person.

PSx2: For those wanting only Bible quotes... start smoking. Nothing in the Bible states that smoking is bad either. The messages from Mrs. White stand the test of prophecy from God and carry page after page of guidance for our time.

[John317]

PS: I don't give a monkey's toenail how many generations of Adventists are behind a person.

In terms of salvation-- which is the only thing that really matters in the end-- coming from generations of SDAs is totally beside the point, and in fact often has a negative impact on a person's life. It can lead a person to think they are somehow special to God because of it, or it can lead people to take the truths of Adventism for granted and even to despise them.

Quote:

The messages from Mrs. White stand the test of prophecy from God and carry page after page of guidance for our time.

We're so blessed to have them!!

[John317]

Here is what I have found. There are numerous references in Scripture to dancing. Most references are neutral or merely descriptive of the activity with no value judgment even implied. Many speak of dance in positive terms or at least recognition of an accepted or normal activity. And a handful even encourage dancing, including dancing as a form of worship. But none of the references specifically condemn dancing as wrong, sinful or unacceptable behavior. The closest to that is the reference of the children of Israel worshiping the golden calf in the wilderness. Their idol worship included dancing, but the dancing was not the object of the condemnation. It was the idol worship.

Did you find anything in the writings of Ellen White that persuades you we should have dancing in our churches today?

Check out a couple of quotes:

Quote:

David's dancing in reverent joy before God has been cited by pleasure lovers in justification of the fashionable modern dance, but there is no ground for such an argument. In our day dancing is associated with folly and midnight reveling. Health and morals are sacrificed to pleasure. By the frequenters of the ballroom God is not an object of thought and reverence; prayer or the song of praise would be felt to be out of place in their assemblies. This test should be decisive. Amusements that have a tendency to weaken the love for sacred things and lessen our joy in the service of God are not to be sought by Christians. The music and dancing in joyful praise to God at the removal of the ark had not the faintest resemblance to the dissipation of modern dancing. The one tended to the remembrance of God and exalted His holy name. The other is a device of Satan to cause men to forget God and to dishonor Him. {AH 517.1}

Quote:

The things you have described . . . the Lord has shown me would take place just before the close of probation. Every uncouth thing will be demonstrated. There will be shouting, with drums, music, and dancing. The senses of rational beings will become so confused that they cannot be trusted to make right decisions. And this is called the moving of the Holy Spirit. {Mar 234.1}

[Outta Here]

I like this one a lot:

[Tom Wetmore]

...If you sincerely feel that ALL dances are not sinful, then we have nothing to discuss. If you are convinced that there is a line between good and bad (righteous and sinful), then it's a matter of locating the line, and we know how crazy this will become.

OK please pay attention here...

You said:

Quote:

I am simply not sure where to draw the line between what God would inspire and what Satan would inspire. That doesn't mean there isn't a line, though, and I think that line was crossed in this particular wedding.

To which I responded:

Quote:

I don't disagree that there is a line, but I think caution and fear born of our puritanical Adventist roots is not necessarily a very good guide.

OK. I never said there wasn't any line nor that ALL dance is good and OK. But the source that does guide the personal judgment about dance is what is critical to locating that line. Context and purpose of the dance would seem very significant and important. And maybe it is really only the context and purpose and not the dance that is determinative. And it need not be as crazy as you may think...

And finally remember the little song we sang as kids "The B-I-B-L-E, yes that's the book for me. I stand alone on the Word of God, the B-I-B-L-E!" Let's stick with that or it really will get crazy.

Tom

And PS, you can keep your monkey parts for yourself. My "pedigree" reference was not offered as a qualifying exchange, but as a tongue-in-cheek rejoinder to your offered notion of the importance of roots... I think you should have been able to see from my last quote above that I don't see those roots as terrible helpful in this discussion anyway.

[phkrause]

I wonder how different this song would have been had MJ sang and danced to it.

pk

[John317]

Ellen White On Dancing in relationship with Worship Services:

No encouragement should be given to this kind of worship [where there is shouting, with drums, music, and dancing] . The same kind of influence came in after the passing of the time in 1844. The same kind of representations were made. Men became excited, and were worked by a power thought to be the power of God. . . . {Mar 234.3}

Men and women, supposed to be guided by the Holy Spirit, held meetings in a state of nudity. They talked about holy flesh. They said they were beyond the power of temptation, and they sang, and shouted, and made all manner of noisy demonstrations. . . . Satan was moulding the work, and sensuality was the result. The cause of God was dishonored. Truth, sacred truth, was leveled in the dust by human agencies. . . . {Mar 234.4}

I bore my testimony, declaring that these fanatical movements, this din and noise, were inspired by the spirit of Satan, who was working miracles to deceive if possible the very elect. {Mar 234.5}

We need to be on our guard, to maintain a close connection with Christ, that we be not deceived by Satan's devices. The Lord desires to have in His service order and discipline, not excitement and confusion. {Mar 234.6}

[lazarus]

These are good quotes from Ellen White about dancing often quoted by those against dancing in church. Here are my thoughts.

1. Ellen white criticizes "pleasure lovers" for using David as an example. I would criticizes them too. everyone leading out in a worship service should be serious about worshipping God not seeking pleasure. The two young ladies who lead our "in His Steps" and "Angel hands" dance groups are not pleasure lovers. They are strong Christian women who want the young people they serve to use they creative energies to worship God.

2. Prayer and praise is much a part of what the dance groups in my church do. There is fun at practice but not pleasure seeking and folly. They practice Friday afternoons at church do not perform at midnight in some dingy ballroom with rowdy patrons. They praise God in front of parents, Grandparents, peers and guests.

3. Prayer and Praise is very much a part of the environment where they dance. We try to encourage our youth to move away from video games, mindless reality TV, etc. and be creative and expressive in their worship of God.

4. The dance that happens in most Christian churches is far from what EGW describes.

Quote:

The things you have described . . . the Lord has shown me would take place just before the close of probation. Every uncouth thing will be demonstrated. There will be shouting, with drums, music, and dancing. The senses of rational beings will become so confused that they cannot be trusted to make right decisions. And this is called the moving of the Holy Spirit. {Mar 234.1}

Inadvertently perhaps you removed the key part of that quote that would give us proper understanding.

"The things you have described .....as taking place in Indiana"

You will know that what was taking place Indiana was the work of the Holy Flesh movement.

A FANATICAL TEACHING TERMED "THE DOCTRINE OF HOLY FLESH" WAS STARTED IN 1900 IN INDIANA, LEADING THE CONFERENCE PRESIDENT AND VARIOUS WORKERS INTO SERIOUS ERROR. THIS THEORY ALLEGED THAT THOSE WHO FOLLOW THE SAVIOUR MUST HAVE THEIR FALLEN NATURES PERFECTED BY PASSING THROUGH A "GARDEN OF GETHSEMANE" EXPERIENCE, THUS ACQUIRING A STATE OF PHYSICAL SINLESSNESS AS AN ESSENTIAL PREPARATION FOR TRANSLATION. EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS REPORT THAT IN THEIR SERVICES THE FANATICS WORKED UP A HIGH PITCH OF EXCITEMENT BY USE OF MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS SUCH AS ORGANS, FLUTES, FIDDLES, TAMBOURINES, HORNS, AND EVEN A BIG BASS DRUM. THEY SOUGHT A PHYSICAL DEMONSTRATION AND SHOUTED AND PRAYED AND SANG UNTIL SOMEONE IN THE CONGREGATION WOULD FALL, PROSTRATE AND UNCONSCIOUS, FROM HIS SEAT. ONE OR TWO MEN, WALKING UP AND DOWN THE AISLE FOR THE PURPOSE, WOULD DRAG THE FALLEN PERSON UP ON THE ROSTRUM. THEN ABOUT A DOZEN INDIVIDUALS WOULD GATHER AROUND THE PROSTRATE BODY, SOME SINGING, SOME SHOUTING, AND SOME PRAYING, ALL AT THE SAME TIME. WHEN THE SUBJECT REVIVED, HE WAS COUNTED AMONG THOSE WHO HAD PASSED THROUGH THE GETHSEMANE EXPERIENCE, HAD OBTAINED HOLY FLESH, AND HAD TRANSLATION FAITH. THEREAFTER, IT WAS ASSERTED, HE COULD NOT SIN AND WOULD NEVER DIE. ELDERS S. N. HASKELL AND A. J. BREED, TWO OF OUR LEADING DENOMINATIONAL MINISTERS, WERE SENT TO THE CAMP MEETING HELD AT MUNCIE, INDIANA,

To suggest that EGW was condemning all drums and dancing is ignore the context of the quote.

[phkrause]

Interesting quotes John. I wonder what kind of dancing they had in her time. I'm thinking that the dancing had to be pretty tame compared to today. I wonder if there were satanic dancing that went on? And she's speaking out to that. Just some thoughts. I'm not a dancer myself. But always thought that there had to be some dancing that would be OK with God.

pk

[John317]

I wonder how different this song would have been had MJ sang and danced to it.

The enemy of God is subtle, not straight-forward. He introduces things in a way that makes them look completely harmless.

[Tom Wetmore]

OK, I agree that nude worship is just not right... no matter what kind of music and dance was involved. Not even sitting still and softly singing Fanny Crosby hymns could help save that holy flesh movement...

But thankfully, I am not aware of any Adventist churches that have even entertained the idea of bringing that practice back...

[Woody]

Quote:

The things you have described . . . the Lord has shown me would take place just before the close of probation. Every uncouth thing will be demonstrated. There will be shouting, with drums, music, and dancing. The senses of rational beings will become so confused that they cannot be trusted to make right decisions. And this is called the moving of the Holy Spirit. {Mar 234.1}

Sounds like the Remnant.

But actually .... dancing was way different a hundred years ago. To be percise ... EGW described them as dancing nude. I don't think we are proposing that John.

It's important to consider context when quoting Ellen White otherwise the wrong idea is given and people will think she looks quite silly. I am sure you don't want that kind of damage done to our prophet.

[Woody]

Drums and Dancing ..... Good

Taking EGW out of context .... Bad

[lazarus]

OK, I agree that nude worship is just not right...

Not exactly sure why but that made me LOL.

[John317]

The dancing in the Bible is not the same kind of dancing that most people think of when they talk of dancing in the churches. For instance, what kind of dancing is in Exodus 15: 20, 21? "All the women" were together and praising God for His deliverance. The men weren't dancing with them.

In the Old Testament, there's no trace found of public female dancing.

The Jewish dance was performed by the sexes separately

From Davis Bible Dictionary: "It must not be supposed that the 'religious dances' had any similarity to modern amusements. They were rather processions, in which all who took part marched in time with the hymns which they sung. The custom was very early laid aside, probably because it might have led to the adoption of such objectionable dances as were employed in honor of the pagan deities." p. 237.

See the following texts on dancing in the Bible--

Jeremiah 31: 4, 13

Job 21: 11

Matt. 11: 17

Luke 7: 32

1 Sam. 18: 6

Judges 21: 19-23

2 Sam. 6: 5, 14

Judges 11: 34

Ps. 30: 11; 68: 25; 150: 4.

[John317]

Quote:

The things you have described . . . the Lord has shown me would take place just before the close of probation. Every uncouth thing will be demonstrated. There will be shouting, with drums, music, and dancing. The senses of rational beings will become so confused that they cannot be trusted to make right decisions. And this is called the moving of the Holy Spirit. {Mar 234.1}

Inadvertently perhaps you removed the key part of that quote that would give us proper understanding.

"The things you have described .....as taking place in Indiana"

You will know that what was taking place Indiana was the work of the Holy Flesh movement.

I quoted directly from the book Maranatha, which omits the words "as taking place in Indiana."

I think it's important to notice that people were doing these things under what they thought was the Holy Spirit. People can do all sorts of things under the conviction that it's the Holy Spirit that's leading them to do it. That's one reason the church needs to move very thoughtfully and prayerfully on a subject such as dancing in church. It would be easy for it to become something that was never intended, at least by the people originally involved in the decision.

I am not saying that all "drums" are wrong or even that all "dancing" is wrong. It depends on what kind of "dancing" it is, for one thing.

You mentioned "dance groups" in your church. Could you describe a typical dance?

[John317]

To be percise ... EGW described them as dancing nude.

But notice that these were people who believed they were being led to do it by the Holy Spirit. So when people think they are being led by the Holy Spirit to dance in church, we need to remember that Satan can lead us to believe the Holy Spirit is influencing us when it is actually Satan.

Quote:

I don't think we are proposing that John.

I didn't mean to suggest that you were proposing dancing nude.

Quote:

It's important to consider context when quoting Ellen White otherwise the wrong idea is given

It isn't necessary for nudity to take place in order for her counsel in those quotes to be relevant in regard to dancing.

Please read again the following:

Quote:

No encouragement should be given to this kind of worship [where there is shouting, with drums, music, and dancing] . The same kind of influence came in after the passing of the time in 1844. The same kind of representations were made. Men became excited, and were worked by a power thought to be the power of God. . . . {Mar 234.3}

Men and women, supposed to be guided by the Holy Spirit, held meetings in a state of nudity. They talked about holy flesh. They said they were beyond the power of temptation, and they sang, and shouted, and made all manner of noisy demonstrations. . . . Satan was moulding the work, and sensuality was the result. The cause of God was dishonored. Truth, sacred truth, was leveled in the dust by human agencies. . . . {Mar 234.4}

Is it possible that we too may think that the dancing is harmless and that we are beyond allowing these things to tempt us to sin?

Quote:

I bore my testimony, declaring that these fanatical movements, this din and noise, were inspired by the spirit of Satan, who was working miracles to deceive if possible the very elect. {Mar 234.5}

We need to be on our guard, to maintain a close connection with Christ, that we be not deceived by Satan's devices. The Lord desires to have in His service order and discipline, not excitement and confusion. {Mar 234.6}

My point is that if we are not very careful, Satan will introduce things into our church services that will result in the very things that Ellen White warned against. These things won't be immediately evident, but Satan will introduce them slowly and they will be made to look absolutely harmless.

Again, I'm not saying that all "dancing" of any kind is wrong in church. I'm really saying that we need to be very careful about the kind that we allow and make sure that we are not letting down the barriers that will empower Satan to corrupt our church services. You can be sure that is his game-plan.

[Parade Orange]

this is not a holy dance -someone said! it dont matter who- not thinking of a person just the thought!!

This is not a H O L Y D A N C E ???

whats a holy dance?

Only God can sanctify a day or a dance if HE so chooses. I dont think anyone here can claim they know a HOLY DANCE when they see one. They can say that God spoke to them in it or it moved them or they saw rainbow flag glitter burst out of the organ pipes like a cannon but it dont mean it was HOLY.

I dont know the spititual condition of anyone who danced in that video. and im certain u here dont either( i hate stating the obvious but i notice idiots are idiots) . But if they are one of HIS, Im assured all of u idiots here wouldnt know it till u actually meet the slob and try to out talk each other on who is the holiest!

[Woody]

TU TU TU

[there buster]

Quote:

This test should be decisive. Amusements that have a tendency to weaken the love for sacred things and lessen our joy in the service of God are not to be sought by Christians. The music and dancing in joyful praise to God at the removal of the ark had not the faintest resemblance to the dissipation of modern dancing. The one tended to the remembrance of God and exalted His holy name. The other is a device of Satan to cause men to forget God and to dishonor Him. {AH 517.1}

The words in bold describes the worship dance that I have seen.

So apparently EGW would have approved.

[Key Guy]

Quote:

I bore my testimony, declaring that these fanatical movements, this din and noise, were inspired by the spirit of Satan, who was working miracles to deceive if possible the very elect. {Mar 234.5}

I forgot that it doesn't apply here. We have the 'elect' of the very elect and are therefore above any deceptions that Satan has in store. No one on this forum needs to be careful. (this is a joke... for those that don't get my humor)

Now, consider this: What would happen if we had NO dancing and NO drums in a worship service? Would the worshipers be cheated in their attempts to glorify God and be blessed?

If they would be cheated, then we all need to start dancing and break out the drums as the worship service should require those activities.

If not doing the activities wouldn't make a difference in the worship experience of the Christian, then we can call the activities an elective and be EXTREMELY careful about the motive and purpose of them.

Lastly, what about those who are offended by incorporating dancing and drums in the worship service? What do we do with them? Are the dancers and drum players offended or lose a worship experience if we have prayer, singing of hymns or collection of offerings? I suggest they are not offensive to anyone and are integral parts of worship. I can't personally place dancing and drumming in the same level.

[lazarus]

You mentioned "dance groups" in your church. Could you describe a typical dance?

It's kinda hard to describe. If you have specific questions about what they wear, the music etc. but it's hard to describe.

I would say one group is more sign language to music rather than dance.