The Truth about EVERYTHING

[Richard Holbrook]

Rev. 12:1---This woman was in heaven and the church was NEVER in heaven.

Rev. 12:5---This woman (not Mary because she wasn't in heaven either) gives birth to Jesus.

Rev. 12:17---This Woman gives birth to the saints (144k) who keep the commandments and the words (testimony) of Jesus. These people are born of the Holy Spirit.

John 3:6---This Woman who gives birth is called the Spirit.

Please note that ALL of the words for "Spirit" in the Old Testament are feminine nouns.

Gen. 1:26---God said let us make man (kind) in OUR image—male and female.

Now prove me wrong with the words of Jesus and the Old Testament. Please!

Dr. Rich,

John was in vision when he saw this. Are you saying the church, or God's people will never be in heaven? Or have no connection to heaven while here on this earth? He then goes on to describe events that took place on earth.

So if what you believe is true, about the woman in Rev. being the HS, then the Holy Spirit had to run from satan into the wilderness to keep from being killed. Rev 12:6, 14-16

The Holy Spirit does not need to flee from satan. Satan can no more hurt the Holy Spirit than he could do harm to God the Father.

[Dr. Rich]

But it did happen--the Holy Spirit fled to the wilderness after the catholic church was set up and she remained there until 1843 when the host for the Kingdom of Heaven was set up--just as found in prophecy.

We now call this time period the 'dark ages'. Why, because there was no light (truth) in the world during this time.

Isn't this correct?

[John317]

Don't you believe that the Holy Spirit was working during those times, such as in the Protestant Reformation, on people like Luther, Tyndale, Knox, etc.?

[Richard Holbrook]

No

The Holy Spirit did not hide. God's true people, "the church" had to stay hidden in the dark ages or be killed. The church couldn't carry the light to the world, but the Holy Spirit was still working.

The HS has no need to hide.

[Richard Holbrook]

what John said too.

Hey John317

[John317]

[Richard Holbrook]

I'm up late cooking pinto beans. They just got done.

[Dr. Rich]

Of course not! Jesus' prophecy about the rock cut out w/o hands hadn't happened yet.

The two things that tie all Christians together are faith and the belief that the whole bible is the word or God. One would think that would bring unity--but it did just the opposite.

Here is the thing--who was it that said all we need is faith? Who was it that claimed his gospel is the only true gospel? Who was it that wrote all scripture was inspired by God? Hmmmm?

So tell me John and RH, what truth did the Holy Spirit give during the dark ages--and to who? Mohammad? Nostradamas? Luther? the Pope? Buddha? Calvin?

[Richard Holbrook]

But it did happen--the Holy Spirit fled to the wilderness after the catholic church was set up and she remained there until 1843

This is even worse than I thought. You're saying the Holy Spirit was afraid of the Catholic church!

[Richard Holbrook]

Of course not! Jesus' prophecy about the rock cut out w/o hands hadn't happened yet.

What does that have to do with the Holy Spirit cowering in the wilderness?

[Richard Holbrook]

I guess Dr. Rich has no answer....

[oldsailor29]

male and female gods are pagan in origin. Gen. 1 is a polemic against creation stories which make gods of the sun and moon. That pagan concept has the sun as male, the moon as female, and the stars as offspring. Gen 1 makes it clear that the one infinite God created the sun, moon, and the stars. The one infinite God who stands outside of time and space is both male and female, and both singular and plural. God is one and many, all at the same time. God's will is His word. God is the only creator, and is not limited to reproduction like male and female of any species.

More and more, recently, Job 38 & 39 are becoming favorites of mine. Whenever we start to think we understand something about God, we should review those chapters, and know there is nothing about God we can fully understand.

[Dr. Rich]

RH--I find your question(s) to be very childish. Please use some common sense here (if there is such a thing anymore?) We disagree because of the large gap in time taken to intensely study the bible—and I tend not to pull any punches. Yes, you can call this abrasive if you want—but that is what I do in court too.

Our differences in the understanding of God the Father, the Holy Spirit and the son of man and the Son of God can’t be melded in this forum/thread. Here is why—

I believe, because of what Jesus said and what His eyewitness’ state, that the Holy Spirit will NOT dwell in anyone with sin. (A house divided will not stand) (As found in 1st John 3:6-9 and 5:18) Most people who call themselves Christian believe that a person is both sinful and righteous because of what the writer of Romans wrote. He said the flesh is evil and the spirit is good. Well, I can’t see where Jesus ever said anything like this so I tend to take His side on this issue.

I suppose it’s kinda like this—what came first, the chicken or the egg? Does one first have to be sinless to receive the Holy Spirit—or does the Holy Spirit tag along with the evil spirit(s)? (Like you see in cartoons) Just where was the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament time? Was it hiding somewhere?

And exactly what IS the Holy Spirit? Is it like in ‘Star Wars’—the ‘force’ be with you? And how come Peter and the rest of Jesus’ disciples had to wait for the Holy Spirit IF Jesus had already given IT to them?

And why are people saying they are waiting for and praying for an ‘outpouring of the Holy Spirit’ IF the Holy Spirit has already been given to ‘us’? Could they be setting themselves up for a great deception by evil spirits? I think so.

Take Saul/Paul for instance—didn’t he think he was doing the will of God by rounded up and killing innocent people? Don’t you think he had been praying daily to his god? Do you really believe the Holy Spirit was dwelling with Saul at this time?

You see, Jesus had told the Jews as found in Matthew 21 that the KOH would be taken away from them. What did this really mean? He also said a time would come that the KOH would be given to another group of people set up by God. So tell me, what happened during all of this time? Where was the Holy Spirit? If the KOH had been taken away, then would not the Holy Spirit be taken away too?

Can you show me where the Holy Spirit was when the Catholic Church was formed? Was not this an evil entity? If so, then how could the Holy Spirit be involved with formation of it—AND the formation of the New Testament? (Now I know what you are saying—because I too have read the words of the woman SDA members call their prophet—and the words of the prophet for the Mormons I might add.)

The answer is that the Holy Spirit can only dwell in people who are righteous—who have repented and living a sinless life. And sin is not obeying what God commanded. Do you agree with this? If so, then why did the writer of Romans take so many words and pages in his attempt to show people what his idea of was sin was? It is no wonder people are confused!

Personally, I think Jesus said that we should be like little children for a good reason. Righteousness is a simple thing—that is right doing—doing what God commanded. Period! Do this and then the Holy Spirit can lead you to truth. After all, didn’t Jesus say to seek first the KOH and His righteousness—and then all else will follow?

This business of not being able to be sinless is nonsense! As too, the business of believing and saying that one can’t seek righteousness without the help of the Holy Spirit! When people tell me that they pray and hear God and are led by Jesus, it makes me want to gag! Have not they ever read Gen. 4:6 and 7? I also want to gag every time I hear someone sing “Amazing Grace”! Come on people, why can’t you put the blame where it belongs? It is US that have the choice to make—first. Then, and only then can the Holy Spirit come and dwell with you. Enjoy!

[John317]

You seem clearly to be saying that you don't have the Holy Spirit living in you.

Please compare John 1: 12, 13; 3: 3-8; John 14: 15-18; Romans 8: 9-11, 13-16.

[Dr. Rich]

Am I 'born again'---the answer is clearly NO! I have not yet found anyone else that has either.

[Gail]

Am I 'born again'---the answer is clearly NO! I have not yet found anyone else that has either.

Wow... Your understanding of what constitutes being born again must be different from mine!

[Dr. Rich]

Yes Gail, I formed my opinion from 1st John 3:6-9 and 5:18. Do you see anything wrong with this?

[Gail]

Yes Gail, I formed my opinion from 1st John 3:6-9 and 5:18. Do you see anything wrong with this?

First of all I'm not going to judge who's at what stage of their Christian walk.

Falling into sin is not the same as wilfully living that lifestyle. A born-again Christian will fall into sin, something that s/he doesn't want to do and regrets later and repents and returns to Christ.

I would not want to deny the changes that the Lord has brought about in people. I don't want to deny Him at all. Instead of focusing on people's faults and failings, I would rather want to restore an erring one. This is not the same as a person who doesn't care at all about his/her spiritual condition.

By beholding we become changed. If you are looking only at people's failings, what will happen to your attitude, and your love for others?

Just some thoughts.

[Dr. Rich]

Neil--the Greek has no gender. The word "he" could be for either gender. The editors therefore got it wrong because they didn't know the truth. I don't blame them--but words do have special meanings. Do you know the difference between "Lawful" and "Legal"? One is the truth and the other is fictional law.

[John317]

Dr. Rich, I believe the evidence shows that you have a misunderstanding of what those verses are saying. You evidently believe that 1 John 5: 18 is saying that people who are "born of God" never commit sin. But as many good translations reveal, the text is actually saying that those who are born of God do not "habitually commit sin," "live in sin," "practice sin," etc. The Greek verb is present tense, which means that it's talking about a continual committing of sin. It's referring to the deliberate, willful practice of sin. (As a lawyer, you realize that not all crimes or acts are "willful.") The same may be said of 1 John 3: 1-10. Compare the Amplified Version, which gives the sense of the Greek language here.

It is not saying that humans who are born from above never sin or never make a mistake.

Study 1 John 1: 5 to 6: 6 closely.

[Dr. Rich]

Gail wrote "Falling into sin is not the same as wilfully living that lifestyle. A born-again Christian will fall into sin, something that s/he doesn't want to do and regrets later and repents and returns to Christ."

Is this your own idea--or one that can be backed up by evidence from the words of Jesus?

When Jesus told the women to "go and sin no more" did He mean it? Or was He just blowing smoke?

[John317]

Neil--the Greek has no gender. The word "he" could be for either gender.

The Greek always has "gender." Greek nouns are either "feminine," "masculine," or "neuter." The Greek word, pneuma[spirit], is a neuter noun, which does not indicate either sex. The words "child" and "infant" in Greek are also neuter.

As for Acts 11: 15, the King James Version gives the literal reading. The Greek lacks the pronoun, "he." It was added by the translator in some translations.

Notice, however, that in some parts of the book of John, Greek grammar required the use of "it" whereas Jesus uses the masculine pronoun, "he," to refer to the Holy Spirit. Never does the Bible refer to the Holy Spirit as "her." It is always "it" or "he." Again, the use of "it" does not indicate that the Holy Spirit is not a person, because evil spirits are also described as "it."

[Richard Holbrook]

DR, you would have gotten by with that one if someone didn't know about greek. I wonder how much you get by with on others. Somebody has gotten over on you, for you to believe this stuff.

[John317]

When Jesus told the women to "go and sin no more" did He mean it? Or was He just blowing smoke?

He was not blowing smoke. We agree on that.

But neither was Jesus saying that this woman would be violating Christ's command if she ever once made a mistake or committed a single sin from that point on in her life.

Jesus' words actually are, "Go and do not keep on sinning."

Does that mean we MUST sin? No, not at all. Believers in Christ can't be forced to sin. So we don't have to sin. The Holy Spirit provides us with power to resist every temptation to sin. It means, then, that we put 1 John 1: 5 to 2: 6 into practice. That is to say, IF we sin, we have an Advocate (attorney) with the Father. And He Himself is the propitiation [atoning sacrifice] for our sins, and He empowers us to live for God.

[Richard Holbrook]

The answer is that the Holy Spirit can only dwell in people who are righteous—who have repented and living a sinless life.