If all you can do is argue...

[Neil D]

What's that saying, "Great minds think alike". hee hee hee hee

pk

As my step father used to say regarding this, "Great minds run along the same gutters.".....Personally, I thought this quite provokative.....

[Woody]

Does that mean, Redwood, that you believe it's OK for men to beat their wives, and that no one has any right to take action against them for doing it,including the victim? It certainly sounds like that is what you are advocating.

My point is that the Bible does not have provisions for taking action against it. The LAW does. By that I mean state and federal laws. Not the church. Thanks for the chance to clarify.

[Woody]

I am so glad that Stan started this thread about arguing. There seems to be so many things for us to argue about and this has been a good catalyst.

[Stan]

remember it said that is ALL you can do is...

[Woody]

Regarding arguing these are food for thought:

Quote:

Erroneous theories, with no authority from the word of God, will come in on the right hand and on the left, and to weaklings these theories will appear as truth which makes wise. But they are as nothingness. And yet many church members have become so well satisfied with cheap food that they have a dyspeptic religion. Why will men and women belittle their experience by gathering up idle tales and presenting them as matters worthy of attention? The people of God have no time to dwell on the indefinite, frivolous questions which have no bearing on God's requirements.--Preach the Word, p. 10. (1901.) {CW 48.2}

Quote:

Points Unnecessary for Faith.--There are many questions treated upon that are not necessary for the perfection of the faith. We have no time for their study. Many things are above finite comprehension. Truths are to be received not within the reach of our reason, and not for us to explain. Revelation presents them to us to be implicitly received as the words of an infinite God. While every ingenious inquirer is to search out the truth as it is in Jesus, there are things not yet simplified, statements that human minds cannot grasp and reason out, without being liable to make human calculation and explanations, which will not prove a savor of life unto life. {CW 48.3}

Quote:

"Brother ----- is joined to the church, but not to the Lord. He has a dyspeptic religion. He is not right with God; he is filled with self. He has lost much by uniting with individuals who have not the spirit of Christ. He is lacking in almost every grace. He is useless to himself, and a great stumbling block to the church." 5T117

Quote:

Dyspeptics have a dyspeptic religion. Those who overload the stomach, and then, without taking any special exercise, come to meeting, will find that they are unable to keep awake. Because of the condition of the stomach, many place themselves on the negative side when they should be on the affirmative. Meetings are often hindered by resolutions which, occasioned by dyspepsia, should never have seen the light of day. {2SAT 153.1}

[Bravus]

So if we're arguing too much, we should eat better and exercise more? Makes sense. Getting out in the sun and air and drinking lots of fresh water would complete the set...

[D. Allan]

And staying away from people who like to argue.

dab

[Bravus]

That too. It takes two to tango...

Actually, come to that, tango is probably a *lot* healthier than arguing!

Oops, that might be yet another can of worms... wish someone would stop leaving so many lying around.

[Guest]

I won't argue that.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Originally Posted By: GreatLakesGramma

Does that mean, Redwood, that you believe it's OK for men to beat their wives, and that no one has any right to take action against them for doing it,including the victim? It certainly sounds like that is what you are advocating.

My point is that the Bible does not have provisions for taking action against it. The LAW does. By that I mean state and federal laws. Not the church. Thanks for the chance to clarify.

And I said nothing about the church taking action against them. My post had only to do with the attitude of those church leaders who base their position on such an issue on their culture instead of the Bible.

[olger]

So if we're arguing too much, we should eat better and exercise more? Makes sense. Getting out in the sun and air and drinking lots of fresh water would complete the set...

FIBER !

g

[Bravus]

I had an idea for a (rock) band name the other day: 'Mental Bran'.

[Dr. Shane]

I love bran, oatmeal, cornbread, whole grain pancakes, bran muffins, bagels, avocados, bananas, brown rice, and beans, beans, and more beans. Lot of fiber and lots of cool water with a midge bit of lime.

[Dr. Rich]

Shane, so do I. But I love all of God's vegetarian creatures too. They look best right next to the mashed potatoes. This might be the reason my grandkids bought me a t shirt with big letters on it--P E T A. It stands for "people eating tasty animals.".

[Neil D]

Oops, that might be yet another can of worms... wish someone would stop leaving so many lying around.

Sounds to me that if there is a couple of cans of worms lying around, we need to go fishing....God a fishing pole?

[LifeHiscost]

My point is that the Bible does not have provisions for taking action against it. The LAW does. By that I mean state and federal laws. Not the church. Thanks for the chance to clarify.

O' contrare, or something like that.

"“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector."Matt 18:15-17 NKJV

And as I understand it Paul gives permission, in the name of the Lord, to separate from an unbelieving spouse, if not actually divorcing.

Regards!

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

My point is that the Bible does not have provisions for taking action against it. The LAW does. By that I mean state and federal laws. Not the church. Thanks for the chance to clarify.

O' contrare, or something like that.

"“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector."Matt 18:15-17 NKJV

And as I understand it Paul gives permission, in the name of the Lord, to separate from an unbelieving spouse, if not actually divorcing.

Regards!

Agreed.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: CyberGuy

A case in point. In 2005 there was a motion on the floor of the GC to allow divorse in cases of spousal abuse and I mean physical abuse but where there was no adultery. This motion was fought by people from africa and South america where a husband can culturally beat his wife and it is accepted as ok.

I guess what that tells us is that church decisions are not being based on the Bible.

I guess this is where I would have to disagree. The Bible allows for separation but not divorce.

[Bravus]

Seems to me like a bit of a moot point. If they're separated, the offending spouse is very likely to find a new partner. Since they're not divorced, as soon as he sleeps with her, he has committed adultery and the battered wife now has Biblical grounds for divorce... voila!

Of course, again, it would be great if we put as much energy into supporting marriage as we do into defining the minutiae of divorce...

[Woody]

The Biblical point is that they remain separated and faithful. Yes, when one breaks the marriage vows there is provision for divorce. But there is not excuse for doing so.

There are no provisions for running ahead of God just because you think someone will be unfaithful.

[lazarus]

A certain weary resignation, though: when people major in minors, and when different people in different parts of the world choose different minors to major in, conflict is inevitable... and sometimes a divorce for the church as a whole can at least stop the fighting, not unlike a divorce for a couple. But it's never a good outcome in either case. A little more affection, compassion, thoughtfulness and understanding is a much, much better prescription.

I would be exited to see some real "argy-bargy" at the next GC session. I'm tired of the tired discussions about who should chair the board etc. Although these discussions are necessary what about the bigger picture?

For example, Let's stop the foolishness about women's ordination and admit that the SDA church ordains women already but it's just called commissioning. When those who are against womens ordination realize that its already a done deal then they may be able to move on. Seems like there's a low level debilitating conflict going on. I think its time for all out war so a genuine peace arise out of the rubble.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Originally Posted By: GreatLakesGramma

I guess what that tells us is that church decisions are not being based on the Bible.

I guess this is where I would have to disagree. The Bible allows for separation but not divorce.

That isn't the point I was making either. The fact that the pros and cons on the issues were based on their culture, NOT on serious, prayerful Bible study until they were led to consensus by the Holy Spirit - like in the beginning of our church.

Besides, your viewpoint works fine here, but what makes you think every country in the world has provisions for legal separation other than divorce? I'm sure there are countries where either you're married or not, and if in those same countries spousal abuse is accepted, there would be nothing stopping the husband from hunting down his wife, beating her to a pulp for running away, and dragging her back home to continue to endure regular abuse. If a woman's only means of safety against domestic violence is divorce, she should not be punished by the church for it.

[Dr. Rich]

Catherine, I couldn't agree with you more! This mistaken notion that women are second class humans has to stop! It should stop with the GC putting down their feet regardless of culture! God divorced Israel because of adultry (spiritual adultry) so when someone in marriage breaks the vow (covenant) in any way, there is either repentence and foregivness or divorce! Period!

There should be no fence sitting (discrimination) on WHO becomes a minister if they are qualified and teach the real truth--man or woman! And NO--the man is NOT the head of the household--both must share equally! Why--because Christ is NOT the head of the Church! Jesus NEVER said any such thing!

[Guest]

Since His ascension Christ has carried forward His work on the earth by chosen ambassadors, through whom He speaks to the children of men and ministers to their needs. The great Head of the church superintends His work through the instrumentality of men ordained by God to act as His representatives. {AA 360.1}

[Guest]

Christ is the head of the church and the Saviour of the mystical body. Let every husband who claims to love God carefully study the requirements of God in his position. Christ's authority is exercised in wisdom, in all kindness and gentleness; so let the husband exercise his power and imitate the great Head of the church. {AH 215.1}