When are the saved like Jesus? etc.

[skyblue888]

What do you think of this statement Richard?

"Do you imagine that you can leave off sin a little at a time? Oh, leave the accurse thing at once! Hate the things that Christ hates, love the things that Christ loves." 1 S.M.327, bottom of page.

"When we are clothed with the righteousness of Christ, we shall have no relish for sin; for Christ will be working with us. We may make mistakes, but we will hate the sin that caused the sufferings of the Son of God." 1 S.M.360.

yur thoughts,

sky

[Guest]

That's right, but he dosn't show us everything at once. I'm talking here about the little things that we do not think of as sin, not the obvious things we know are sin.

[skyblue888]

Okay. I read something very interesting about this from E.G. Waggoner. I will try to find it.

sky

[Musicman1228]

Yes, the process of removing sin is sanctification. It requires time and effort. But what does God require of His Kingdom for them to be righteous? Just what He said a Sinai, keep my Commandments. The Covenant is what defines righteousness for the Kingdom of Heaven. If you want to be in the Kingdom you must keep His Commandments. When you do that all other unrighteousness will be done away with in time.

Did God make a mistake in giving the 10 Commandments to Israel? Was it truly impossible for them to keep the Covenant? If you answer 'yes' to either of these questions then you are saying that God cannot be God, because He made a mistake and asked people to do something He knew they would not be able to do. God cannot do either.

Is obeying the Covenant impossible?

[Twilight]

Yes, the process of removing sin is sanctification. It requires time and effort. But what does God require of His Kingdom for them to be righteous? Just what He said a Sinai, keep my Commandments. The Covenant is what defines righteousness for the Kingdom of Heaven. If you want to be in the Kingdom you must keep His Commandments. When you do that all other unrighteousness will be done away with in time.

Did God make a mistake in giving the 10 Commandments to Israel? Was it truly impossible for them to keep the Covenant? If you answer 'yes' to either of these questions then you are saying that God cannot be God, because He made a mistake and asked people to do something He knew they would not be able to do. God cannot do either.

Is obeying the Covenant impossible?

Yes it is impossible...

Because the covenant was entered into incorrectly by the Isrealites.

Their answer was:

"Everything you have said we will do..."

But in the new covenant, God does not allow this error to slip in and states that He will "cause us" to keep the commendments.

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

So we are not under the Sinai covenant unless we state:

"All the things you have said we will do..."

That is being under the "law".

But we are under the covenant of Grace with states that God will "cause us to walk in His statutes,".

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Yes, the process of removing sin is sanctification. It requires time and effort. But what does God require of His Kingdom for them to be righteous? Just what He said a Sinai, keep my Commandments. The Covenant is what defines righteousness for the Kingdom of Heaven. If you want to be in the Kingdom you must keep His Commandments. When you do that all other unrighteousness will be done away with in time.

Did God make a mistake in giving the 10 Commandments to Israel? Was it truly impossible for them to keep the Covenant? If you answer 'yes' to either of these questions then you are saying that God cannot be God, because He made a mistake and asked people to do something He knew they would not be able to do. God cannot do either.

Is obeying the Covenant impossible?

Yes it is impossible...

Because the covenant was entered into incorrectly by the Isrealites.

Their answer was:

"Everything you have said we will do..."

But in the new covenant, God does not allow this error to slip in and states that He will "cause us" to keep the commendments.

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

So we are not under the Sinai covenant unless we state:

"All the things you have said we will do..."

That is being under the "law".

But we are under the covenant of Grace with states that God will "cause us to walk in His statutes,".

Mark

The Isrealites error was in thinking they "could" keep the Law.

When they could not.

Only God could keep it in them for them, as they surrendered to Him and followed His leading.

But they were too spiritually blind to see it.

They were probably trying to "appease" an angry God in their own minds, so just agreeing to everything, in a "pagan" form of fearful acceptance of the decree.

Rather than questioning: "How can we do this?"...

Mark :-)

[Musicman1228]

MM asked, "Is obeying the Covenant impossible?"

Mark said:

Yes it is impossible...

Because the covenant was entered into incorrectly by the Isrealites.

Is the following proposition valid?

Proposition:

Did God know how (the way in which) the Israelites would respond to His command to keep His Covenant?

If God did not know how they would respond then He isn't God. God is never surprised by the future.

If God did know Israel's response then He must have known that they would fail because He knows the future.

God knows the future and knew before hand that Israel would fail to keep the Covenant, therefore by offering the Covenant to Israel at Sinai that He knew they could not perform God caused Israel to sin.

If God caused Israel to sin then Satan was correct in in his accusation that God originally causing sin by setting requirements to the Law that NO ONE could follow.

Under these conditions do you believe God capable of requiring performance to a standard that He knows cannot be met?

[skyblue888]

Of course the Lord knew they would enter in a covenant of condemnation and death at Sinai by saying, "All that the Lord has said, we will do." God simply allowed them to enter into that covenant until they would feel their utterly helpless condition.

Did not God know that Lucifer would rebel? Of course He knew and yet He allowed his course of sin and rebellion to take place for the same reason in the hope that Lucifer would see his mistake and return.

sky

[Twilight]

Of course the Lord knew they would enter in a covenant of condemnation and death at Sinai by saying, "All that the Lord has said, we will do." God simply allowed them to enter into that covenant until they would feel their utterly helplessness.

Did not God know that Lucifer would rebel? Of course He knew and yet He allowed his course of sin and rebellion to take place for the same reason in the hope that Lucifer would see his mistake and return.

sky

Amen...

Musicman,

It was the same with Jesus and Judas.

Did God know that Judas would betray His Son?

Yes, did that prevent Judas from being accepted as a disciple?

No...

Even in their poor choice, the Isrealites still had the opportunity to learn their need of Grace through the sanctuary system.

But the bible teaches that their "promise" was the reason the covenant broke down.

What you are presenting here is the same "promise".

"Lord, I can do this in my own strength, I do not need Grace". Please correct me if I am wrong...

Mark

[skyblue888]

In the "Old Covenant" spirit, the people make promises, they promise that they will keep the commandments. They are sincere in making these promises but sincerity is not enough. They are like the man of Romans 7 who wills to do good but how to perform it he finds not.

In the "New Covenant" spirit, the people make no promises to keep the commandments. They receive the commandments as so many promises. They accept the ten precepts as the voice of God speaking to the soul in promise as they fall at the feet of Jesus and cling to His merits. They hear the voice of Him whose word can renew the soul unto everlasting life.

In the New Covenant, every command is a promise, a most positive promise of its own fulfilment.

In the New Covenant, the people believe that what God has commanded He is able to accomplish. "My word shall accomplish that which I please." Isaiah 55:11.

Thus by receiving the Word, not written merely but spoken, the Lord works in them both to will and to do His good pleasure. See Phil.2:13; 1 Thess.2:13.

sky

[Guest]

.

Did not God know that Lucifer would rebel? Of course He knew and yet He allowed his course of sin and rebellion to take place for the same reason in the hope that Lucifer would see his mistake and return.

sky

If God knew that Lucifer would rebel, then he also knew he would not see his mistake and return. Therefore it would not make sense to for God to hope for anything. He was not hoping against what he already knew. He did it so that the other angels (and all the unfallen worlds) could see what sin really was and that Satan's claims were false. otherwise they would have served him out of fear rather than love.

But with Israel, were there not some who formed a right relationship with God, and were able to do what God said?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

.

Did not God know that Lucifer would rebel? Of course He knew and yet He allowed his course of sin and rebellion to take place for the same reason in the hope that Lucifer would see his mistake and return.

sky

If God knew that Lucifer would rebel, then he also knew he would not see his mistake and return. Therefore it would not make sense to for God to hope for anything. He was not hoping against what he already knew. He did it so that the other angels (and all the unfallen worlds) could see what sin really was and that Satan's claims were false. otherwise they would have served him out of fear rather than love.

But with Israel, were there not some who formed a right relationship with God, and were able to do what God said?

Of course Richard, I agree. God knows everything. He allowed the rebellion to take its course so that the loyal angels and all the inhabited worlds could see for themselves where all this was going.

And yes of course there were some who did form a right relationship with God as Abraham did but only a minority.

sky

[Twilight]

In the "Old Covenant" spirit, the people make promises, they promise that they will keep the commandments. They are sincere in making these promises but sincerity is not enough. They are like the man of Romans 7 who wills to do good but how to perform it he finds not.

In the "New Covenant" spirit, the people make no promises to keep the commandments. They receive the commandments as so many promises. They accept the ten precepts as the voice of God speaking to the soul in promise as they fall at the feet of Jesus and cling to His merits. They hear the voice of Him whose word can renew the soul unto everlasting life.

In the New Covenant, every command is a promise, a most positive promise of its own fulfilment.

In the New Covenant, the people believe that what God has commanded He is able to accomplish. "My word shall accomplish that which I please." Isaiah 55:11.

Thus by receiving the Word, not written merely but spoken, the Lord works in them both to will and to do His good pleasure. See Phil.2:13; 1 Thess.2:13.

sky

Amen...

"I will cause you to walk in my statutes..." Paraphrase, new covenant.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

.

Did not God know that Lucifer would rebel? Of course He knew and yet He allowed his course of sin and rebellion to take place for the same reason in the hope that Lucifer would see his mistake and return.

sky

If God knew that Lucifer would rebel, then he also knew he would not see his mistake and return. Therefore it would not make sense to for God to hope for anything. He was not hoping against what he already knew. He did it so that the other angels (and all the unfallen worlds) could see what sin really was and that Satan's claims were false. otherwise they would have served him out of fear rather than love.

But with Israel, were there not some who formed a right relationship with God, and were able to do what God said?

"I have seven thousand who have not bowed their knee to Baal..." paraphrase.

[Woody]

Quote:

Is there an end to this process of sanctification, and if so what is it?

Exactly. There is no end. The end ... is when you die. It's the work of a lifetime. People really get the issue of being sanctified and sanctification confused and mixed up.

[Twilight]

Quote:

Is there an end to this process of sanctification, and if so what is it?

Exactly. There is no end. The end ... is when you die. It's the work of a lifetime. People really get the issue of being sanctified and sanctification confused and mixed up.

First we have to define what we mean by "sanctification", before we can say it has no end...

1. Sanctification - purification from sin - does have an end.

2. Sanctification - becoming more like Christ - will never end as we develop through eternity.

Which (if not another), use of the idea of "sanctification" are you making, when you say the above statement?

Mark :-)

[skyblue888]

But there is an understanding from Mark 4:26-29 that harvest time is when the corn of Christ's character will have been brought to full maturity (the latter rain will bring it to maturity, the full corn will be in the ear) which means that spiritually some will "come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." Eph.4:13. This is harvest time when the character of Christ is affixed and this will have been achieved prior to the close of probation.

"When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own." C.O.L. p.69.

sky

[Twilight]

But there is an understanding from Mark 4:26-29 that harvest time is when the corn of Christ's character will have been brought to full maturity (the latter rain will bring it to maturity, the full corn will be in the ear) which means that spiritually some will "come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." Eph.4:13. This is harvest time when the character of Christ is affixed and this will have been achieved prior to the close of probation.

"When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own." C.O.L. p.69.

sky

This is such an important principle and truth...

[skyblue888]

Yes it sure is Mark.

[Twilight]

Yes it sure is Mark.

I have started a new thread on this my friend, using the quotes you supplied above and your post.

Mark :-)