Jesus is coming soon...

[wayfinder]

Galatians 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify Ragain to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Severed from Christ, fallen from grace.

Ro 11:6

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Ro 3:24

being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Justification a gift by His grace. Maybe Paul didn't remember what he said earlier about doers of the Law.

[Bravus]

Thanks very much, there buster, and I withdraw my comments above, understanding the correct context. I feel a bit of a goose, but that's nothing new.

[BobRyan]

1 Cor 7:19 "But what matters is keeping the commandments of God".

James 2 "So live and act as those who are to be judged by the Law of Liberty".

John 14 "if you Love me KEEP My commandments".

Matt 7 "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will ENTER the kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father".

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make VOID the Law of God? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God"

Rom 2:6 those who "PERSEVERE IN DOING GOOD" inherit "immortality and eternal life".

Quote:

1John 2

3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.[/b]

4 The one who says, "" I have come to know Him,'' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:

6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

[Stewart (SDA)]

... the doctrine that human efforts have any contributary role in salvation is most certainly heretical.

A thought comes to mind:

"Strive to enter in at the straight gate, because many will [only] seek to enter in, but will not be able to do it."

Merely seeking to enter will not be enough.

Does effort have a contributary role?

From this I must say, "yes indeed".

_______

Stewart

[BobRyan]

Romans 2

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Ro 3:24

being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Justification a gift by His grace. Maybe Paul didn't remember what he said earlier about doers of the Law.

Nothing so simple.

He is pointing to the fact that our obedience is a product of grace and in Rom 3:24 he is pointing out the view of the lost person who comes to God justified by Grace.

In Romans 2 he is pointing out the work of the law in the life of the saved person.

He also does this in Romans 3:31 "Do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid!! IN fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God"

But you cannot stop at 3:24 -- you have to read all the way to the end of the chapter to get that last bit.

in Christ,

Bob

[Stewart (SDA)]

"every defect of character is to be put away" doesn't sound like grace to me."

To me it sounds similar to this:

"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds"

(Col 3:9)

__________

Stewart

[there buster]

Quote:

Thanks very much, there buster, and I withdraw my comments above, understanding the correct context. I feel a bit of a goose, but that's nothing new.

You're welcome. No need to feel foolish, however. The way it was presented was heretical.

Ellen White was a human being, as were all the prophets, and as such she sometimes did not communicate as clearly as, no doubt, she would have wished. In those three paragraphs, she wandered a bit, but nothing compared with some of Paul's excursions.

Just another example of how context determines meaning.

[wayfinder]

Romans 9:30-33 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

2Co 3:7

But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,

It would appear that the stone of stumbling is none other than the stone tablets upon which were written the Ten Commandments by the finger of God.

[BobRyan]

Indeed as Paul points out in both Romans 2 and 3 - there is "such a thing" as failure of the form of Jews who sought a solution by law "apart from faith".

But the context of the quotes I gave was in the context of the "Saved saint" - born again -- not the lost.

Hence Paul could assert for the saved saint "But what matters is keeping the commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

And Christ could say in John 14 and again in John 15 "IF you love Me KEEP My Commandments"

And thus his warning to those that are saved in Romans 11 "you stand only by your faith.. you should FEAR if He did not spare them -- neither will He spare you".

As it turns out - the NT authors do not always argue the point from the standpoint of the lost looking at the law of God. Very often they also address the context of the saved saint looking at the issue of obedience and the law of God as we see in Romans 2 and 11 and 6 and 8 and...

in Christ,

Bob

[LifeHiscost]

So then, "righteousness by faith" is not only the righteousness bestowed at justification, but also the righteousness that God works IN in sanctification. Both are by/through faith alone.

[BobRyan]

2Co 3:7

But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,

It would appear that the stone of stumbling is none other than the stone tablets upon which were written the Ten Commandments by the finger of God.

Actually as Paul points out in Romans 2 - it is the works of the law written on the heart that show the saved saint is alive and well.

He makes that case again in Hebrews 8 with the law of God written on the heart.

in 2Cor 3 it is the law of God that is "written on the tablets of the human heart".

It is the very same law as we see in James 2, and in Eph 6:1-4 and in Romans 7 that was written on the "tablets of stone" - that is under the new covenant written on the tablets of the human heart.

Both OT and NT -- it is the "ONE Gospel" for all time.

in Christ,

Bob

[wayfinder]

colossians 1:19-23 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

Ro 3:20

because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Ro 3:27,28

Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Keeping the Law or justified by faith apart from works of the Law?

Sounds like Paul is preaching both sides of the argument.

[wayfinder]

Gal. 4:21-31 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN." So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

Again Paul assults and insults the Ten Commandments and he is not adverse to taking scripture out of context.

[wayfinder]

Re 2:2

`I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;

[skyblue888]

To be under the law is to be under its condemnation.

Grace does not do away with law-keeping. On the contrary it establishes the law, it fulfills it in the life.

sky

[LifeHiscost]

If the ministers introduced the merits of Christ to their new "converts" and taught them the necessity of appropriating them by faith, and if they would teach them that as they do this the Father clothes them with the robe of Christ's righteousness which is the full armour of God and that this is how they are made "more than conquerors" in the battle against temptation, I believe there would be a true revival of primitive faith and godliness and the Lord could finish the work and cut it short in righteousness.

sky

I do not believe anyone can rightfully foist off on the ministers in the pulpit the reason/s for their individual lack. We all have been given access to the Word (I speak necessarily to the areas of the world that have freedom of access) and all the points of salvation are plainly given in the Word as expressed in the Holy Bible.

It is difficult to say why any certain person might be falling short, other than to say that when the truth is heard it is met with resistance and subsequently unbelief. This could be true even in a person who is very religious but has not come to recognize that without Christ, he/she can do nothing.

If we are friends of Jesus, but ourselves do not reveal that deep abiding faith that would draw others to place their trust in Him as Lord and Savior, we ourselves could fail of providing opportunities to those whom we come in contact.

"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters." Matthew 12:30

NIV

Blessings!

[Guest]

wayfinder, you are the one who is not adverse to: not only taking it out of context, but wresting, skewing, and misrepresenting scripture. You don't even try to understand what Paul is really saying, because if you did, it would blow a lot of your heretical surmisings right out of the water.

[Guest]

"every defect of character is to be put away" doesn't sound like grace to me.

That's because you don't understand what grace really is. Grace is the power to keep God's law. The power to become righteous. The power to be overcomers. Without it we can't do anything right.

[LifeHiscost]

But the doctrine that human efforts have any contributary role in salvation is most certainly heretical.

Would someone post a quote that reveals EGW taught human effort, separate from the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit, to be a contributing factor for salvation?

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."James 4:7 KJV

This reveals there is a part man plays to fulfill all righteousness. It also reveals resistance comes after submission.

Perhaps one could say with all assurance, the evidence of full salvation is found in full sanctification, which elsewhere in the Word happens at the coming of Christ, if we are to believe the Scriptures about the condition of all men at present.

How can we do all things well when we have yet to know all things needed?

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. "1 Corinthians 13:11,12 KJV

"But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,"

Romans 3:21-24 NKJV

For those who believe we add something to obtain our salvation, please tell when the above Scripture can no longer be believed.

""Divine power and the human agency combined will be a complete success, for Christ's righteousness accomplishes everything.""

I see no equivocation there.

Blessings!

[Guest]

Divine Power Will Unite With Human Effort.-- Without human effort divine effort is in vain. AH 206

[LifeHiscost]

John 14 "if you Love me KEEP My commandments".

[Guest]

If a man has tact, industry, and enthusiasm, he will make a success in temporal business, and the same qualities, consecrated to the work of God, will prove even doubly efficient; for divine power will be combined with human effort.-- Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 276.

[there buster]

Quote:

Bob, you will notice that in some (maybe many) translations, that text is written as a promise accomplished when a person truly loves, not a demand to do. Thus____"if you Love me you WILL KEEP My commandments".

The context demands that reading. In Jesus long exposition (John 13-17) he repeats several times "This is my commandment, that you love one another." That's the commandment referenced in ch. 14.

[Bravus]

Yep: as there buster showed, this is talking about the (corporate) work of God (in the world), not about the work of sanctification and salvation within the individual.

[LifeHiscost]

But you cannot stop at 3:24 -- you have to read all the way to the end of the chapter to get that last bit.

in Christ,

Bob

As well as the fact that when one is willing to admit a mistake, (sin if you please) has happened in their life, and repentance is asked for, a promise plainly takes precedence over the foolishness of straying from the fold.

"The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God."Isaiah 10:21 KJV

"I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee."Isaiah 44:22 KJV

"Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. "Malachi 3:7 KJV

Blessings!