Jesus is coming soon...

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

"Divinity and humanity combined will be a complete success." F.W.27

Again ... I must insist that Ellen White never said this quote. It is not in FW27 and if you would like to cut and paste it to the White Estate web site ... you will find that Ellen White never said them anywhere.

The entire sentence is: "Divine power and the human agency combined will be a complete success, for Christ's righteousness accomplishes everything."

It on the Ellen White Estate Website at this link,

http://www.egwtext.WhiteEstate.org/cgi-bin/egw2html?C=22922249&K=142807083110902335

and it is also in my copy of Faith and Works, page. 27 (1979). It is found in Ms. 36, 1890, and was published in the Review and Herald, Feb. 24 and March 3, 1977.

Maybe an apology and retraction is due.

Mark

[Woody]

If Ellen White said that (and it's pretty clear she did), then in that sentence she taught heresy. I think that's also pretty clear. I don't know how people who belive in her infallibility deal with that - perhaps with some kind of mental calisthenics. Or, I guess, they join her in her heresy. But the doctrine that human efforts have any contributary role in salvation is most certainly heretical.

Amen

[Woody]

Quote:

Thanks very much, there buster, and I withdraw my comments above, understanding the correct context. I feel a bit of a goose, but that's nothing new.

You're welcome. No need to feel foolish, however. The way it was presented was heretical.

Ellen White was a human being, as were all the prophets, and as such she sometimes did not communicate as clearly as, no doubt, she would have wished. In those three paragraphs, she wandered a bit, but nothing compared with some of Paul's excursions.

Just another example of how context determines meaning.

Amen

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

John 14 "if you Love me KEEP My commandments".

Bob, you will notice that in some (maybe many) translations, that text is written as a promise accomplished when a person truly loves, not a demand to do. Thus____"if you Love me you WILL KEEP My commandments".

Which agrees perfectly with___

"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."John 15:5 KJV

Blessings!

True. Christ is speaking to the saved saint about their proper role towards the Commandments. Which is the same context that Ellen White is using in her FW27 quote.

By contrast Other texts speak to the lost sinner about their proper role - and those texts do not say "keep the law better" rather they say "saved by grace through faith and that not of works".

The problem is that there are some readers of the text that imagine that the Bible only speaks to the case of the lost sinner and never to the saved saint when it comes to the law. So they carefully avoid texts like John 14:15 and texts like 1Cor 7:19 and Rom 3:31 and then choke whenever Ellen White affirms the very arminian nature of those Bible teachings such as the case in FW 27 where she highlights Phil 2 saying that we are to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling".

Those who slice up the Bible will inevitably have problems with Ellen White where she affirms those portions of the bible they are carefully avoiding.

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

Quote:

Maybe an apology and retraction is due.

Mark

No Amen to this one. And no apology forthcoming except if it be by you.

This is what Ellen White said:

Quote:

"Divine power and the human agency combined will be a complete success, for Christ's righteousness accomplishes everything." F.W.27

And this is what Sky "quoted" her as saying:

Quote:

"Divinity and humanity combined will be a complete success." F.W.27

To the good English student ... one can see a vast difference.

So, again I will say that Ellen White never stated what Sky quoted her as saying. This really ain't that hard to see folks.

Words are important. And it is important to preserve the actual words of our prophet. Not the stuff of legends. When one puts something in quotes ... it means that they actually said it as stated ... not as one might interpret what they said. If one wants to get into the interpreting business ... just leave off the quotes. And label it as interpretation.

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Bob, you will notice that in some (maybe many) translations, that text is written as a promise accomplished when a person truly loves, not a demand to do. Thus____"if you Love me you WILL KEEP My commandments".

The context demands that reading. In Jesus long exposition (John 13-17) he repeats several times "This is my commandment, that you love one another." That's the commandment referenced in ch. 14.

In John 12:49 Christ states clearly that none are His Words - they are all the Words of the Father.

In Matt 5 Christ states clearly that His ministry does not replace or delete even one tiny stroke of HIS WORD as written in the Old Testament scriptures.

In Gal 4:4 we are told that Christ was born under the full obligation of all the law and lived in perfect harmony to it - thus "walking as He walked" in 1John 2 is a reference to obedience to God's written word.

In John 17 Christ affirms of the Father "THY WORD is truth".

In 1Cor 7:19 Paul continues to affirm that same teaching "But what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD".

In Malachi 3:6 God says "I do not change"

in Heb 13 we are told of Christ "He is the SAME yesterday today and forever".

In Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"

In Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart".

Christ was continually quoting and upholding the text of scripture as the infallible unbreakable "Word of God".

In 2Tim 3:16 "ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God AND IS to be used for doctrine" the primary text of scripture at the time Paul is writing that letter to Timothy - is what we call today the "Old Testament".

Among "some" evangelicals there is the montra "whatever is not repeated gets deleted" but that rule never worked in scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

But the doctrine that human efforts have any contributary role in salvation is most certainly heretical.

Would someone post a quote that reveals EGW taught human effort, separate from the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit, to be a contributing factor for salvation?

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."James 4:7 KJV

This reveals there is a part man plays to fulfill all righteousness. It also reveals resistance comes after submission.

True. James 4:7 is instruction to the saved saint not the lost sinner.

Ellen White never argues that the lost sinner "by his own diligent effort" becomes a born again Christian "saved saint". She argues that in coming to Christ it is all by grace through faith not of works.

But when it comes to the bible perspective for the "saved saint" PERSEVERING "in doing good" with the outcome of "immortality and eternal life" Rom 2:6 -- well she has much to say on that topic in full agreement.

in Christ,

Bob

[Lutz13]

Divine Power Will Unite With Human Effort.-- Without human effort divine effort is in vain. AH 206

Right, God isn't up in heaven controlling me with a remote. I can listen or choose to not listen. If I listen He gives me the strength to fulfill His appointed task.

[Woody]

'Without human effort divine effort is in vain'. AH 206

Christ's effort on the cross did not require any of my effort. The only effort I need is to accept His effort. He died for me and secured my salvation on the cross. It's a done deal.

[BobRyan]

Except that as Arminians we completely reject OSAS (Once saved always saved) so that while your statement works from the perspective of the lost person seeking salvtion -- it does not address the Bible texts speaking to the saved person about the need for perseverance Rom 2:6 if they want to stay saved.

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

Except that as Arminians we completely reject OSAS (Once saved always saved) so that while your statement works from the perspective of the lost person seeking salvtion -- it does not address the Bible texts speaking to the saved person about the need for perseverance Rom 2:6 if they want to stay saved.

in Christ,

Bob

I think I agree with you.

However the saved status remains there. We just have to want it. Sin will take us away from Christ and a desire to be with Him and to be saved. So while works do not in any way save us legally. They do save us in the sense that we will want to be saved. And that will kind of save us.

[Lutz13]

God can only save us if we trust Him. The more the relationship grows the more you trust in Him. There was a time when I couldn't say if I was saved or not. Today I can because I trust God to save me. One by one He takes my sin away from me.

I love the moments when I look back and realize I just walked down a path He laid out for me. It is one of those moments when you get a huge smile on your face and cannot stop smiling no matter how hard you try. Then you look up and say "Thank you, you're amazing!" I have been having a lot of those lately. It has been wonderful.

The fall down moments happen a lot too, but He always lifts you back up. He amazes me more and more each day.

[Woody]

Quote:

"There was a time when I couldn't say if I was saved or not. Today I can because I trust God to save me."

Praise God for your testimony Lutz and for being saved. I am saved also. Only due to His love and Grace towards me.

[skyblue888]

This is nothing but "evangelical" talk Redwood. They all say that, especially the Pentecostal people. The first question they will ask you is, "Are you saved?" But this is misleading. Take yourself Redwood for example. On every forum I have met you, you keep talking about "our prophet," what our prophet says and this and that and yet you don't believe half of what she has said. On this matter of being saved she has made it clear that we are never to say, "I am saved," and yet you keep repeating, "I am saved."

The prophet has explained to us why we are never to say those words as long as we are in this world of sin and sorrow. The only time it will be appropriate to say, "I am saved," is when we walk through the everlasting gates. "No sanctified tongue will be found uttering those words till Christ shall come, and we enter in through the gates. Then with the utmost propriety we may give glory to God and to the Lamb for eternal deliverance. As long as man is full of weakness, for of himself he cannot save his soul, he should never dare to say, 'I am saved.'" 1 S.M.314.

Lutz, will you agree to say that there is a vast difference between trusting God that He is saving you and saying, "I am saved." Right?

[Lutz13]

This is pure "evangelical" talk. They all say that, especially the Pentecostal people. The first question they will ask you is, "Are you saved?" But this is misleading. Take yourself Redwood for example. On every forum I have met you, you keep talking about "our prophet," what our prophet says and this and that and yet you don't believe half of what she has said. On this matter of being saved she has made it clear that we are never to say, "I am saved," and yet you keep repeating, "I am saved."

The prophet has explained to us why we are never to say those words as long as we are in this world of sin and sorrow. The only time it will be appropriate to say, "I am saved," is when we walk through the everlasting gates. "No sanctified tongue will be found uttering those words till Christ shall come, and we enter in through the gates. Then with the utmost propriety we may give glory to God and to the Lamb for eternal deliverance. As long as man is full of weakness, for of himself he cannot save his soul, he should never dare to say, 'I am saved.'" 1 S.M.314.

sky

That is something I will not buy into. I trust 100% that God can and will save me. I also don't buy into once saved always saved either. I am free to jump off the ship at any time. Though I have seen how amazing our God is, and that just isn't an option for me.

Just like we are to never EVER think that someone isn't saved because of their actions or their knowledge. God takes us all down different paths. God fixes us in His time not ours. If we just trust in Him, He will get us ready for heaven!

[Woody]

What our prophet meant was that we can't know what we will desire in the future. Who knows. In the future at some point ... I may decide to reject Christ. But today at this moment .... I can say with confidence that I am saved. If I were to die in the next minute ... I would be saved. Obviously I can't know what I will do ten years from now and our prophet was giving caution to us not to state that we are saved no matter what. We should not believe in "Once saved Always saved". This was her concern and rightly so.

[Woody]

Quote:

Make Sure Ellen White Said It

A fair number of statements are in circulation that apparently have been falsely attributed to Ellen White. How can we identify such statements? The first clue that they are apocryphal for those who are familiar with Ellen White's writings is that such statements are often out of harmony with the general tenor of her thought. That is, they seem strange when compared to the bulk of her ideas, appear to be out of place in her mouth. Strangeness, of course, is not proof that we are dealing with an apocryphal statement. It is merely an indication.

The safest way to test the authenticity of an Ellen White statement is to ask for the reference to its source. Once we know where it is found, we can check to see if Ellen White said it and also examine the wording and context to determine if it has been interpreted correctly.

The issue of supposed statements also came up in Mrs. White's lifetime. Her fullest treatment of the problem appears in volume 5 of Testimonies for the Church, pages 692 through 696. It can be examined profitably by all readers of Ellen White's writings:

"Beware," she says, "how you give credence to such reports" (p. 694). She concludes her discussion of the topic with the following words: "To all who have a desire for truth I would say: Do not give credence to unauthenticated reports as to what Sister White has done or said or written. If you desire to know what the Lord has revealed through her, read her published works. . . . Do not eagerly catch up and report rumors as to what she has said" (p. 696).

While we can no longer send supposed statements to Ellen White for her verification, we can contact the White Estate office at the General Conference headquarters or visit the nearest SDA-Ellen G. White Research Center to verify the authenticity of a statement or to inquire about other questions we might have.

[Condensed and adapted from George R. Knight, Reading Ellen White (Hagerstown, Maryland: Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1997), pp. 43-123. Available from Adventist Book Centers: 1-800-765-6955 or Review and Herald Publishing Association: http://www.rhpa.org]

[Lutz13]

Lutz, will you agree to say that there is a vast difference between trusting God that He is saving you and saying, "I am saved." Right?

Oh, I think I understand what you are saying. As of right now, I know I am not fit for heaven. Yet I know God will fix me so that I am. So I say it as, I will be saved.

[BobRyan]

This is nothing but "evangelical" talk Redwood. They all say that, especially the Pentecostal people. The first question they will ask you is, "Are you saved?" But this is misleading. Take yourself Redwood for example. On every forum I have met you, you keep talking about "our prophet," what our prophet says and this and that and yet you don't believe half of what she has said. On this matter of being saved she has made it clear that we are never to say, "I am saved," and yet you keep repeating, "I am saved."

The prophet has explained to us why we are never to say those words as long as we are in this world of sin and sorrow. The only time it will be appropriate to say, "I am saved," is when we walk through the everlasting gates. "No sanctified tongue will be found uttering those words till Christ shall come, and we enter in through the gates. Then with the utmost propriety we may give glory to God and to the Lamb for eternal deliverance. As long as man is full of weakness, for of himself he cannot save his soul, he should never dare to say, 'I am saved.'" 1 S.M.314.

Lutz, will you agree to say that there is a vast difference between trusting God that He is saving you and saying, "I am saved." Right?

I am in agreement with Redwood on this one.

Ellen White was addressing the issue of "holy flesh" and those who were claiming they "could not be tempted" those who claimed in effect in her day "Once saved always saved"!.

The problem is that terminology has changed over the decades so that now the term "saved" does not necessarily carry that meaning - particularly for Arminian groups like ours that do not believe in OSAS.

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

Good Point Lutz. He is going to change us ...

"Through the merits of the Redeemer, God accepts the efforts of sinful man in keeping His law, which is holy,just and good" Sons and Daughters of God p. 41

"It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving to man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed at the second coming." 7BC 649

"Perfection now is ours only in Christ, but the ultimate, all-comprehensive transformation of our lives into the image of God will take place at the Second Advent ...

Neither Christlike character traits nor faultess behaviour is the ground of our acceptance with God. Saving righteourness comes from the one righteous Man Jesus and is conveyed to us by the Holy Spirit. We can contribute nothing to Christ's gift of righteousness - we can only receive it. No one other than Christ is righteous; independent human righteousness is only filthy rags. " Seventh-Day Adventists Believe p. 145-6

"If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ’s character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned." CSA 30

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Skyblue888

Lutz, will you agree to say that there is a vast difference between trusting God that He is saving you and saying, "I am saved." Right?

Oh, I think I understand what you are saying. As of right now, I know I am not fit for heaven. Yet I know God will fix me so that I am. So I say it as, I will be saved.

Okay. But if you die in the Lord now, you are fit for Heaven. But we should never dare to say "I am saved." Someone who is filled with the Holy Spirit will never dare to say "I am saved" as long as he lives in this sinful world but when he walks through the gates then with the upmost propriety he will be able to say those words and only then.

sky

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Skyblue888

Lutz, will you agree to say that there is a vast difference between trusting God that He is saving you and saying, "I am saved." Right?

Oh, I think I understand what you are saying. As of right now, I know I am not fit for heaven. Yet I know God will fix me so that I am. So I say it as, I will be saved.

Becoming saved "happens in an instant". The moment you are born again you are "saved". If you died at that moment you would raised with the saints. You ARE in fact a saint as of that instant.

The walk of sanctification that you see in Romans 8 is a walk that only the Saved Saint CAN walk because it requires you to "BY the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh".

You see the same thing in Romans 6 where the SAVED -- the born-again raised with Christ are called to victory over sin.

The lost are never called to be victors over sin because they are in the depraved Rom 3 state of "there is no one who seeks after God -- no not one".

Their job is to "stop persevering in rebellion".

the job of the saint is to "KEEP perseverinig in doing good" Rom 2:6.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Ellen White on the assurance of salvation

Quote:

How are you to know that you are accepted of God? Study his word prayerfully. Lay it not aside for any other book. This book convinces of sin. It reveals plainly the way of salvation. It brings to view a bright and glorious reward. It reveals to you a complete Saviour, and teaches you that through his boundless mercy alone can you expect salvation. {2SG 264.2}

Do not neglect secret prayer, for it is the soul of religion. With earnest, fervent prayer plead for purity of soul. Plead as earnestly, as eagerly, as you would for your mortal life, were it at stake. Remain before God until unutterable longings are begotten within you for salvation, and the sweet evidence is obtained of pardoned sin. {2SG 264.3}

The hope of eternal life is not to be taken up upon slight grounds. It is a subject to be settled between God and your own soul; settled for eternity. A supposed hope, and nothing more, will prove your ruin. Since you are to

265

stand or fall by the word of God, it is to that word you must look for testimony in your case. There you can see what is required of you to become a Christian. Do not lay off your armor, nor leave the battle field until you have obtained the victory, and triumph in your Redeemer.

-

{2SG 264.4}

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

If Ellen White said that (and it's pretty clear she did), then in that sentence she taught heresy. I think that's also pretty clear. I don't know how people who belive in her infallibility deal with that - perhaps with some kind of mental calisthenics. Or, I guess, they join her in her heresy. But the doctrine that human efforts have any contributary role in salvation is most certainly heretical.

Amen

Hmmm....

I thought you was a defender of EGW Redwood, have you changed your position, that you now think Ellen White taught heresy?

Please clarify your "amen".

[BobRyan]

Assurance of Salvation

I believe in Jesus. I know my Saviour loves me, and I love my Jesus. I rest in His love, notwithstanding my imperfections. God has accepted His perfection in my behalf. He is my righteousness and I trust in His merits. I am His repenting, believing child. He has taken away my sin-stained garments and covered me with the robe of His righteousness. Clothed in this garment, I stand before the Father justified. I am of that number who are addressed as the "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit." And what constitutes them the "elect"? "Obedience and the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ."--Letter 24, 1895, p. 3. (To "Dear Sister Eckman," May 19, 1895.) {4MR 245.3}

http://egwwritings.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...pter13117.htm#1

Quote:

1SM P388 "Justified By Faith"

When God pardons the sinner, remits the punishment he deserves, and treats Him as though he had not sinned, He receives Him into divine favor, and justifies him through the merits of Christ's righteousness.

The sinner can be justified only through faith in the atonement made through God's dear Son, who became a sacrifice for the sins of the guilty world. No one can be justified by works of his own. He can be delivered from the guilt of sin, from the condemnation of the law, from the penalty of sin, only by the virtue of the suffering, death, and resurrection of Christ.

Faith is the ONLY condition upon which justification can be obtained.

1SM p 391 the faith that is unto salvation is not a casual faith it is not a mere consent of the intellect, it is belief rooted in heart, that embrace Christ as a personnal Savior, assured that he can save unto the uttermost all that come unto God by Him. To believe that he will save others but will not save you is not genuine faith.;

1SM p 392 "the perishing sinner may say: 'I am a lost sinner; but Christ came to seek and to save that which was lost. He says, --- I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance ---. I am a sinner and he died upon calvary's cross to save me. I need not remain a moment longer unsaved. He died and rose again for my justification, and he will save me now. I accept the forgiveness he has promise' ".

1SM p394 "in ourselves we are sinners; but in Christ we are righteous. Having made us righteous through the imputed righteousness of Christ, God pronounces us just, he looks upon us as his dear children.

1SM p396 "every soul may say ' by his perfect obedience he has satisfied the claims of the law, and my only hope is found in looking to Him as my substitute and surety, who obeyed the law perfectly for me. By faith in his merrits I am free from the condemnation of the law. He clothes me with his righteousness which answers all the demands of the law. I am complete in Him who brings in everlasting righteousness. He presents me to God in the spotless garment of which no thread was woven by any human agent."