Jesus is coming soon...

[Lutz13]

Becoming saved "happens in an instant". The moment you are born again you are "saved". If you died at that moment you would raised with the saints. You ARE in fact a saint as of that instant.

The walk of sanctification that you see in Romans 8 is a walk that only the Saved Saint CAN walk because it requires you to "BY the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh".

You see the same thing in Romans 6 where the SAVED -- the born-again raised with Christ are called to victory over sin.

The lost are never called to be victors over sin because they are in the depraved Rom 3 state of "there is no one who seeks after God -- no not one".

Their job is to "stop persevering in rebellion".

the job of the saint is to "KEEP perseverinig in doing good" Rom 2:6.

in Christ,

Bob

Amen Bob! I agree with you, I guess I wasn't explaining it very well. That tends to happen with me a lot!

[Twilight]

Quote:

Maybe an apology and retraction is due.

Mark

No Amen to this one. And no apology forthcoming except if it be by you.

This is what Ellen White said:

Quote:

"Divine power and the human agency combined will be a complete success, for Christ's righteousness accomplishes everything." F.W.27

And this is what Sky "quoted" her as saying:

Quote:

"Divinity and humanity combined will be a complete success." F.W.27

To the good English student ... one can see a vast difference.

So, again I will say that Ellen White never stated what Sky quoted her as saying. This really ain't that hard to see folks.

Words are important. And it is important to preserve the actual words of our prophet. Not the stuff of legends. When one puts something in quotes ... it means that they actually said it as stated ... not as one might interpret what they said. If one wants to get into the interpreting business ... just leave off the quotes. And label it as interpretation.

Yes words are important, we should guard against loose words.

Please see the following link, look on page 27 and you will see the quote Sky made.

Then maybe you will retract your statement about this not being from Ellen White?

http://books.google.com/books?id=GDOnx9Z...;q=&f=false

Mark

[Twilight]

God can only save us if we trust Him. The more the relationship grows the more you trust in Him. There was a time when I couldn't say if I was saved or not. Today I can because I trust God to save me. One by one He takes my sin away from me.

I love the moments when I look back and realize I just walked down a path He laid out for me. It is one of those moments when you get a huge smile on your face and cannot stop smiling no matter how hard you try. Then you look up and say "Thank you, you're amazing!" I have been having a lot of those lately. It has been wonderful.

The fall down moments happen a lot too, but He always lifts you back up. He amazes me more and more each day.

Psa 37:24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth [him with] his hand.

[Twilight]

Quote:

Make Sure Ellen White Said It

A fair number of statements are in circulation that apparently have been falsely attributed to Ellen White. How can we identify such statements? The first clue that they are apocryphal for those who are familiar with Ellen White's writings is that such statements are often out of harmony with the general tenor of her thought. That is, they seem strange when compared to the bulk of her ideas, appear to be out of place in her mouth. Strangeness, of course, is not proof that we are dealing with an apocryphal statement. It is merely an indication.

The safest way to test the authenticity of an Ellen White statement is to ask for the reference to its source. Once we know where it is found, we can check to see if Ellen White said it and also examine the wording and context to determine if it has been interpreted correctly.

The issue of supposed statements also came up in Mrs. White's lifetime. Her fullest treatment of the problem appears in volume 5 of Testimonies for the Church, pages 692 through 696. It can be examined profitably by all readers of Ellen White's writings:

"Beware," she says, "how you give credence to such reports" (p. 694). She concludes her discussion of the topic with the following words: "To all who have a desire for truth I would say: Do not give credence to unauthenticated reports as to what Sister White has done or said or written. If you desire to know what the Lord has revealed through her, read her published works. . . . Do not eagerly catch up and report rumors as to what she has said" (p. 696).

While we can no longer send supposed statements to Ellen White for her verification, we can contact the White Estate office at the General Conference headquarters or visit the nearest SDA-Ellen G. White Research Center to verify the authenticity of a statement or to inquire about other questions we might have.

[Condensed and adapted from George R. Knight, Reading Ellen White (Hagerstown, Maryland: Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1997), pp. 43-123. Available from Adventist Book Centers: 1-800-765-6955 or Review and Herald Publishing Association: http://www.rhpa.org]

Does that also including using Bible Commentary quotes to justify the idea that Jesus changes us when He comes, using those quotes in the midst of a collection of EGW Quotes, allowing the inference they are her quotes by insertion and silence, without pointing them out?

Would the above counsel us not to do that as well Redwood?

Mark

[LifeHiscost]

The problem with error is that it attaches itself to our sins...

So to give up error often means giving up sins.

Mark :-)

Regrettably, I see this battle in my own life. How grateful I am for a God with the love, wisdom, desire and ability to circumvent my own propensities to destroy myself.

"Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee"Jeremiah 32:17 KJV

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."Hebrews 12:2 KJV

Blessings!

[Twilight]

Good Point Lutz. He is going to change us ...

"Through the merits of the Redeemer, God accepts the efforts of sinful man in keeping His law, which is holy,just and good" Sons and Daughters of God p. 41

"It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving to man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed at the second coming." 7BC 649

"Perfection now is ours only in Christ, but the ultimate, all-comprehensive transformation of our lives into the image of God will take place at the Second Advent ...

Neither Christlike character traits nor faultess behaviour is the ground of our acceptance with God. Saving righteourness comes from the one righteous Man Jesus and is conveyed to us by the Holy Spirit. We can contribute nothing to Christ's gift of righteousness - we can only receive it. No one other than Christ is righteous; independent human righteousness is only filthy rags. " Seventh-Day Adventists Believe p. 145-6

"If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ’s character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned." CSA 30

Please be aware that many of these quotes may not be from Ellen White.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

Oh, I think I understand what you are saying. As of right now, I know I am not fit for heaven. Yet I know God will fix me so that I am. So I say it as, I will be saved. [/quote']

Okay. But if you die in the Lord now, you are fit for Heaven. But we should never dare to say "I am saved." Someone who is filled with the Holy Spirit will never dare to say "I am saved" as long as he lives in this sinful world but when he walks through the gates then with the upmost propriety he will be able to say those words and only then.

sky

The problem with using the term "I am saved", is that its common usage is for "once saved always saved", so people may think we are condoning that doctrine.

I personally much prefer:

"I am walking with God". :-)

[Twilight]

Ellen White on the assurance of salvation

Quote:

How are you to know that you are accepted of God? Study his word prayerfully. Lay it not aside for any other book. This book convinces of sin. It reveals plainly the way of salvation. It brings to view a bright and glorious reward. It reveals to you a complete Saviour, and teaches you that through his boundless mercy alone can you expect salvation. {2SG 264.2}

Do not neglect secret prayer, for it is the soul of religion. With earnest, fervent prayer plead for purity of soul. Plead as earnestly, as eagerly, as you would for your mortal life, were it at stake. Remain before God until unutterable longings are begotten within you for salvation, and the sweet evidence is obtained of pardoned sin. {2SG 264.3}

The hope of eternal life is not to be taken up upon slight grounds. It is a subject to be settled between God and your own soul; settled for eternity. A supposed hope, and nothing more, will prove your ruin. Since you are to

265

stand or fall by the word of God, it is to that word you must look for testimony in your case. There you can see what is required of you to become a Christian. Do not lay off your armor, nor leave the battle field until you have obtained the victory, and triumph in your Redeemer.

-

{2SG 264.4}

Thank you for those quotes Bob, but I do not see them saying the same thing as "I am saved".

We can have an assurance of Salvation in Christ, I agree.

But we can choose to leave that at any time.

So we are therefore always in the process and are not the finished article.

When someone says "I am saved", I infer from that, as does most of the Christian world, that they cannot be lost.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

The problem with error is that it attaches itself to our sins...

So to give up error often means giving up sins.

Mark :-)

Regrettably, I see this battle in my own life. How grateful I am for a God with the love, wisdom, desire and ability to circumvent my own propensities to destroy myself.

"Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee"Jeremiah 32:17 KJV

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."Hebrews 12:2 KJV

Blessings!

And how often He allows us to see our stupidity (sinfulness is pure stupidity), and permits us to recieve the consequence of that stupidity to bring us back to His presence...

Mark :-)

[LifeHiscost]

Just another example of how context determines meaning.

Amen

[BobRyan]

Thank you for those quotes Bob, but I do not see them saying the same thing as "I am saved".

We can have an assurance of Salvation in Christ, I agree.

But we can choose to leave that at any time.

So we are therefore always in the process and are not the finished article.

When someone says "I am saved", I infer from that, as does most of the Christian world, that they cannot be lost.

Mark :-)

If that is the meaning you put into the term then I agree completely Ellen White never supports OSAS - not even a little.

But when I speak with many other SDAs and a great deal of non-SDAs they do not use that meaning which is why they insist on adding the OSAS "phrasing" -- "Once saved always saved" since they know that arminian groups like Methodists and Adventists DO claim that you can lose your salvation "saved" status.

Thus "in that context" if I were to tell them "I do not believe I am saved" they would suppose that I just told them "I am not born again... I am not a Christian, I have not experienced the new creation of 2Cor 5, I am not justified, I do not have the Romans 5 peace with God" etc etc.

Which of course -- you do not mean at all by saying that - but it is the meaning that is conveyed more often than not.

So .. to avoid the confusion - I use the current definition for the term and add that I do not believe in OSAS and that I think a person can lose that salvation.

in Christ,

Bob

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Thank you for those quotes Bob, but I do not see them saying the same thing as "I am saved".

We can have an assurance of Salvation in Christ, I agree.

But we can choose to leave that at any time.

So we are therefore always in the process and are not the finished article.

When someone says "I am saved", I infer from that, as does most of the Christian world, that they cannot be lost.

Mark :-)

If that is the meaning you put into the term then I agree completely Ellen White never supports OSAS - not even a little.

But when I speak with many other SDAs and a great deal of non-SDAs they do not use that meaning which is why they insist on adding the OSAS "phrasing" -- "Once saved always saved" since they know that arminian groups like Methodists and Adventists DO claim that you can lose your salvation "saved" status.

Thus "in that context" if I were to tell them "I do not believe I am saved" they would suppose that I just told them "I am not born again... I am not a Christian, I have not experienced the new creation of 2Cor 5, I am not justified, I do not have the Romans 5 peace with God" etc etc.

Which of course -- you do not mean at all by saying that - but it is the meaning that is conveyed more often than not.

So .. to avoid the confusion - I use the current definition for the term and add that I do not believe in OSAS and that I think a person can lose that salvation.

in Christ,

Bob

The vagaries of culture and language. :-)

I just avoid the use of the term, as I could never know who is listening and might infer the wrong thing...

Mark :-)

[LifeHiscost]

Those who slice up the Bible will inevitably have problems with Ellen White where she affirms those portions of the bible they are carefully avoiding.

in Christ,

Bob

I'm wondering if you place any significance to this counsel?

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."2 Timothy 2:15 KJV

And I would also like to suggest, many problems of understanding are a result of using the writings of Ellen White (whom I believe to be a person sent of God) to interpret the Scripture instead of going to the Scripture to interpret Ellen Whites writings.

The Holy Scriptures are their own expositor, of which EGW specifically refers to, in one case like this (to the best of my recall): "Sister White, what does this mean, Sister white, what does that mean?" To which she replied "Go to the Scriptures, etc" ;which is a principle espoused even by the Lord Jesus Christ.

"Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures..." Matthew 21:42 KJV

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? " Luke 10:25,26 KJV

Blessings!

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

Maybe an apology and retraction is due.

Mark

No Amen to this one. And no apology forthcoming except if it be by you.

This is what Ellen White said:

Quote:

"Divine power and the human agency combined will be a complete success, for Christ's righteousness accomplishes everything." F.W.27

And this is what Sky "quoted" her as saying:

Quote:

"Divinity and humanity combined will be a complete success." F.W.27

To the good English student ... one can see a vast difference.

So, again I will say that Ellen White never stated what Sky quoted her as saying. This really ain't that hard to see folks.

Words are important. And it is important to preserve the actual words of our prophet. Not the stuff of legends. When one puts something in quotes ... it means that they actually said it as stated ... not as one might interpret what they said. If one wants to get into the interpreting business ... just leave off the quotes. And label it as interpretation.

Yes words are important, we should guard against loose words.

Please see the following link, look on page 27 and you will see the quote Sky made.

Then maybe you will retract your statement about this not being from Ellen White?

http://books.google.com/books?id=GDOnx9Z...;q=&f=false

Mark

Again ... see the above quotes to see that Ellen White never stated the words that Sky quoted. Thanks for providing the proof. Will you now apologize?

[LifeHiscost]

But when it comes to the bible perspective for the "saved saint" PERSEVERING "in doing good" with the outcome of "immortality and eternal life" Rom 2:6 -- well she has much to say on that topic in full agreement.

in Christ,

Bob

Once a person is born again (from above), persevering in the faith is an effort, the same as the blood coursing through the body after receiving the breath of life. One can by personal effort put a stop to the flowing of that blood but on the whole, most will gladly let it flow.

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." John 5:39 KJV

Blessings!

[Woody]

If that is the meaning you put into the term then I agree completely Ellen White never supports OSAS - not even a little.

But when I speak with many other SDAs and a great deal of non-SDAs they do not use that meaning which is why they insist on adding the OSAS "phrasing" -- "Once saved always saved" since they know that arminian groups like Methodists and Adventists DO claim that you can lose your salvation "saved" status.

Thus "in that context" if I were to tell them "I do not believe I am saved" they would suppose that I just told them "I am not born again... I am not a Christian, I have not experienced the new creation of 2Cor 5, I am not justified, I do not have the Romans 5 peace with God" etc etc.

Which of course -- you do not mean at all by saying that - but it is the meaning that is conveyed more often than not.

So .. to avoid the confusion - I use the current definition for the term and add that I do not believe in OSAS and that I think a person can lose that salvation.

in Christ,

Bob

Good Post. I would just prefer to say that you can't 'lose' it but you can 'refuse' it. Salvation is there for the taking. We just have to want it and reach out and take the gift. The gift is always there.

[LifeHiscost]

God can only save us if we trust Him. The more the relationship grows the more you trust in Him. There was a time when I couldn't say if I was saved or not. Today I can because I trust God to save me. One by one He takes my sin away from me.

I love the moments when I look back and realize I just walked down a path He laid out for me. It is one of those moments when you get a huge smile on your face and cannot stop smiling no matter how hard you try. Then you look up and say "Thank you, you're amazing!" I have been having a lot of those lately. It has been wonderful.

The fall down moments happen a lot too, but He always lifts you back up. He amazes me more and more each day.

Worth repeating. Praise God. And I've never known or heard of anyone being kicked off the "Way" once one begins.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6 KJV

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"Philippians 1:6 KJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Lutz, will you agree to say that there is a vast difference between trusting God that He is saving you and saying, "I am saved." Right?

Not addressed to me but would like to claim a couple of promises that are without equivocation.

"Now to Him Who, by (in consequence of) the [action of His] power that is at work within us, is able to [carry out His purpose and] do superabundantly, far over and above all that we [dare] ask or think [infinitely beyond our highest prayers, desires, thoughts, hopes, or dreams]--"

Ephesians 3:20 AMP

"Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward."Hebrews 10:35

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ"Philippians 1:6 KJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Those who slice up the Bible will inevitably have problems with Ellen White where she affirms those portions of the bible they are carefully avoiding.

in Christ,

Bob

I'm wondering if you place any significance to this counsel?

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."2 Timothy 2:15 KJV

And I would also like to suggest, many problems of understanding are a result of using the writings of Ellen White (whom I believe to be a person sent of God) to interpret the Scripture instead of going to the Scripture to interpret Ellen Whites writings.

The Holy Scriptures are their own expositor, of which EGW specifically refers to, in one case like this (to the best of my recall): "Sister White, what does this mean, Sister white, what does that mean?" To which she replied "Go to the Scriptures, etc" ;which is a principle espoused even by the Lord Jesus Christ.

"Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures..." Matthew 21:42 KJV

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? " Luke 10:25,26 KJV

Blessings!

I agree with that sentiment for one very important reason.

The scriptures supply a variety of "understandings" from different perspectives.

They all speak a common truth, but express it in different ways.

If we only used SOP as a basis for truth, we would miss some of those things that Ellen White did not know about...

Can I be hung for such a statement?

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Yes words are important, we should guard against loose words.

Please see the following link, look on page 27 and you will see the quote Sky made.

Then maybe you will retract your statement about this not being from Ellen White?

http://books.google.com/books?id=GDOnx9Z...;q=&f=false

Mark [/quote']

Again ... see the above quotes to see that Ellen White never stated the words that Sky quoted. Thanks for providing the proof. Will you now apologize?

I do apologise Redwood, you are correct, the quote is not identical.

Mark

[LifeHiscost]

And how often He allows us to see our stupidity (sinfulness is pure stupidity), and permits us to recieve the consequence of that stupidity to bring us back to His presence...

Mark :-)

Sometimes the answer to, "Why me, Lord?" But not always.

"Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him."John 9:3 KJV

Blessings!

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

And how often He allows us to see our stupidity (sinfulness is pure stupidity), and permits us to recieve the consequence of that stupidity to bring us back to His presence...

Mark :-)

Sometimes the answer to, "Why me, Lord?" But not always.

"Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him."John 9:3 KJV

Blessings!

I thought this would make a good discussion so have started a new thread.

Mark :-)

[LifeHiscost]

If we only used SOP as a basis for truth, we would miss some of those things that Ellen White did not know about...

Can I be hung for such a statement?

Mark

I am sure there are some that would, However there does seem to be a spirit of allowing one to think for themselves on this forum

without automatically believing they are necessarily a wolf in sheeps clothing.

Must go for now. It's been fun. I'll be looking for the new thread.

Blessings!

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

If we only used SOP as a basis for truth, we would miss some of those things that Ellen White did not know about...

Can I be hung for such a statement?

Mark

I am sure there are some that would, However there does seem to be a spirit of allowing one to think for themselves on this forum

without automatically believing they are necessarily a wolf in sheeps clothing.

Must go for now. It's been fun. I'll be looking for the new thread.

Blessings!

The above would make a good discussion at some point, but would be a tough one. :-)