The Blood is Powerful

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

How? (i.e.' date=' How could God have given us the power to overcome without Christ having died?) [/quote']

The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. Rev.3:21.

The conquering here is overcoming. Jesus showed us how to overcome so that we could overcome as he did. His reward is to sit on His Father's throne with Him. Our reward will be to sit on His throne with Him.

He does not overcome for us. Overcome what? Sin, of course. Jesus became sanctified to show us how to become sanctified. He does not sanctify us by downloading righteousness into us, that is our job. He did for us that which we cannot do for ourselves, and that is die forever to pay the penalty for the sin of disobedience.

Jesus died so that our overcoming sin would matter, not so that we would not have to overcome at all.

This isn't addressing my question. The opinion expressed above seems to be that overcoming sin is completely independent of the cross. I don't understand that. I read that the gospel is the power of God for salvation for all who believe, and without the cross, there is no gospel, and hence no power of God unto salvation. So unless salvation has nothing to do with overcoming sin, the cross must be central to overcoming sin.

[Guest]

Amen

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Excellent post. Thank you. It is very clear. If God wanted to give us power to overcome ... He could do that without spilling blood.

So you're saying then, that God dosn't want to give us power to overcome?

Redwood, I have noticed you have real difficulty clarifying a post when asked.

When someone does not understand your position and queries it, you often tend to not want to clarify it.

Your subsequent post to Richard on this question is a good example.

If you do not clarify what you are saying, then why make the point in the first place?

Mark

[Twilight]

He does not overcome for us. Overcome what? Sin, of course. Jesus became sanctified to show us how to become sanctified. He does not sanctify us by downloading righteousness into us, that is our job.

Jesus did indeed overcome for us.

We then receive that victory through the ministration of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God.

If one thinks that they can manufacture obedience without the direct agency of the Holy Spirit, they are a Pharisee.

Where we get confused is at the level of co-operation.

Our will is used to receive Gods promises.

Not to carry out Gods promises.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

The blood of Christ is biblical terminology for the "merits of Christ".

You will not find the term "merit" in the KJV.

But look for the term "blood".

They hold the same fundamental meaning in my understanding.

Mark :-)

[skyblue888]

The way I understand it is that the blood that was shed upon Calvary's cross is of value beyond estimate simply because God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. It was the life of God in His Son that was for us poured out upon Calvary's cross. It was an infinite sacrifice. Who can measure the infinity of that sacrifice? Therefore it is full of merits, full of divine merits. We cannot fathom the merits of that sacrifice and yet unless by faith we appropriate these divine merits to ourselves on a daily basis, we cannot please God and therefore we cannot find His approval and therefore we cannot find pardon and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit and be made more than conquerors over all our inherited and cultivated tendencies toe evil and we cannot form a Christian character. The Father receives us to Himself only through the merits of His Son:

"We see in the midst of the throne One bearing in hands and feet and side the marks of the suffering endured to reconcile man to God. We see a Father, infinite, dwelling in light unapproachable, yet receiving us to Himself through the merits of His Son."

It is vital that we understand this matter for "The merits of a crucifiend and risen Saviour are the foundation of the Christian's faith." G.C.73.

We are to continually build upon that foundation by making it our lifebusiness to look to Jesus and to accept His merits which it is our privilege to claim. See T.M.93.

Nobody in the world has any difficulty recognizing that the more value an idea has the more merits that idea has especially if it can bring great financial dividents; businessmen have no difficulty understanding the "merits" of a profitable idea,,,,

The more value the people of the world ascribe to a good deed, the more merits that good deed will have in their own eyes,,, the merits of a sacrifice is measured by its value, the greater the sacrifice the greater the merits and yet when it comes to the greatest sacrifice ever made, not by a creature, but by the Creator of all things, it is almost impossible to find anyone that will spend any time talking about the merits of such an unfathomable deed, a truth that is pregnant with eternal resuls!

"Unless he makes it his lifebusiness to behold the uplifted Savior and to accept the merits which it is his privilege to claim, the sinner can no more be saved than Peter could walk upon the water unless he kept his eyes fixed steadily upon Jesus." T.M.93 (1888 message in a nutshell)

Thus we read, "The only faith that will benefit us is that which embraces Him as a personal Savior: which appropriates His merits to ourselves." D.A.347.

"Many have a nominal faith in Christ, but they know nothing of that vital dependence upon Him which appropriates the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour." 1 S.M.389.

"Let us trust in the merits of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. May God help us that our eyes may be anointed with eyesalve that we may see." E.G. White, 1888 Materials, Vol.2, p.557.

That we may see the utter worthlessness of trusting in creature merits to obtain the favor of God.

"We had devised for ourselves many useless follies but You have placed Your word before me like a torch, and You have touched my heart in order that I may hold in abomination all other merits save those of Jesus." G.C.221.

"The merits of Jesus blot out transgressions and clothe us with the robe of righteousness woven in the loom of Heaven." Evangelism, p.186.

Christ's righteousness accomplishes everything. It is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. See F.W.27 and T.M.92.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

He does not overcome for us. Overcome what? Sin, of course. Jesus became sanctified to show us how to become sanctified. He does not sanctify us by downloading righteousness into us, that is our job.

Jesus did indeed overcome for us.

We then receive that victory through the ministration of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God.

If one thinks that they can manufacture obedience without the direct agency of the Holy Spirit, they are a Pharisee.

Where we get confused is at the level of co-operation.

Our will is used to receive Gods promises.

Not to carry out Gods promises.

Mark :-)

Excellet! Well said Mark.

"Although we have no merit in ourselves, in the great goodness and love of God we are rewarded as if the merit were our own. When we have done all the good we can possibly do, we are still unprofitable servants. We have done only what was our duty. What we have accomplished has been wrought solely through the grace of Christ, and no reward is due to us from God on the ground of our merit. But through the merit of our Saviour, every promise that God has made will be fulfilled, and every man will be rewarded according to his deeds." {RH, June 27, 1893 par. 15}

[pnattmbtc]

I don't understand how one would read "blood of Christ" as "merits of Christ." It seems clear to me that "blood" signifies "life." So the "blood of Christ" signified His life which was given for us. That life continues to exist, so Paul can say "much more shall we be saved by His life" (Romans 5:10).

Here is how one SDA pioneer put it:

Quote:

What is the blood? Gen. 9:4 “But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.” What is the blood?—The life. Another text. Lev. 7:26 “Moreover ye shall eat no manner of blood, whether it be of fowl or of beast, in any of your dwellings.” Again in Deut. 12:23: “Only be sure that thou eat not the blood; for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh.” This is the Lord interpreting the law. Lev. 17:11: “For the life of the flesh is in the flood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood.”

The life is the blood. This is the Bible interpretation; and we will let it interpret itself. Then when we read that “the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sin,” it does not mean that by some magic-charm process or incantation, it enables him to count us as cleansed. The whole living gospel was brought forth there in the sanctuary as clearly as it is here in the New Testament, and it is just as clearly applied to human lives and human hearts ...

... God gave us His life in His Son that we might have life, and that we might have that life to live on the earth.

I am told that it is a scientific fact that if someone will allow his blood to be taken and transfused into the veins of a poor anemic person, the first thing the blood does is to purge out the poison and sickness, and then to build him up with a new life. New blood has been transfused into that person, and new life is imparted. Do you get the figure? We are saved by transfusing blood. God has opened His mighty heart, and poured out His life in Christ, for our salvation. He has given His life that we might take it and be purified with it, and live on earth by faith. And the life of His Son cleanseth us from all sin. (Fifield GCB 1897 Sermon #2)

[skyblue888]

I agree just as I have stated in one of my posts above that the blood has merits because it was the life of God in His Son that was poured out for us upon Calvary's cross.

"It is by receiving the life for us poured out upon Calvary's cross that we may live the life of holiness. And this life we recdeive by receiving His word and by doing those things which He has commanded. Thus we become one with Him." D.A.660.

And Christ is the Word.

[Twilight]

I agree just as I have stated in one of my posts above that the blood has merits because it was the life of God in His Son that was poured out for us upon Calvary's cross.

"It is by receiving the life for us poured out upon Calvary's cross that we may live the life of holiness. And this life is in His word." D.A.660.

And Christ is the Word.

Just to clarify my point.

The "merits of Christ" is figurative language.

So is the "blood of Christ" figurative in many respects.

I see the biblical writers using "blood" terminology, the same way later commentators use the idea of "merits of Christ".

Ellen White uses this "merits" in the same manner as the earlier commentators I have come across.

Hope that makes sense. :-)

Mark

[Musicman1228]

Sanctify them in the truth: thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, even so sent I them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. John 17:17-18.

And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?” And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it, and I began to weep loudly because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it. And one of the elders said to me, “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.” Rev.5:2-5.

These two passages are critical to understanding the role of the blood of Jesus Christ in relationship to our salvation and overcoming.

The Rev.5 text shows that a search was made for one who was worthy, one who had conquered, one who was completely sanctified in the truth, and who could then act on behalf of those who's names were written in the sealed scroll. Jesus was able to take the scroll (the book of Life) from the right hand of His Father because He was found worthy.

Jesus told His disciples that He had gone through the sanctification process and conquered sin in order to show them that they could also be successful in going through this process and conquering sin as He did. Jesus is the sinless Son of God and did not need to confess sin for it to be removed. Jesus is shown in the Rev.5 passage as having been found and declared worthy because He had been tested against the righteous standard of His Father. It is this same righteous standard that we are also tested against, which is why we need to be cleansed from sin by His blood. His righteous robe DOES NOT cover our filthy rags, saving us in spite of our sin. This sad misconception will cause most of the world to be lost. The actual fact is that we must wash our own robes clean, Jesus does not wash our robes for us.

Please note that by conquering/overcoming sin Jesus earned the RIGHT to sit with His Father on His Father's throne; this is not a gift of grace. Just as did Jesus we must also earn the RIGHT to sit with Jesus on His throne; this also is not a gift of grace.

The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. Rev.3:21.

The blood of Jesus Christ is worthless to us unless we succeed in completing the process of sanctification, thereby being found worthy before the Heavenly court just as was Jesus; by confessing our sins/lies, having those sins removed from us by the blood of Jesus, which allowed His execution and death to pay the penalty for those sins (which is eternal death), which grants us the RIGHT to sit with Him on His throne because we overcame those sins.

No one will enter the Kingdom of Heaven unless all of their sins have been removed in this manner (those that are sealed into the Kingdom before the Tribulation begins, and the righteous from all the nations that enter the Kingdom during the Great Tribulation). The blood of Jesus does not wash away our sins whether we like it or not.

Without the confession of sin by a humble and contrite heart there can be no sanctification. Without being completely sanctified the sacrifice of Jesus to pay our penalty is meaningless; it won't matter to those who are not completely filled with the truth.

"Sanctify them with the truth, Your word is truth."

[skyblue888]

Mark, the blood that was shed was literal blood which is another way of saying that it was the life of God. That sacrifice has merits because the life that was offered or poured out is of value beyond estimate.

The blood and merits are attached to each other but it is the merits of the blood, of the divine life, of the infinite sacrifice.

If we say that "blood" and "merits" are the same then we have the merits of the merits!!! But that is not what it says. It is the merits of the blood that was shed, the merits of the sacrifice.

Did you not read my post above in which I discuss the significance of the word "merit" in terms of human value vs divine estimate.

sky

[skyblue888]

It is a mystery to me why we have so much difficulty grasping this matter of the merits of Christ. Many ask what His merits are. It is the merits of His sacrifice because that sacrifice is of value beyond estimate. It is meritorirous. So meritorious that we are to hold in abomination all other merits. And now God desires to treat us, not according to our demerits but according to the merits of His Son! The merits of Christ have opened before us the unsearchable riches of His grace. God has deposited all the merits of Jesus Christ into our account. All we need to do is to claim His divine merits continually that we may draw upon God every moment and the whole heavenly treasure is ours.

sky

[Twilight]

Mark, the blood that was shed was literal blood which is another way of saying that it was the life of God. That sacrifice has merits because the life that was offered or poured out is of value beyond estimate.

The blood and merits are attached to each other but it is the merits of the blood, of the divine life, of the infinite sacrifice.

If we say that "blood" and "merits" are the same then we have the merits of the merits!!! But that is not what it says. It is the merits of the blood that was shed, the merits of the sacrifice.

Did you not read my post above in which I discuss the significance of the word "merit" in terms of human value vs divine estimate.

sky

I will try to catch up later, brain is on a go slow today. :-)

Mark

[skyblue888]

Fine Mark.

In the Middle Ages, the worshiper was seeking to gain Heaven (the approval of God) through the merits of his prayers, fasts, gifts and offerings, anything that was considered by the church to be a good deed, even obedience to the commandments of God. So we see that by "merits" it was understood that someone could earn his salvation. All these things were supposed to earn God's favor on account of their merits, their value. But when our eyes are directed to Jesus, to His divine Person, to His sacrifice which is of value beyond estimate, one gets a glimpse of the all-sufficient merits of such a sacrifice and he approaches God solely on the basis of the merits of that sacrifice and God is pleased. Then Christ places His own merits upon the believing sinner and he becomes a partaker of His nature, a nature far above that which Adam and Eve forfeited by transgression for Adam was of the earth, made of dust, but Christ is the second Adam, the Lord from Heaven. 1 Cor.15:47.

sky

"Through the merits of Christ we may find the approval of God."

[pnattmbtc]

I'm new here, so trying to gather if people are basing arguments upon Scripture or the SOP. There seems to be a bit of both.

Here's a statement from the SOP regarding how we are saved, which I believe explains how the blood of Jesus Christ saves us:

Quote:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 176, 177)

[Musicman1228]

There are two elements in salvation that must be reconciled in order to get a clear and truthful picture as to how the blood of Jesus Christ operates, one is the penalty receiver, and the other is the penalty payer.

Confusion has come about because there are many Christians that believe that if they actually do something to affect their salvation then they are denying the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. There is the other side of this coin where a few people say that it is by their own deeds that they are saved. One side claims only grace as the means of salvation, the other claims only deeds as the means or their salvation.

Neither of these is what Jesus Christ taught His disciples, and what is provided by example in the Sanctuary Service in the O.T.

There are two elements that must be reconciled and balanced to find the true picture of how the blood of Christ affects salvation. One is the purpose of the sacrifice, and the other is the responsibility of the sinner.

Most Christians believe that the purpose of the sacrifice is to 'wash away sin' and overcome for the sinner. Is this true?

In the Sanctuary Service as defined in Leviticus the purpose of the blood of the sacrifice was to transfer FORGIVEN sins of the Kingdom (sin that had been confessed to the priest and placed on the sacrifice) to the horns of the Altar in the Holy Place. Once a year the sins that were placed on these horns was transferred by the High Priest to the Goat of Removal. Now this next step is one of the keys to understanding the purpose of the blood. (Most Christians don't have a clue as to the meaning of the Sanctuary Service, which is why there is the misconceptions about what the purpose of the blood is.) The High Priest takes the blood that has the FORGIVEN sins of the Kingdom off of the Horns of the Golden Altar and places it on the head of the Goat of Removal, which is then taken and released alive in the wilderness. This goat IS NOT killed, it IS NOT a sacrifice. These transferred sins are not destroyed (yet), but are sent back to where they came from - the wilderness, AKA the world, where Satan is ruler.

The key is that this process deals ONLY with FORGIVEN sins of the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, not the world. It does not deal with UNFORGIVEN sins.

So here is the bottom line: the role of Jesus Christ is not just that of Sacrifice but also of High Priest. It is the blood of Jesus Christ as sacrifice that takes the confessed/forgiven sins away from the sinner. It is the role of Jesus as the High Priest that sees to it that these FORGIVEN sins are removed from the Kingdom and sent into the world from where they originally came. It is the role of the sinner to CONFESS his/her sins before the Father, who is always faithful and just to forgive those sins, and "cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness". The blood of the sacrifice DOES NOT forgive sins, it is the transfer media whereby those sins are removed first to the Altar and then to the world.

Before sins can be removed from the sinner and transferred first to the Altar and then to the world they must be forgiven. This forgiveness is accomplished by CONFESSION of sin. This entire process is Sanctification. What is the prime agent of the sanctification process? The Words of Jesus Christ, which are truth and life.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1John 1:9.

[wayfinder]

>>The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ.<<

Then obedience is not a gift, but perposeful action on the part of the obedient.

>>The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself.<<

This is sanctification.

[skyblue888]

I'm new here, so trying to gather if people are basing arguments upon Scripture or the SOP. There seems to be a bit of both.

Here's a statement from the SOP regarding how we are saved, which I believe explains how the blood of Jesus Christ saves us:

Quote:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 176, 177)

Comparing this statement with another statement from Patriarchs and Prophest, p.430, we read:

"The lifting up of the brazen serpent was to teach Israel an important lesson. They could not save themselves from the fatal effect of the poison in their wounds. God alone was able to heal them. Yet they were required to show their faith in the provision which He had made. They must look in order to live. It was their faith that was acceptable with God, and by looking upon the serpent their faith was shown. They knew that there was no virtue in the serpent itself, but it was a symbol of Christ; and the necessity of faith in His merits was thus presented to their minds. Heretofore many had brought their offerings to God, and had felt that in so doing they made ample atonement for their sins. They did not rely upon the Redeemer to come, of whom these offerings were only a type. The Lord would now teach them that their sacrifices, in themselves, had no more power or virtue than the serpent of brass, but were, like that, to lead their minds to Christ, the great sin offering.

Thus we read, "The only faith that will benefit us is that which embraces Him as a personal Saviour: which appropriates His merits to ourselves." D.A.347.

sky

[teresaq]

>>The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ.<<

[wayfinder]

By the obedient.

When Adam and Eve were created they were neither obedient nor disobedient it was up to them to choose to be either. They chose disobedience by eating of the forbidden tree. We, like them, are given an oppertunity to be obedient and have eternal life, because of the Lamb of God, Who was slain. When our thoughts and desires are brought into perfect obedience to the will of God this is righteousness/right doing and is the end result of the process of sanctification.

John 17:17

"Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.

To obey God is to know and perform His will. We must abide in His words/teaching and we will know the truth and the truth will set us free (John 8:32)

[teresaq]

We have to overcome the same way he did. By the power of the Holy Spirit. But that is a gift. Without it you couldn't even want to overcome.

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? Rom 2:4

Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Act 5:31

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. Eze 36:26

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? Luk 11:13

i basically agree with you i believe but if i may add to your thought.

we dont even know what true righteousness is. only by studying the life of Christ and submitting to the Holy Spirit do we change into the image of Christ, become righteous, sanctified.

if our view of God, and by extension ourselves, has not changed one iota since we began this walk we are not being sanctified.

[Guest]

I can go along with that.

[wayfinder]

teresaq: You are absolutly right in that. It is only through the work of the Spirit of Truth that we will know the truth and thus participate in and complete the sanctification process. Jesus makes clear that when He leaves, He will not leave us alone, He will send another Helper/Teacher. This Teacher is the Holy Spirit/Spirit of Truth. The truth reveals to us the words of God that we may obey His will.

John 3:19-21

"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

"But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

Joh 14:16

"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;

Joh 14:26

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Joh 15:26

"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,

Joh 16:7

"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

[pnattmbtc]

Neither of these is what Jesus Christ taught His disciples.

What did Jesus teach His disciples?