The Blood is Powerful

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding #274253, you (sky) point out that PP speaks of the people's directions being direct to the merits of Jesus Christ ("the necessity of faith in His merits was thus presented to their minds.") while the DA passage says:

Quote:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul.

So by comparing these two, can we conclude that "faith in His merits" means to respond to the light shining from the cross, which reveals the love of God? The DA passage says if we do not resist this drawing love, we will be saved. So that's what we need to do, isn't it? Respond (or not resist) the drawing love of God revealed by the cross?

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Neither of these is what Jesus Christ taught His disciples.

What did Jesus teach His disciples?

Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.   And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  John 17:17-21.

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:3-5.

And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God.” John 3:19-21.

And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray.   For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. Matt.24:4-5.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. Matt.24:14.

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. Matt.24:34.

[pnattmbtc]

Thanks for the quotes, but how do they fit into the discussion? In particular, how does Jesus teachings fit into the point you were wishing to make? In particular, this:

There are two elements in salvation that must be reconciled in order to get a clear and truthful picture as to how the blood of Jesus Christ operates, one is the penalty receiver, and the other is the penalty payer.

[skyblue888]

Regarding #274253, you (sky) point out that PP speaks of the people's directions being direct to the merits of Jesus Christ ("the necessity of faith in His merits was thus presented to their minds.") while the DA passage says:

Quote:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul.

So by comparing these two, can we conclude that "faith in His merits" means to respond to the light shining from the cross, which reveals the love of God? The DA passage says if we do not resist this drawing love, we will be saved. So that's what we need to do, isn't it? Respond (or not resist) the drawing love of God revealed by the cross?

Yes, should we not respond when we see the light shining from the cross of Calvary, when we realize and appreciate more and more that Jesus was treated according to our demerits that we might be treated according to His merits! (See D.A.25) Does not this, in itself, reveal the woundrous love of God for the human family? "Behold what manner of love!" That He was willing to take the place of the guilty ones by offering Himself to the Father as our substitute and surety in order that He might, through the merits of His sufferings and agony clothe us with the white robe of innocence, is something that moved the whole universe in our behalf. And that by placing His own divine merits upon us, not only does He save us from the thralldom of sin but He makes us partakers of His nature and thus we are elevated in the scales of moral value with God, making us sit with Him at the right hand of the Majesty on High! "All His merits and holiness were open to fallen man, presented as a gift." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.7a, p.357.

Have we not everything to gain (even the whole heavenly treasure) by daily appropriating to ourselves the merits of Jesus Christ, for we have none except as they come through Him. As it is also written, "When we seek to gain heaven (approval of God) through the merits of Christ, the soul makes progress." F.W.94. *parenthesis supplied

sky

*"Take hold by faith of the merits of Christ and the soul-cleansing blood will be applied." F.W.96.

[Musicman1228]

Thanks for the quotes, but how do they fit into the discussion? In particular, how does Jesus teachings fit into the point you were wishing to make? In particular, this:

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

There are two elements in salvation that must be reconciled in order to get a clear and truthful picture as to how the blood of Jesus Christ operates, one is the penalty receiver, and the other is the penalty payer.

I thought that I had explained that in post #274248. I am sorry I was not clear.

To briefly recap; the two elements or conditions for salvation stem from the role of the sacrifice on one side and the role of the sinner on the other. The sinner MUST confess their sin to the priest (in our example this is God) who forgives those sins; the priest then places those forgiven sins on the head of the sacrifice and then kills/executes it, putting the blood in a bowl and carrying it into the holy place to the Altar where the priest puts the blood on the horns of the Altar. The blood of the sacrifice transfers these forgiven sins from the sinner to the Altar via the priest.

Once a year in the case of literal Israel and now in Heaven for spiritual Israel/the Kingdom of Heaven the High Priest (now Jesus Christ) removes the forgiven sins of the Kingdom (individual forgiven sins from the whole Kingdom of Heaven) and will eventually put these sins back on the head of the originator of sin, Satan, who will then be thrown into the Lake of Fire which is the second death-from which there is no return.

Jesus acts as both the blameless sacrifice and the High Priest; as the blameless sacrifice He is innocent of sin, and therefore having been executed unjustly He resurrected Himself-the grave could not hold Him. As the High Priest Jesus acts on behalf of the Kingdom of Heaven in transferring sin from the sinner to the Altar, thereby removing unrighteousness from the sinner. It is then up to the sinner to replace those sins and lies with righteousness and truth through the words and teachings of Jesus Christ. This latter is the process of sanctification.

Sins can be removed from the sinner all day long, but if the sinner does not replace those sins with the truth (through the words of Jesus Christ) then in spite of having their sins removed they will still not be saved because they will not be righteous. The absence of sin in not righteousness. The presence of truth that fills the entire being IS Righteousness. It is being filled with righteousness that is the key to the Kingdom, where ALL must be in order to be saved.

[Musicman1228]

There are only two types of sin; forgiven and unforgiven. Forgiven sin is sin confessed to the Father (God) that is then removed from the individual, transferred via the blood of the sacrifice by the High Priest to a secure location (Altar) and held in reserve until such time as it can be transferred (again by the High Priest) back to the source of sin (Satan).

Unforgiven sin stays in the individual that refused to confess it to the Father.

All sin, both forgiven and unforgiven, will eventually be destroyed along with the being deemed responsible for that sin. This is either Satan who is destroyed with the forgiven sins of the Kingdom of Heaven, or the individual that refused to get rid of their sin, choosing to die with it rather than give it up.

[teresaq]

It is a mystery to me why we have so much difficulty grasping this matter of the merits of Christ. Many ask what His merits are. It is the merits of His sacrifice because that sacrifice is of value beyond estimate. It is meritorirous. So meritorious that we are to hold in abomination all other merits. And now God desires to treat us, not according to our demerits but according to the merits of His Son! The merits of Christ have opened before us the unsearchable riches of His grace. God has deposited all the merits of Jesus Christ into our account. All we need to do is to claim His divine merits continually that we may draw upon God every moment and the whole heavenly treasure is ours.

in some cases it is more about the language used. each has their own language and presents their case in that language.

in other words some are saying the exact same thing from different perspectives using different language.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Thanks for the quotes, but how do they fit into the discussion? In particular, how does Jesus teachings fit into the point you were wishing to make? In particular, this:

[/quote']The sinner MUST confess their sin to the priest (in our example this is God) who forgives those sins; the priest then places those forgiven sins on the head of the sacrifice and then kills/executes it,

you might want to doublecheck on who killed the sacrifice. actually you might want to rethink your whole assumption in that sentence as to what happens and how.

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding #274495, what I'm asking is how what Jesus said fits into what you're saying. I saw what you wrote, but didn't see how the quotes you presented from Jesus Christ fit into this.

Thanks.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

It is a mystery to me why we have so much difficulty grasping this matter of the merits of Christ. Many ask what His merits are. It is the merits of His sacrifice because that sacrifice is of value beyond estimate. It is meritorirous. So meritorious that we are to hold in abomination all other merits. And now God desires to treat us, not according to our demerits but according to the merits of His Son! The merits of Christ have opened before us the unsearchable riches of His grace. God has deposited all the merits of Jesus Christ into our account. All we need to do is to claim His divine merits continually that we may draw upon God every moment and the whole heavenly treasure is ours.

in some cases it is more about the language used. each has their own language and presents their case in that language.

in other words some are saying the exact same thing from different perspectives using different language.

[Musicman1228]

pnattmbtc said, "2.The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God."

Why do you say there is a shining light coming from the cross? For me the cross is the most cruel and evil device of death, and had Israel accepted Jesus as their Messiah the cross would have been entirely unnecessary. Yes, Jesus would still have had to die, but He would have done it as King of Israel, with honor and inside the Temple compound at the Altar of Sacrifice. As it was Israel rejected Him and Satan saw to it that He was taken outside of Jerusalem and tortured horribly before His Father removed His presence thereby executing His son.

Do you know what I see when I look at the cross? NOTHING, because Jesus IS NOT THERE. He is risen, indeed. Alleluja! The resurrection reveals the Love of God.

[Guest]

You fail to see the love that it took to die that way for you. He didn't have to do it, and without that love, he wouldn't have. You should be thanking God that he did.

[pnattmbtc]

Musicman, good question, regarding what light I see shining from the cross. The second quote I cited speaks of how Christ suffered the death that was ours that we might live the life that was his. What is the death that was ours? This was the second death. Christ, in Gethsemanee, would have died, had God not sent an angel to revive him. That Christ tasted the second death is a vital part of the cross.

Let's consider this second death aspect in a bit more detail. In the chapter "Calvary" we're told that "Christ could not see through the portals of the tomb," that hope did not present to Him the resurrection. In other words, Christ felt as if He would be lost forever. But He was determined to go through with His mission, even at this infinite cost to Himself. So great is His love for us, that He values our eternal well being as more important than His own.

Now Jesus Christ was a revelation of God. In Him, we see that God Himself views our eternal well being as more important than His own. That presents an unspeakably beautiful picture of God's character! This revelation of love leads one to repentance. God's humility and self-sacrifice puts me to shame. It stirs within me a desire to join myself to Him, to be like Him, to change, to repent.

[teresaq]

thank you for this response.

when we see what God is really like it shows us-me-how lacking i truly am.

it "lays the glory of man in the dust".

[Guest]

Amen

[skyblue888]

Yes, Amen!

"And it is that faith which works that you want. How does it work? It works by love. What love? Why, the love flashing from the cross of Calvary. It is set up nidway between earth and Heaven, and salvation is gained by looking at this cross. The Father has accepted it and the angel host have come to that cross; and God Himself has bowed in acceptance of the sacrifice. It answers the demand of Heaven and man can be saved through Jesus Christ, if we only have faith in Him. Man is reconciled to God, and God to man, through the full and perfect and entire sacrifice." F.W.72.

"Looking unto Jesus and trusting in His merits we appropriate the blessings of light and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Testimonies, Vol.5, p.744.

sky

[Musicman1228]

Please don't think that I am not grateful and utterly in debt to my Savior for what He did on the cross. He would have done the same if it had been the rack, or being burned at the stake, or being led to the Altar in the court of the Temple in Jerusalem. The cross was just the most cruel death that Satan could envision, and his desire until the very end was for Jesus Christ to save Himself and bow down and worship Satan. Jesus knew what He had to do, and faced death with the calm assurance that His Father loved Him beyond measure; and even though He would die He KNEW that He would be alive again.

The Christan church has been led to believe that the cross was the key to our salvation. Yes, the death of Christ was critical; what was also critical was where that death was accomplished. Jesus knew that His Father would take His life (this is the example of Abraham and Issac). If Israel had declared Jesus to be their King then He would have died in the Temple court yard in Jerusalem right where the Passover lamb was slain. He would have died with the contrite tears of His Kingdom carrying Him to His grave. He would have died at the hand of His Father, in honor, not on some incredibly cruel torture device designed to inflict the most possible pain in the longest possible time.

One of the reasons that Jesus tried so hard to get Israel to acknowledge Him King was because He knew what was in store for Him if they didn't. This is why He wept in the garden, and His sweat was as drops of blood. He was in agony KNOWING what He was facing and yet He did it anyway. Courage is defined as being scared to death and still doing what must be done. We will be facing similar difficulties during the Great Trib so we must develop that same type of courage now through the Holy Spirit.

I find it difficult to believe that Jesus would not have known that He was going to resurrect Himself after the 3 days and 3 nights in the grave. He is after all the Son of God, and being God with God He would certainly have understood the ultimate outcome. If He could not see past the grave then He could not have been the Son of God, because He would not have been omniscient-knowing the end from the beginning.

[teresaq]

musicman,

if you remember in the levitical laws it was not God that took the life of the victim.

it was the one who sinned.

27And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;... 29And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

the morning and evening sacrifices were done by the high priest.

so it would have been either the people themselves, or the high priest who would have killed Jesus. Jesus was the high priest and He did lay down His life. both priest and victim.

Quote:

I find it difficult to believe that Jesus would not have known that He was going to resurrect Himself after the 3 days and 3 nights in the grave.

Jesus did know but at the time that He was going through it He feared that His sacrifice was not enough to cover our sin...as stated so much better than i can:

Quote:

But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father's reconciling face. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. ... {DA 753.1}

Satan with his fierce temptations wrung the heart of Jesus. The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal.

Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God. {DA 753.2}

perhaps we cannot understand because our comprehension is so dull to spiritual realities.

all three give us salvation:

Christs life

Christs death

Christs resurrection

the lack of any one of those would leave us lost.

[Guest]

Amen

[pnattmbtc]

The Christan church has been led to believe that the cross was the key to our salvation. Yes, the death of Christ was critical; what was also critical was where that death was accomplished. Jesus knew that His Father would take His life (this is the example of Abraham and Issac).

[Guest]

That's true, well put.

[Musicman1228]

Teresaq,

I only have a minute. Yes, the sinner took the life of the sacrifice on regular days as a sin offering, not for the morning and evening sacrifice or on the Day of Atonement and Passover. On those days the High Priest took the life of the sacrifice. That is why it was the Father's role to take the life of His Son who was the Passover Lamb on the actual day of the Passover.

(Jesus was executed in 30 AD which was the middle or Wednesday year of the final week of years of the 490 years in Dan. 9.)

[teresaq]

Teresaq,

I only have a minute. Yes, the sinner took the life of the sacrifice on regular days as a sin offering, not for the morning and evening sacrifice or on the Day of Atonement and Passover. On those days the High Priest took the life of the sacrifice. That is why it was the Father's role to take the life of His Son who was the Passover Lamb on the actual day of the Passover.

(Jesus was executed in 30 AD which was the middle or Wednesday year of the final week of years of the 490 years in Dan. 9.)

but the Father did not take the life of the sacrifice in any instance.

so to prove that the Father killed Jesus in any form then there needs to be an example in the levitical system that foreshadowed Christ.

do you see what i mean?

[pnattmbtc]

The High Priest did not represent the Father, but Christ.

Quote:

As the high priest laid aside his gorgeous pontifical robes, and officiated in the white linen dress of the common priest, so Christ took the form of a servant, and offered sacrifice, Himself the priest, Himself the victim.(DA 25)

This represents the same theme that Scripture does, that Christ gave His life for us:

Quote:

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.(Gal. 2:20)

Quote:

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son.(John 3:16)

The key here is in *giving*. There's only giving, no taking. We can say that Christ gave Himself for us (or gave His life for us, or even to us) and we can say that God gave us His only Son, but nowhere does Scripture say that God took Christ's life.

Who is responsible for Christ's death? Is God? Or we?

[Musicman1228]

On Passover the High Priest took the life of the Passover Lamb. Since Jesus Christ is the Passover Lamb and He did not commit suicide someone else must have killed Him.

Jesus Christ is God. No one can kill God except God. Satan does not have the power to kill God, if he did he would have done that while he was still in Heaven.

Evil men who work for Satan cannot kill Jesus Christ for the same reason.

If you believe that Satan and evil, or sin killed Jesus Christ then you must also believe that Jesus Christ in His human form was NOT GOD.

Jesus being God would have never died of old age, even as a human being. God cannot be killed by anyone less than Himself because God is self existent immortal life. Satan as a created being did not have the power to kill another angel much less the Creator.

The example of Abraham and Issac shows that God would kill his own Son. Issac was young and could have easily run away, but chose to lay down his life on the altar and allow His Father to execute him. He did not resist. This is just as Jesus who laid Himself on the cross, willingly, knowing that at any time He could have chosen to live instead of die.

Yet just because Jesus Christ laid Himself down to die He DID NOT kill Himself, that is a ludicrous thought. No one in Heaven or on earth other than God the Father had the power to kill Him because Jesus Christ IS God. He told Moses the His name is I AM.

So in spite of what "inspiration" says God was required to execute His Son according to His own Law because the penalty for disobedience to God was death and had to be paid, this payment could only be done on behalf of the one who disobeyed by the being that had been disobeyed. Had anyone other than God the Father killed His Son the death of Jesus would have not fulfilled the Law, and would not have accomplished our salvation.

(The Passover lamb was killed by command of God in order to save the first born of the Kingdom of Heaven. See Ex. 12 for details.)