The Blood is Powerful

[Guest]

What's to reconcile? He made the coats, He called out to them. They hid themselves from his presence. That dosn't contradict what she said.

[teresaq]

so you see God as in one corner, so to speak, and adam and eve at a distance some place else?

but it is more about reconciling than "contradicting", dont you think?

this would reconcile the statements, wouldnt it?

Quote:

Man was still cut off from direct approach to his Creator, but God would communicate with him through Christ and angels. {PP 67.2}

[phkrause]

Good post teresaq, didn't Cain kill his brother Abel because of that reason. He thought God liked his brothers offering or sacrifice better than his?

pk

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Anything specific that seemed lacking in scriptural basis? It seemed much of the post was pointing out that there is a lot which Scripture doesn't say, and he was making suggestions which I thought, for the most part, made sense. I had thought the point about Cain's offering vegetables was possible before he wrote the post, and think that argument was sound. One point I think it particularly well taken, and that is that people read things into what was written in hind sight. He looked to be trying to stay true to the text. The only thing I saw at first glance that looked wrong was the comments about a covenant not being unilateral. Did you see anything that didn't look right?

Another thing I'll mention, which was just alluded to, is that a fine example of reading things into the sacrificial offerings is the idea of paying a penalty. I don't think there's any evidence that the Jews, or any of their contemporaries, thought in these terms. The first I'm aware of this idea being expressed was by Calvin.

well, being a person who comes from logic, tho others might disagree, and knowing that because i do not understand much given us from inspiration that doesnt make inspiration wrong....but means i am spiritually undeveloped....

Quote:

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. [/quote']so, we have God committing the first killing? and for a "good reason"??

certainly the Lord God could have made clothes for them without killing some poor innocent victim!!

or is this evidence that Christ explained the sacrificial system to adam who slew the first sacrifice in faith looking forward to the coming Redeemer? which Redeemer then handmade clothes for them from those skins. i mean if the LORD God is standing there making clothes for them-which is absolutely awesome and has not been addressed-does it not stand to reason He would also be talking to them, explaining the consequences of their actions and the remedy needed?

that as ugly and horrible as the sacrificial system was, those who sought God understood the significance and meaning of those sacrifices. it was to keep in mind the coming Redeemer to our dull, sin-deadened minds, so prone to forget and wander.

ill continue with my thoughts on cain and able later. waiting to see if there is "rebuttal".

Who said that God had to kill to give Adam and Eve skins to wear? And even if He did, is that not His right as Creator? I believe that there were plenty of dead animals outside of the Garden that God could use, because outside the Garden there already existed death.

If my understanding is correct then death existed in the world from Creation. If God created humanity/the nations on the sixth day of Creation did He create them righteous and immortal or did He create them neutral and mortal? If they were immortal and only two then why the need for a source for immortality near them? If they were immortal then how would Adam and Eve known what it meant to be killed if they disobeyed? Were Adam and Eve created immortal? If so then why was the Tree of Life in the Garden, and why were they prevented from getting to it after they sinned?

It is my understanding that the nations were created on day 6 of creation (Gen.1:26-27)(the word for man-Strong's 120 means mankind); they were created mortal and they were neither righteous or unrighteous, they merely were.

God sent angels (watchers) under a chief angel (Lucifer) to train them in the ways of righteousness, and everything else they would need to exist and grow in knowledge and understanding (anecdotal evidence from Job, the book of Enoch, and the Sumerian cuneform tablets). At some point God would have had the angels tell these nations about Himself, but before that could happen Lucifer turned Satan usurped the role of creator by telling the nations that He was their creator, thus deceiving them (Is.14). The nations of the world believed this lie as if it was the truth.(This paragraph is speculative but plausible, given the sited sources.)

Adam and Eve were created by God as the Kingdom of Heaven to tell the world the truth about who really was their Creator and that this angelic being that claimed to be their god was a liar, but before they could even begin their training in righteousness and how to accomplish this task Satan tempted them to disobey God, thus handing the world over to the prince of Darkness.

When Adam and Eve were ejected from the Garden they would have had no idea how to survive on the outside, so God helped them along until they became accustomed to their new environment. This would include God providing them with garments, shelter, food and water. Still, it must have been quite a shock to them.

The remedy of a sacrifice would not have been needed had Adam and Eve not disobeyed. There is absolutely no Scriptural evidence that God spoke with them about anything involving a blood sacrifice to pay their penalty. I'll grant that it is possible that this took place but there is no evidence from Scripture that God told them to perform any rituals or sacrifices. The first we even hear of offerings is in Ch.4 with Cain and Able and this is not shown as a do it or die type of offering. A more complete explanation of this is in the Blood is Powerful thread #276832.

I personally have no doubt that God would have explained to Adam and Eve the reason that He did not execute them on the very day they disobeyed; that they were under a sentence of death and that penalty would have to be paid, and that He would pay it. But this knowledge was not translated into the ritual of the Sanctuary Service until the children of Israel were removed from Egypt to Sinai, where God spoke these things to Moses. This was thousands of years later.

[Guest]

I was going to agree with you, and then I got to the second sentence.

From there on it's nothing but a bunch of what ifs, made up in somebody's head. With absolutely no scriptural support.

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding post #277102, the word for "man" is "Adam." It is "Adam" which is, at times, translated "mankind." Because all man came from Adam, mankind is represented by "Adam."

I'm not understanding your nations theory. How did these people come into existence? Were they created from the earth, God breathing life into them as He did for Adam, or by some other means.

Quote:

The remedy of a sacrifice would not have been needed had Adam and Eve not disobeyed. There is absolutely no Scriptural evidence that God spoke with them about anything involving a blood sacrifice to pay their penalty.

Or to anyone.

Quote:

I'll grant that it is possible that this took place but there is no evidence from Scripture that God told them to perform any rituals or sacrifices. The first we even hear of offerings is in Ch.4 with Cain and Able and this is not shown as a do it or die type of offering. A more complete explanation of this is in the Blood is Powerful thread #276832.

I personally have no doubt that God would have explained to Adam and Eve the reason that He did not execute them on the very day they disobeyed; that they were under a sentence of death and that penalty would have to be paid, and that He would pay it.

There's nothing in Scripture that says God would execute Adam or Eve, or that they were under a sentence of death, or that a penalty would have to be paid.

Quote:

But this knowledge was not translated into the ritual of the Sanctuary Service until the children of Israel were removed from Egypt to Sinai, where God spoke these things to Moses. This was thousands of years later.

You've got an interesting mix here in terms of the way you explain Scripture. On the one hand, it draws from observations of higher criticism, which I don't have any problem with of itself (Like any other interpretation of Scripture, there are good things and bad things). But on the other you draw from tradition which has nothing to do with the methodology you were drawing from. For example, the idea that you mentioned in regards to God's having created nations is very liberal (in the sense of liberal theology) whereas your ideas in regards to "penalty" and the sanctuary service utilize a completely different methodology. That is, the sources from which you draw the idea that God created nations would never suggest that the sanctuary services taught that God paid a penalty so that He wouldn't have to execute those who performed the rituals. This idea of "penalty" didn't exist for many thousands of years after the sanctuary services. Not until Calvin, as far as I'm aware. (one could argue that Anselm spoke of this idea, but his idea wasn't one of "penalty" but of debt and honor).

[wayfinder]

Genesis (Septuagint)

1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind, quadrupeds and reptiles and wild beasts of the earth according to their kind, and it was so.

1:25 And God made the wild beasts of the earth according to their kind, and cattle according to their kind, and all the reptiles of the earth according to their kind, and God saw that they were good.

1:26 And God said, Let us make man according to our image and likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the flying creatures of heaven, and over the cattle and all the earth, and over all the reptiles that creep on the earth.

1:27 And God made man, according to the image of God he made him, male and female he made them.

1:28 And God blessed them, saying, Increase and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the seas and flying creatures of heaven, and all the cattle and all the earth, and all the reptiles that creep on the earth.

1:29 And God said, Behold I have given to you every seed-bearing herb sowing seed which is upon all the earth, and every tree which has in itself the fruit of seed that is sown, to you it shall be for food.

1:30 And to all the wild beasts of the earth, and to all the flying creatures of heaven, and to every reptile creeping on the earth, which has in itself the breath of life, even every green plant for food; and it was so.

1:31 And God saw all the things that he had made, and, behold, they were very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

The translators of the Septuagint into English make an interesting case for two creations, although I don't think they did it on purpose. First, the animals created on the sixth day contain reptiles and in chapter two no reptiles. On the fifth day flying creatures in chapter one and in chapter two birds. I understand that the Hebrew words for beasts are the same whether reptile or mammal. The translators also use "the" (singular) before Adama in chapter two, in chapter one the adama (mankind) is male and female (them).

It is a far stretch to make a case for all races coming from a unique breeding pair (Adam and Eve). With the information in Genesis chap. one and two, a good case can be made for the probability of two creations, the first during seven literal days and the creation of flying creatures (pterosaurs) and reptiles (dinosaurs) and the races of mankind with their unique characteristics to live in the areas of the earth where they were created, God designed mankind to live in their environment.

Genesis (Septuagint)

2:7 And God formed the man [of] dust of the earth, and breathed upon his face the breath of life, and the man became a living soul.

2:8 And God planted a garden eastward in Edem, and placed there the man whom he had formed.

2:9 And God made to spring up also out of the earth every tree beautiful to the eye and good for food, and the tree of life in the midst of the garden, and the tree of learning the knowledge of good and evil.

In chapter one no mention of a garden, tree of life, or tree of learning the knowledge of good and evil. The man is not called a male, but a man.

Genesis (Septuagint)

2:19 And God formed yet farther out of the earth all the wild beasts of the field, and all the birds of the sky, and he brought them to Adam, to see what he would call them, and whatever Adam called any living creature, that was the name of it.

This verse clearly indicates that these beasts were formed after the formation of the man and after he was placed in the garden. So these beasts were formed out of the earth in the garden and were brought before the man to see what he would call them. Clearly when these beasts were named there was no other person with Adam. The males and females were formed out of the earth, but woman was fashoned from Adam's rib. She was called woman because she was taken out of the man. In chapter one the males and females were the final act of creation before the seventh day rest.

This is just a start, but I don't want to write a thesis here.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

well, being a person who comes from logic, tho others might disagree, and knowing that because i do not understand much given us from inspiration that doesnt make inspiration wrong....but means i am spiritually undeveloped....

Quote:

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

so, we have God committing the first killing? and for a "good reason"??

certainly the Lord God could have made clothes for them without killing some poor innocent victim!!

or is this evidence that Christ explained the sacrificial system to adam who slew the first sacrifice in faith looking forward to the coming Redeemer? which Redeemer then handmade clothes for them from those skins. i mean if the LORD God is standing there making clothes for them-which is absolutely awesome and has not been addressed-does it not stand to reason He would also be talking to them, explaining the consequences of their actions and the remedy needed?

that as ugly and horrible as the sacrificial system was, those who sought God understood the significance and meaning of those sacrifices. it was to keep in mind the coming Redeemer to our dull, sin-deadened minds, so prone to forget and wander.

ill continue with my thoughts on cain and able later. waiting to see if there is "rebuttal". [/quote']

Who said that God had to kill to give Adam and Eve skins to wear? And even if He did, is that not His right as Creator? ...

well, any and everything is His right. but is that His character?

Exo 23:21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

Quote:

H8034

שׁם

shêm

shame

A primitive word (perhaps rather from H7760 through the idea of definite and conspicuous position; compare H8064); an appellation, as a mark or memorial of individuality; by implication honor, authority, character: - + base, [in-] fame [-ous], name (-d), renown, report.

Quote:

H8034

Strongs #8034: AHLB#: 1473-A (N)

Breathe co: Breath ab: Desolate: The wind, or breath, of someone or something is its character.

Breath ab: Desolate: Hebrew names are words given to describe character.

I. Breath: The breath of a man is character, what makes one what he is. The name of an individual is more than an identifier but descriptive of his character or breath.

2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

1Ki 8:29 That thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, even toward the place of which thou hast said, My name shall be there: that thou mayest hearken unto the prayer which thy servant shall make toward this place.

2Ki 23:27 And the LORD said, I will remove Judah also out of my sight, as I have removed Israel, and will cast off this city Jerusalem which I have chosen, and the house of which I said, My name shall be there.

Psa 89:24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

i cant imagine God killing an animal for its skins any more than i can imagine Him coming down and hunting us as we do animals, and call it "sport".

[Musicman1228]

After the fall God could no longer communicate face to face with them.

Ever since Adam's sin, the human race had been cut off from direct communion with God {DA 116.2}

But by transgression the human family was cut off from learning of God through direct communion and, to a great degree, through His works. . . .{CTr 19.2}

In the course of time Cain brought to the LORD an offering of the fruit of the ground, and Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and his offering, but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. Gen.4:3-4.

Regard-strong's 8159, sha'ah-look upon, inspect, consider, regard, have respect.

The implication here is that Cain and Abel brought their offerings and God looked at them and accepted on and rejected the other. This implies a face to face event.

Then Cain went away from the presence of the LORD and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden. Gen.4:16,

This verse again implies that the LORD was present where the family of Adam and Eve lived and Cain went out from that presence. Again my understanding is that God was present with them and dealt with them face to face.

After the murder of Abel God and Cain had words with each other, again implying a 'looking upon', sha'ah type of event. If God was present with Adam's family and they had this kind of face to face experience with God it would make me wonder about Cain's anger management skills, and the ability of Satan to affect an outcome such as this in the presence of the LORD. Why didn't God stop the murder? Free will trumps everything including life, and that shows God's commitment to it.

[Ted Oplinger]

Who said that God had to kill to give Adam and Eve skins to wear? And even if He did, is that not His right as Creator? I believe that there were plenty of dead animals outside of the Garden that God could use, because outside the Garden there already existed death.

If my understanding is correct then death existed in the world from Creation. If God created humanity/the nations on the sixth day of Creation did He create them righteous and immortal or did He create them neutral and mortal? If they were immortal and only two then why the need for a source for immortality near them? If they were immortal then how would Adam and Eve known what it meant to be killed if they disobeyed? Were Adam and Eve created immortal? If so then why was the Tree of Life in the Garden, and why were they prevented from getting to it after they sinned?

Like Richard...I'l agree with the first sentence...but for reasons much, much more different than you indicate with your subsequent reasoning.

For you to state there were "plenty of dead animals outside Eden" is to imply death is not a direct consequence of the introduction of sin to this world.

I would call upon you to re-read the account of the Fall again, this time from the standpoint of having never seen death, never witnessed a death.

Could it be that Satan believed in his heart he was telling the truth in telling Eve God was full of hot air in telling her she would die the day she ate of the forbidden fruit...because he, nor any of the angelic host, had died for their sins in rebelling against God's government. He had never witnessed anything "die" due to sin. Why should he, or Eve, believe it?

Then came Eve bringing the fruit to Adam. Eve hadn't died that moment she sinned. Was God telling the truth?

According to the Creation account, everything was good in all creation, and there was nothing to mar it. Death couldn't have been present, or God could not pronounce it all "good".

And when God gave Adam and Eve skins for garments...these skins most likely came from the first sacrifice for sins. God may have provided the knife, but it is the sinner who draws the knife across the throat of the sacrifice, not God. No doubt that Adam and Eve were horrified to see what death really was, as an innocent animal full of life now lay lifeless at their feet. Only then did death enter into the world, as Adam and Eve then realized what would soon encompass them eventually.

Finally, animals dead of themselves (as in died from predatory or unknown causes) were marked as unclean by God - not to be touched or used for anything of man's benefit.

[Ted Oplinger]

As far as conversation with God...even Cain is listed as being able to talk to God as face-to-face, after his sacrifice was rejected by God, even.

God loved Cain tremendously. Cain turned his back on God, then murdered his brother over the subject.

[teresaq]

...For you to state there were "plenty of dead animals outside Eden" is to imply death is not a direct consequence of the introduction of sin to this world.

I would call upon you to re-read the account of the Fall again, this time from the standpoint of having never seen death, never witnessed a death.

Could it be that Satan believed in his heart he was telling the truth in telling Eve God was full of hot air in telling her she would die the day she ate of the forbidden fruit...because he, nor any of the angelic host, had died for their sins in rebelling against God's government. He had never witnessed anything "die" due to sin. Why should he, or Eve, believe it?

Then came Eve bringing the fruit to Adam. Eve hadn't died that moment she sinned. Was God telling the truth?

According to the Creation account, everything was good in all creation, and there was nothing to mar it. Death couldn't have been present, or God could not pronounce it all "good".

And when God gave Adam and Eve skins for garments...these skins most likely came from the first sacrifice for sins. God may have provided the knife, but it is the sinner who draws the knife across the throat of the sacrifice, not God. No doubt that Adam and Eve were horrified to see what death really was, as an innocent animal full of life now lay lifeless at their feet. Only then did death enter into the world, as Adam and Eve then realized what would soon encompass them eventually.

Finally, animals dead of themselves (as in died from predatory or unknown causes) were marked as unclean by God - not to be touched or used for anything of man's benefit.

thank you for making it so real and understandable. that was put together very well in my opinion. :smile: its a keeper for my files.

[Musicman1228]

If Adam and Ever were created immortal then why did God put the Tree of Life in the Garden?

[Dr. Rich]

RH wrote: "After the fall God could no longer communicate face to face with them. Ever since Adam's sin, the human race had been cut off from direct communion with God {DA 116.2} But by transgression the human family was cut off from learning of God through direct communion and, to a great degree, through His works. . . .{CTr 19.2}"

Questions Richard: (a) Can you tell me what the "FALL" was? When did this happen? ( Can you tell me how did God communicate with Adam and Eve when they tried to hide? © Can you tell me how God communicated with Cain before Cain killed his brother? (d) How about the same for when God talked to Enoch and Noah and Abram?