Is the Adventist Church Really Pro-life?

[Nic Samojluk]

Ok Doug, but I'm afraid if I don't at least say something to warn you, then your blood may be on my hands.

Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Eze 3:17,18

Richard,

I am glad you cited this passge from Scripture. It accurately describes the sacred duty of the SDA Church. In spite of this, some Adventists have been deceived into believing that the Adventist Church should be silent on abortion. Why is this so?

Because back in 1970 when our Castle Memorial Hospital in Hawaii was faced with the issue of offering ELECTIVE abortions to their patients, the then leaders of the church thought that it was more pragmatic to compromise on this moral issue instead of facing the risk of having to close our hospital. This is all documented in our church literature and I can provide the references if needed.

[phkrause]

A Statement I would like to make is this, anyone who has had an abortion is more than welcome on ClubAdventist.com without any condemnation or judgement.

pk

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

Not sure if your being serious or not...

pk

Well, my brother did say that to his wife. That is true. But he was joking with her. Although she was not amused.

I can imagine that wouldn't go over real big.

pk

[Nic Samojluk]

I don't like anything about abortion; and I cannot imagine any woman who does either. But if a woman does choose this option; I'll go with the Church's stated "redemptive approach" every time. No woman should have to suffer through the condemnation so often heaped upon them for making a decision that others do not approve of.

Overaged,

Please, explain what is redemptive about killing an innocent human being! Giving the baby for adoption would be clearly redemptive; but killing an innocent child for the crime of his/her parents? Redemptive? Can you give us your definition of redemptive? Would any of us chooose that kind of redemption for ourselves? Being dismembered or poisoned? Redemptive? Jesus said: "I have come that you might have life"--not death!

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

A Statement I would like to make is this, anyone who has had an abortion is more than welcome on ClubAdventist.com without any condemnation or judgement.

One thing I think is very true is that a lot of people, both men and women, that have never been in a crisis pregnancy situation do not have a clue what the girl is going through. That is a big reason I favor keeping abortion legal - at least for the first 12 weeks. When abortion is banned these girls panic and go to a black-market abortionist. When it is legal, we (as Christians) have the opportunity to intervene through crisis pregnancy centers. Mandated pre-abortion counseling (not provided by the abortion provider) can also give girls options so they don't abort.

I know I have done things I later regretted when I was in a panic situation. The vast majority of abortions are performed on girls in panic situations that are not thinking clearly. Certainly we should not be judgmental toward them. Crisis pregnancy centers provide post-abortion counseling for these girls in a non-judgmental way.

Excellent, Excellent post Shane, I think those of us that have mentioned we believe in choice had this in mind. Because there is no doubt that if they make abortion illegal that's exactly what would happen. If I'm not mistaken that is the way it was many years ago, that's why they did make it legal, because to many girl's die because they went for these quick fix abortionist doctors who were just interested in making money.

pk

[Nic Samojluk]

One thing I think is very true is that a lot of people, both men and women, that have never been in a crisis pregnancy situation do not have a clue what the girl is going through. That is a big reason I favor keeping abortion legal - at least for the first 12 weeks. When abortion is banned these girls panic and go to a black-market abortionist. When it is legal, we (as Christians) have the opportunity to intervene through crisis pregnancy centers. Mandated pre-abortion counseling (not provided by the abortion provider) can also give girls options so they don't abort.

I know I have done things I later regretted when I was in a panic situation. The vast majority of abortions are performed on girls in panic situations that are not thinking clearly. Certainly we should not be judgmental toward them. Crisis pregnancy centers provide post-abortion counseling for these girls in a non-judgmental way.

Shane,

Would you extend the same kind of leniency to other morally prohibited acts in the Decalogue like stealing, for example. I know of several individuals who were in a panick situation and decided to misappropriate investors' funds. One of them moved to another country to avoid justice and later committed suicide.

If not, then tell me why not. Do you consider that stealing someone's money is more serious than stealing someone's life?

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

i am also trying to bring out, for consideration, what ellen white has to say about bringing children into this world. since she does not state specifically that such children should be aborted, neither will i.

Then it is essentially irrelevant to the discussion of abortion.

Yes, indeed. Totally irrelevant!

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: there buster

Quote:

i am also trying to bring out, for consideration, what ellen white has to say about bringing children into this world. since she does not state specifically that such children should be aborted, neither will i.

Then it is essentially irrelevant to the discussion of abortion.

Yes, indeed. Totally irrelevant!

Absolutely so....

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: karl

Are you seriously saying that you cannot see the huge difference I am pointing out above between deliberately killing a baby who, if left alone, would gradually become more independent and self-sustaining, versus the pulling of the plug on a terminal person who, if left alone, will quickly die on his/her own? Can you seriously not see the difference?

I realize that we're all terminal, but there's a huge difference in the imminence of that terminality. We're talking about the opposite ends of life.

meanwhile more children are sold into prostitution.

more children die slow, painful deaths of starvation.

more children are living on the streets surviving the best they can.

more infants and girls are raped because men believe sex with a virgen will cure aids.

thats just the tip of the iceberg.

Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

im not going to address any more of these meaningless posts in light of what is truly important.

So because of all those dangers we should kill them first? With that kind of reasoning, I think you are right not to comment anymore. Go take care of the truly important things.

And about those texts you quoted, I don't see what they have to do with abortion. I didn't see one that says: "I was in danger, so you snuffed out my life".

[SivartM]

This thread is 76 pages long.

Conclusion: Please do not kill babies. Thank you. God loves you.

How's that?

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

5) Christians acknowledge as first and foremost their accountability to God. They seek balance between the exercise of individual liberty and their accountability to the faith community and the larger society and its laws. They make their choices according to scripture and the laws of God rather than the norms of society. Therefore, any attempts to coerce women either to remain pregnant or to terminate pregnancy should be rejected as infringements of personal freedom.

Overaged,

My view is that a women who “make their choices according to scripture” will choose a redemptive way to deal with an unwanted pregnancy: ADOPTION.

Now, when a woman had made the wrong choice, it is the duty of the church to suggest that she ask for forgiveness because God is loving and merciful. We all have made wrong choices, and when we repent and ask for forgiveness, we enjoy the full embrace of God’s love.

Now my question to you: How can a woman who has made the wrong choice-death for her unborn child—repent and seek forgiveness, if the church is telling her that abortion is no big thing under certain circumstances like rape, incest, when the female is a minor, and even when the woman claims that her mental health—she is depressed—is being affected?

[Guest]

This thread is 76 pages long.

Conclusion: Please do not kill babies. Thank you. God loves you.

How's that?

My photography thread is 545 pages, so far. We're just getting started here.

And yes, please don't kill the babies.

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

that would be a matter of personal judgment, wouldnt it?

Actually, no. If abortion is an acceptable remedy for the problem, then it would be relevant. If abortion is not an acceptable remedy, then it is not relevant.

It's a logical question, not a judgment question.

For example, we no longer have debtor's prisons. Prison is not an acceptable remedy for debt. Therefore, discussing prison and prison conditions, no matter how worthwhile for its own sake, is irrelevant to the discussion of the crime of going into debt.

Sending people to Mars for the 'crime' of bringing some children into the world is not practical or feasible. So it is also irrelevant to this discussion.

Using a quote from EGW in a discussion implies that it has some relevance to the discussion. But since neither you nor she claims abortion to be an acceptable remedy for the problem she mentions, it is irrelevant to the discussion.

Most likely, her remedy would have been abstinence. Certainly, it would have been in line with the reasoning she's using. But to use it to justify abortion is to do violence to the text, and to logic.

Excellent response and superb reasoning. The logic of your argument is unassailable!

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

this is neither what i, nor she, said. she didnt say abortion was an "acceptable" solution, neither did she say it wasnt an "acceptable" solution. it would appear, at least it does to me, that a woman finding herself pregnant would have to decide based on the counsel given from the Lord.

Any responsible exegete would have to inquire whether the person actually writing "the counsel given from the Lord," gave any indication that abortion would be an appropriate response. Without that information, using that counsel to justify that action would be doing violence to the source.

Good and logical reasoning!

[Nic Samojluk]

Concerning pregnancy, EGW wrote:

Quote:

Women who possess principle and who are well instructed will not depart from simplicity of diet at this time [pregnancy] of all others. They will consider that another life is dependent upon them and will be careful in all their habits, and especially in diet.--2T 382

So, we have this interesting situation:

Pregnant women should consider that "another life is dependent upon them," and should be "careful in all their habits," while at the same time considering whether abortion would be appropriate.

Yes, indeed. I see no logical way to try to use Ellen White to justify the killing of the unborn. If Ellen White was so concerned about the pregnant woman's and her baby's well being, it would totally incongruous to suggest that she would have ever considered that abortion was a morally acceptable solution to an unwanted pregnancy.

[Dr. Shane]

Shane,

Would you extend the same kind of leniency to other morally prohibited acts in the Decalogue like stealing, for example.

I do think a judge should be more lenient on someone that steals in order to feed his or her family or pay their rent. And I think many judges do show leniency in those situations. However that is not comparable to the panic a girl deals with in a crisis pregnancy.

A better comparison is a man in a boat being swept away in the current of a waterfall. In his panic he throws a rope to shore and trespasses on someone's property. I would not expect such a person to be prosecuted for trespassing.

I am not comparing killing the unborn child to trespassing. I am comparing the panic of a girl in a crisis pregnancy with the panic of a person about to go over a waterfall.

[karl]

This thread is 76 pages long.

Conclusion: Please do not kill babies. Thank you. God loves you.

How's that?

Yes, SivartM.

Good synopsis.

PLEASE!!! DON'T DO IT!!!

[olger]

Sivart be sounding good.

oG

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Nic

If the Sabbath is attacked, the church reacts in a violent manner; if smoking is defended, the church goes into a tail spin; nevertheless, when fifty million of innocent babies are butchered, the church defends the right to choose, and anyone who dares to sound the alarm becomes an unforgiving, judgemental, and unchristian idividual with no right to speak on the subject.

non sequitor

You seem to like that latin term, but I don't think Nic was trying to present the statement you quoted as a sequitur (note the spelling.) He was making a contrast. A contrast is quite different from a sequitur. A sequitur might be: "If all swans are white, then your swan must be white." It is a thought that can be derived or deduced or that follows from the preceding thought.

[Nic Samojluk]

The more I think about it; the more I appreciate the Church's position on this. It does not really come right out and support abortion; our leaders are, I am sure, acutely aware of all the pros and cons. But it does come out heavily in favor of supporting the women on either side of the fence. That is something that many have used against the Church; but for very different reasons than "abortion."

Overaged,

Yes, the church needs to be compassionate. How about some compassion for the victim of abortion? When a woman is faced with an unwanted pregnancy the duty of the church is to encourage her to show compassion for the baby she is about to kill; which, unfortunately, is her legal but nor her moral right.

This is different from the duty of the church following abortion. Then, the duty of the church is to lead the woman to repentance and forgiveness. Is this terribly complex? It is God’s way of dealing with sin. Jesus said to the adulterous woman: Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more. The church quite often says: Neither do I condemn you, and stops there. In this the church has failed in its sacred mission. There is no forgiveness without repentance!

[Nic Samojluk]

God reveals which choice is right and which choice is wrong so that we can choose the right choice. He then alerts us to the inevitable consequence of making the wrong choice while at the same time guaranteeing us the power to carry thru on the right choice. Do you?

Good thinking! Excellent post!

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

meanwhile more children are sold into prostitution.

more children die slow, painful deaths of starvation.

more children are living on the streets surviving the best they can.

more infants and girls are raped because men believe sex with a virgen will cure aids.

thats just the tip of the iceberg.

Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Go take care of the truly important things.

are you agreeing they are the "truly important things" or denying it?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

God reveals which choice is right and which choice is wrong so that we can choose the right choice. He then alerts us to the inevitable consequence of making the wrong choice while at the same time guaranteeing us the power to carry thru on the right choice.

Good thinking! Excellent post!

I keep saying I agree with this.

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

Ok Doug, but I'm afraid if I don't at least say something to warn you, then your blood may be on my hands.

Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Eze 3:17,18

Quote:

That sounds rather suspiciously judgmental, Richard.Suggesting that my choice may exclude me from heaven? My church believes in choice. And until you've been in my position you have no right to tell me that it's wrong to smoke cigarettes!! The church supports me on that,doesn't it?

P.S. Doesn't an intervention violate the principles of choice? Don't the abortion guidelines forbid "coercion"?

OK, gentlemen. Let me know when you decide to stop using irony!

Actually, I must admit that I do enjoy good irony once in a while in order to break the monotony.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

A Statement I would like to make is this, anyone who has had an abortion is more than welcome on ClubAdventist.com without any condemnation or judgement.

Stan, what exactly do you mean by "condemnation or judgment"? Has that even been an issue here? Are you trying to suggest that if someone here calls abortion a sin they are being condemning or judgmental? Or is this more of a preventative strike? I just don't see ANYONE on this thread who opposes abortion who does not long for the redemption and healing of every one who has been responsible for an abortion.

You stole my thinking! Excellent rebutt!