Is the Adventist Church Really Pro-life?

[teresaq]

the following allegory I wrote a few years ago: “A Stigmata Case in Loma Linda”

you use an interesting choice of words quite regularly nic.

[Nic Samojluk]

I understand the church's position on abortion very well too. Being a Dr. gives no one any advantage in judging Biblical truths or understanding moral principles. There are thousands of Dr.'s (J.H.Kellogg for one)who would find Nan's view of the unborn morally detestable.I don't think that anyone posting here would disagree that the church is pro-choice. It's just that some love it and some of us find it in violation of the candid opinions of our founders,contrary to the basic laws of nature, diametrically opposed to our "health message",and offensive to the revealed will of Almighty God.And that's not to mention the lack of logic and reason of their arguments.

Doug,

Wow! If I had not seen your name attached to this posting I would have thought it was the direct result of divine inspiration. Well, perhaps it is the fulfillment of Joel 2: 28.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

Stan, what exactly do you mean by "condemnation or judgment"? Has that even been an issue here? Are you trying to suggest that if someone here calls abortion a sin they are being condemning or judgmental? Or is this more of a preventative strike? I just don't see ANYONE on this thread who opposes abortion who does not long for the redemption and healing of every one who has been responsible for an abortion. [/quote']

You stole my thinking! Excellent rebutt!

What a farce. And the word is "rebuttal"... not "rebutt"... another nonprofessional use of terminology.

BTW, Stan Jensen made an Administrative statement here. What is so hard to understand about it?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I understand the church's position on abortion very well too. Being a Dr. gives no one any advantage in judging Biblical truths or understanding moral principles. There are thousands of Dr.'s (J.H.Kellogg for one)who would find Nan's view of the unborn morally detestable.I don't think that anyone posting here would disagree that the church is pro-choice. It's just that some love it and some of us find it in violation of the candid opinions of our founders,contrary to the basic laws of nature, diametrically opposed to our "health message",and offensive to the revealed will of Almighty God.And that's not to mention the lack of logic and reason of their arguments.

And everyone knows J.H. Kellogg was the epitome of Adventist Christian thought!

[Nic Samojluk]

Overaged,You seem quick to make judgments on the hidden motives of the OP yet you agree with his conclusions (that the guidelines are pro-choice).Why is your support of the church's abortion guidelines not a convenient platform for your attempts to discredit the OP?

I have no "ax to grind" and have done much of the same research,and have arrived at the exact same conclusions.These are not misrepresenting the church's position. There is virtually no one living in the real world that doesn't recognize that the guidelines allow abortion for any reason,as long as the church member chooses it.

You write of the "the redemptive approach of the church".Can you name one(1) redemptive program that the church has created to meet those redemptive needs? Don't waste any time trying to identify one cuz there isn't one. Because if abortion is not a sin to be corrected, there is no need for redemption.The church has done nothing to prevent abortion but much to allow it.

There is another unspoken thread that is woven thru this discussion that we who oppose abortion are continually subjected to. We are constantly portrayed as ignorant dupes that really know nothing about abortion and are merely parroting the views of some other ignorant Bible thumper (or the Catholic church) we've heard on TBN.None of us have any actual experience with abortion or the people who are faced with an unwanted pregnancy. And we're really not interested in anything but the unborn baby. Condemning,judgmental,ignorant,hypocritical.

Yet it is ONLY the pro-life community that actually ministers to those who are caught up in this moral morass. Naturally, some of the most outspoken critics of abortion are those who HAVE experienced it for themselves. These,who are so quickly condemned, are the ones at the forefront of the "redemptive" ministry for others who they would try to save from the pain that they've experienced as a result of their "choice".

So while we are used to the constant lies and character assasinations from the secular arena it's still hard to accept when the same attacks come from our "friends".

Doug,

Thanks for coming in my defense and the defense of the victim of abortion who is the most to loose when abortion is chosen: life.

Thanks for reminding Overage that he basically agrees with the conclusion of my research: That the Adventist Church of today is pro-choice instead of pro-life like the church of our forefathers, those who founded the Adventist church.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Go take care of the truly important things.[/quote']are you agreeing they are the "truly important things" or denying it?

I agree those are truly important things, but when you call them "the truly important things" as opposed to what we are talking about here, you are saying in effect, that the life of a baby is not important.

There is no text that says: "Come ye blessed of my Father, for when I was in danger of bad things happening, you snuffed out my life before I could be born.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

are you agreeing they are the "truly important things" or denying it?

I agree those are truly important things' date=' but when you call them "the truly important things" as opposed to what we are talking about here, you are saying in effect, that the life of a baby is not important.

There is no text that says: "Come ye blessed of my Father, for when I was in danger of bad things happening, you snuffed out my life before I could be born. [/quote']meanwhile more children are sold into prostitution.

more children die slow, painful deaths of starvation.

more children are living on the streets surviving the best they can.

more infants and girls are raped because men believe sex with a virgen will cure aids.

thats just the tip of the iceberg.

Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

He will ask us what we did for any of these, tho. when we say we were too busy trying to wipe out abortion i guess we will find out whether that had been on His list or not.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Yet it is ONLY the pro-life community that actually ministers to those who are caught up in this moral morass.

That is not true. There are people who believe in choice who are also concerned and care about the "moral morass"...

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

You stole my thinking! Excellent rebutt!

What a farce. And the word is "rebuttal"... not "rebutt"... another nonprofessional use of terminology.

Actually, rebut is a word. Only one "t". It is a verb and can be used like the verb "jab." Nice jab. Nice rebut.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I know "rebut" is a word. It was not used as a verb. It was used as a noun...it is not used as a noun, according to Dictionary.com. And it was spelled wrong by Nic, not me.

[Guest]

He will ask us what we did for any of these, tho.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

and He also understands the plight of women with an unexpected pregnancy as well...especially from violent means, i.e. rape or incest. He also understands the feelings that go with having to make a such a difficult choice.

"Neither do I condemn thee..." said Jesus. Abortion is not a sin unless you are convicted that it is IN YOUR OWN LIFE. Don't force your convictions about abortion on to someone unless she asks for your opinion. Pro-lifers say they aren't judging or condemning, but most certainly they are.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Thou shalt not kill is one of the ten commandments.

God ordered the killing of all the Amalekites, INCLUDING INFANTS.

God is a just and merciful God. That's why He's God and we're not.

[Guest]

Has he ordered us to kill babies?

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Doug Yowell

Yet it is ONLY the pro-life community that actually ministers to those who are caught up in this moral morass.

That is not true. There are people who believe in choice who are also concerned and care about the "moral morass"...

RW, Actions speak louder than words. So I'll ask one more time. Name and identify 3 ministries that the pro-choice community has established for the woman in need? Which ministry does the guilt laden woman (or man) go to AFTER the child has been aborted? Which "redemptive" pro-choice ministry does the perfectly healthy unborn go to before the choice is to be made? Or after?

[teresaq]

Has he ordered us to kill babies?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

You missed my point. How about this one? Ecclesiastes 3:3 "A time to kill and a time to heal."

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

Stan, what exactly do you mean by "condemnation or judgment"? Has that even been an issue here? Are you trying to suggest that if someone here calls abortion a sin they are being condemning or judgmental? Or is this more of a preventative strike? I just don't see ANYONE on this thread who opposes abortion who does not long for the redemption and healing of every one who has been responsible for an abortion. [/quote']

You stole my thinking! Excellent rebutt!

Actually, Nic,It wasn't a rebutt ("I like rebutts and I cannot lie"). It was an honest,inquirey. Sorry. Now look at what I've started!!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

That is not true. There are people who believe in choice who are also concerned and care about the "moral morass"...

RW' date=' Actions speak louder than words. So I'll ask one more time. Name and identify 3 ministries that the pro-choice community has established for the woman in need? Which ministry does the guilt laden woman (or man) go to AFTER the child has been aborted? Which "redemptive" pro-choice ministry does the perfectly healthy unborn go to before the choice is to be made? Or after? [/quote']

If you will reflect upon what I wrote, I said there are PEOPLE who believe in choice who are also concerned. I said NOTHING about MINISTRIES. And I don't believe in a "redemptive" ministry for a woman who has had an abortion. If a woman believes she has sinned, she can go straight to the Man upstairs and ask for forgiveness.

[Guest]

I cannot lie about the rebutts either.

[Guest]

These should not have married;

at least,

they should not have brought innocent children into existence

to share their misery,

and hand down their own deficiencies,

with accumulating wretchedness,

from generation to generation,

which is one great cause of the degeneracy of the race. {RH, June 27, 1899 par. 6}

You think Ellen White was advocating abortion here?

[doug yowell]

Quote:

Don't force your convictions about abortion on to someone unless she asks for your opinion.

Yes, that thought would work for many posts!!

When is the first or last time anyone heard of a female out killing abortion DR's. For males it is such a black and white subject, women less so. It would be a total lack of understanding of a women to suggest she does not think long and hard about such a difficult choice.

You probably hadn't noticed,Co, but there are more women who oppose elective abortion than support it so how bout not trying to make this about the insensitivity of men,please.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

there are more women who oppose elective abortion than support it.

Prove it.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

I understand the church's position on abortion very well too. Being a Dr. gives no one any advantage in judging Biblical truths or understanding moral principles. There are thousands of Dr.'s (J.H.Kellogg for one)who would find Nan's view of the unborn morally detestable.I don't think that anyone posting here would disagree that the church is pro-choice. It's just that some love it and some of us find it in violation of the candid opinions of our founders,contrary to the basic laws of nature, diametrically opposed to our "health message",and offensive to the revealed will of Almighty God.And that's not to mention the lack of logic and reason of their arguments.

And everyone knows J.H. Kellogg was the epitome of Adventist Christian thought!

No.Nan is. Dr. Kellogg was merely representitive of the unanimity of Adventist Christian thought on abortion and other health issues.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

ehrhm..