Is the Adventist Church Really Pro-life?

[teresaq]

Quote:

You were not asking for clarification. You knew exactly what I was referring to.

No, I did not. I am still not clear on it. What is the difference between the right to choice and the right to abortion? I grasp the right to privacy. I don't grasp this right to choice.

the right to choice is the right to choose to bring the baby into the world,

or choose not to bring the baby into the world.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

No. Sampling is exactly what it says. It's a sampling of the population. Again, I am referring to a 100% absolute certainty.

My point is that statistically sampling is more accurate than trying to get some kind of 100% count. This is true if we are discussing health issues, political issues, safety issues or any issue at all. So if someone doesn't accept statistical sampling they may as well bow out of a conversation.

The only issue is if the organization doing the statistical sampling is reputable. If it is a trustworthy organization, the statistical sampling will be as good of information as can be collected without having the mind of God.

And my point is that there is no way to get a 100% accurate certainty, which Nic was trying to imply. So were you with your statistical sampling talk.

[Dr. Shane]

A woman's body is private. What do you not understand about that? What she does with her body is her private business between her and God.

This was the view of the Supreme Court 35 years ago. Since then science has taught us so much we really see that abortion isn't just about the woman's body. The fetus actually has its own DNA before the woman even knows she is pregnant. The fetus has its own blood. So the question now isn't so much what the woman can do with *her* body but what she can do with the fetus' body.

Does the right to privacy allow a mother to abuse her child in the privacy of her own home? No, of course not. So why would the same right to privacy allow the same mother to do violence to the child in the privacy of her womb?

The Supreme Court may one day overturn Roe vs. Wade and when that happens abortion is going to go onto the ballot at a state level. Pro-choice groups need to give up this right to abortion argument because it is a losing argument. There is no right to abortion. That doesn't mean it should be illegal. There is no right to meat eating either but no one wants to ban McDonald's.

[Dr. Shane]

And my point is that there is no way to get a 100% accurate certainty, which Nic was trying to imply. So were you.

We don't need it. Statistical sampling is good enough. Our whole society is based on statistical sampling. Manufactures make products based on statistical sampling. Retailers position products in stores based on statistical sampling. Doctors use statistical sampling to treat disease. Engineers use it to design roads, bridges and buildings.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Nic

Such a choice is abhorrent to the Lord.

So Nic Samojluk is now the voice of God.

Yes.and Karl.And Me.And Shane. And Richard. And Tall. And all the evidence that you have rejected.(II Cor.5:18-20)Sometimes God DOES work in mysterious ways.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

My whole issue here is that I will not judge a woman who decides to have an abortion. It is between her and God. Not between her and me or between her and Shane.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

So Nic Samojluk is now the voice of God.

Yes.and Karl.And Me.And Shane. And Richard. And Tall. And all the evidence that you have rejected.(II Cor.5:18-20)Sometimes God DOES work in mysterious ways.

What you wrote borders on heresy. I feel sorry for you.

[Steve Billiter]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Shane,

Thanks for trying; nevertheless the comparison is inappropriate, because a girl about to go over a waterfall is almost sure to loose her life. In the case of pregnancy there is no such risk. Actually, carrying the pregnancy to term is safer than abortion.

Here is proof that Nic does not understand the mindset of a girl with a crisis pregnancy. It is little wonder he favors banning abortion. He doesn't grasp the subject matter and as a result will never come to a logical conclusion.

A girl with a crisis pregnancy does have the same mindset of a man about to go over a waterfall. Of course the danger isn't the same but it doesn't have to be for her to have the same mindset. For her, it is the same. In her mind, her world is coming to an end just as surely as a guy going over a waterfall. No law banning abortion is going to stop her from having one just like a law against trespassing will not prevent a man from going on another's land to save himself from going over a waterfall.

Abortion is not the answer, the gospel is, Unmarried sex has consequences to reap. A wrong is not made right by a worse wrong, that kind of thinking never works.

Perhaps the alcoholic is having a "crisis" too, just give him drink, right? Solves that problem. When the thief runs out of money should he meditate on this?

Exo 20:15 You shall not steal.

And this:

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Or do good Christians just suggest that he just go ahead and well....steal some more money, after all he has to eat and pay rent, right?

Every single sin can be "justified" by man. But they will turn into ropes of sand.

[doug yowell]

But Butt and Rebutt..

and headbutt!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

and irrelevant

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

Yes.and Karl.And Me.And Shane. And Richard. And Tall. And all the evidence that you have rejected.(II Cor.5:18-20)Sometimes God DOES work in mysterious ways.

What you wrote borders on heresy. I feel sorry for you.

If you REALLY feel sorry for me,send me a sizeable monetary contribution! Right now I need that more that sympathy.Thanks.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

irrelevant and mockery

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Thank you, CoAspen.

[doug yowell]

and nic has not proven his claim, in spite of his thousands and thousands of words!

or perhaps you could start providing the "proof", yourself instead of just making claims?

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Shane

I don't agree that a woman has a "right" to abortion. If she does, where did she get that "right"? Where did the "right" come from? No such "right" is stated in the Bible nor in the Constitution. So I don't believe any such "right" exists.

Originally Posted By: Shane

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

I said A WOMAN HAS THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE....CHOOSE....CHOOSE....CHOOSE....CHOOSE...

Choose what? Choose to beat her children? Choose not to pay her electric bill? Choose smoke crack? Choose to eat blue cheese and crackers? [/quote']I must admit that this is the coolest picture of the whole thread!!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

what's your point?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

A woman's body is private. What do you not understand about that? What she does with her body is her private business between her and God.

This was the view of the Supreme Court 35 years ago. Since then science has taught us so much we really see that abortion isn't just about the woman's body. The fetus actually has its own DNA before the woman even knows she is pregnant. The fetus has its own blood. So the question now isn't so much what the woman can do with *her* body but what she can do with the fetus' body.

Does the right to privacy allow a mother to abuse her child in the privacy of her own home? No, of course not. So why would the same right to privacy allow the same mother to do violence to the child in the privacy of her womb?

The Supreme Court may one day overturn Roe vs. Wade and when that happens abortion is going to go onto the ballot at a state level. Pro-choice groups need to give up this right to abortion argument because it is a losing argument. There is no right to abortion. That doesn't mean it should be illegal. There is no right to meat eating either but no one wants to ban McDonald's.

you may want to go back and review the arguments presented that decided roe vs wade.

[doug yowell]

what's your point?

I loved your creativity. Wish I had some of that!

[teresaq]

Mar 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

[teresaq]

this began, and continues with stupid, childish insults flying!!

if legitimate arguments can be presented then why the falling back on stupid, stupid, and the most immature of insults?!?!

and all of this in the name of God!!

[Steve Billiter]

Originally Posted By: Steve Billiter

"Excellent, Excellent post Shane, I think those of us that have mentioned we believe in choice had this in mind. Because there is no doubt that if they make abortion illegal that's exactly what would happen. If I'm not mistaken that is the way it was many years ago, that's why they did make it legal, because to many girl's die because they went for these quick fix abortionist doctors who were just interested in making money."

pk

The problem lies deeper than this. It makes no sense to me to trample upon God's commandments and then try to just "fix' the sin by killing unborn babies

Exo 20:14 You shall not commit adultery.

Breaking this commandment lies at the root of all sexual sin, it protects the sanctity of marriage and the family, and prevents unwanted pregnancies ensuring the the happiness of the family relationships.

1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man does is outside the body; but he that commits fornication sins against his own body.

Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

The 7th commandment covers all sex outside of marriage including homosexuality and other sins.

Its instructive to me that instead of killing babies in preparation for another round of illicit sex, why not teach them the gospel? When one is converted, they no longer fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

It is not up to the mother to choose death for her unborn, she does not own her own body, much less anyone else's.Every person who has ever lived owes their life to the sacrifice of Christ on the cross so mankind would have an extended probation lasting about 6000 years. God as Creator and Redeemer, really owns everyone and everything. His title, authority, and seal is found in the heart of the Ten Commandments.

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day: therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man does is outside the body; but he that commits fornication sins against his own body.

1Co 6:19 What? know you not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have of God, and you are not your own?

1Co 6:20 For you are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Jesus covenanted with the Father when sin appeared to pay the redemption price for guilty man.

One may say it doesn't matter if the mother is not a Christian and could care less about the Bible and God. Thats why the gospel is preached to the world

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap.

Why should those who fornicate without a marriage commitment be granted abortion to continue the sin unabated? If she dies at the hands of an abortionist, its very tragic and very sad, but the wages of sin is death and when one rejects Christ, there could be eternal loss at any moment.

Thats also part of my point. Why would professing Christians choose and promote the pro-choice agenda thus circumventing God's natural laws? Isn't that being a co-dependent for the fornicator, and trampling on God''s laws?

Ecc 8:11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

We are not discussing rape or the health of the mother here, although we can make some distinctions upon that as well.

Why just compound the sin and transgression? The end of all things is at hand; its past time we get our selves ready for the return of Jesus!

Luk 18:6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge said.

Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, who cry day and night unto him, though He bears long with them?

Luk 18:8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man comes, shall he find faith on the earth?

The helpless unborn children that are aborted in their innocence cry out to God for life and justice, who will speak for them?

Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

Isa 11:8 And the nursing child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder’s den.

We are not told whether unborn children will be given life in heaven, but do they not deserve a chance for eternal life since Jesus has paid the price for them too?

Excellent post. I am glad there are still Adventists who can interpret the Bible correctly!

thanks nic, very kind of you to say so.I'm still and always a Bible student, Gods word is exhaustless; that study will continue throughout the ceaseless ages.

Just think, if the children were aborted, they could not have come to Jesus to be blessed, and Jesus would have no little children to bless Him!

Mat 19:13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.

Mat 18:6 But whoever shall offend one of these little ones who believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

The worse offense I know of to do to a child is to kill him before he is born, then there is no life. How big shall the abortionists millstones be?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

The worse offense I know of to do to a child is to kill him before he is born, then there is no life. How big shall the abortionists millstones be?

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Matthew 7:1,2 NIV

[Steve Billiter]

content removed

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

That was unconscionable to print here. Shame on you, Steve. I mean it.

[Jeannieb43]

Steve Billiter, you are not speaking for the majority here by printing this propaganda. You are spreading hate. Not a good thing to do.