Is the Adventist Church Really Pro-life?

[Nic Samojluk]

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and nic has not proven his claim, in spite of his thousands and thousands of words! or perhaps you could start providing the "proof", yourself instead of just making claims?

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Nic said fewer Adventist women would choose abortion if the church took a stand similar to that of the Adventist Pioneers.

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you havent proven the pioneers took a stand.

and who, exactly, took a count as to how many "adventist" women have abortions?

teresa, YOU haven't even proven that Karl or Nic even exist,so why are you still arguing with them??

Karl and Nic exist only in cyber space, and are soon scheduled to be sucked into a black hole.

By the way, what Pam has proved is that she can't even read the title of my dissertation right. The title is :FROM PRO-LIFE TO PRO-CHOICE ..." but she told everybody that I had concluded that the Adventist Church is pro-life today. Can you believe that? From someone who trumpeted that my research was worthless before she had a chance to read its title correctly.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

. Adam thought it was a good idea to experiment, and look what happened. We are paying the price for his rebellion thousands of years later. Look at the price Jesus paid for said rebellion. Are you determined to encourage women to follow Adam’s example?

I wasn't aware that Adam had an abortion.

Irrelevant.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

By the way, what Pam has proved is that she can't even read the title of my dissertation right. The title is :FROM PRO-LIFE TO PRO-CHOICE ..." but she told everybody that I had concluded that the Adventist Church is pro-life today.

[teresaq]

Some one said to not make this a male vs female issue...how many men have babies? Now one has given any proof that a couple of cells is a baby. TAke those cells from several groups of animal life and show me the difference. Statistical sampling is just that, sampling, says nothing about the accuracy. There are several more tests that must be performed on that sample to determine if it accurately reflects the population it was taken from and what is the sampling error plus, etc etc. Statistics is a wonderful piece of math, but is mostly abused and wrong for the sake of proving a preconceived idea or premise. Most public surveys are not unbiased and wording of the questions can give a desired answer, ie, political polls. No doubt many women are against abortion, but what is their answer after the rape, incest, etc. For a question on abortion to be accurate both set of individuals need to be polled in equal numbers.

God gave man 'choice' and a brain to use. If some wish to control womens choice, stay away from such a person for there will be many other aspects of spiritual life they will try to control also. For examples of such...just read the religious topics in the many forums.

The topic of this thread is really about fault finding of the church, disguised as being of supreme importance. To many people are Gods in their own minds!!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Nic, the more you write, the more I am convinced your degree is worthless, your dissertation is biased and untrustworthy, you have set yourself up as God, and your attitude reflects hostility and resentment towards your fellow man.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Excellent post. I am glad there are still Adventists who can interpret the Bible correctly! [/quote']

thanks nic, very kind of you to say so.I'm still and always a Bible student, Gods word is exhaustless; that study will continue throughout the ceaseless ages.

Just think, if the children were aborted, they could not have come to Jesus to be blessed, and Jesus would have no little children to bless Him!

Mat 19:13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.

Mat 18:6 But whoever shall offend one of these little ones who believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

The worse offense I know of to do to a child is to kill him before he is born, then there is no life. How big shall the abortionists millstones be?

Steve,

Good question! Big enough to make sure they sink to the bottom. Nevertheless, many of them will see the light before it is too late, and will repent of making the death of the innocents easier instead of making it harder. Unfortunately, it will be too late for the victims of abortion, and I count most women as also victims of the abortion madness. Quite often, they are either coaxed or even forced to an untenable position where the female has no way to turn.

Now something on the bright side: It seems to me that when the night is the darkest is when the sun of the morning is the nearest. The killing of the male babies in Egypt by King Pharaoh was followed by the mighty liberation of the Israelites from the Egyptian bondage. The killing of the babies in Bethlehem was followed by the saving power manifested by the life and deeds of Jesus Christ. The genocide of the Jews in Germany resulted in the creation of the modern State of Israel. From all this, I conclude that the current genocide of the unborn might be the birth pangs of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords.

When Joseph’s brothers sold him into slavery, they thought that they had triumphed over him. What a surprise it was for them to discover some years later that the one they had cruelly sold into slavery had become the second in power in Egypt and the one who now was ready to rescue them from starvation. This is how God transforms the greatest misery into the greatest blessing.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

The killing of the male babies in Egypt by King Pharaoh was followed by the mighty liberation of the Israelites from the Egyptian bondage. The killing of the babies in Bethlehem was followed by the saving power manifested by the life and deeds of Jesus Christ. The genocide of the Jews in Germany resulted in the creation of the modern State of Israel. From all this, I conclude that the current genocide of the unborn might be the birth pangs of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords

No one knows when Christ will come, save God the Father.

Originally Posted By: Nic

When Joseph’s brothers sold him into slavery, they thought that they had triumphed over him. What a surprise it was for them to discover some years later that the one they had cruelly sold into slavery had become the second in power in Egypt and the one who now was ready to rescue them from starvation. This is how God transforms the greatest misery into the greatest blessing.

irrelevant

[Nic Samojluk]

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I would like to know why the post by Steve was removed! There seems to exist a conspiracy of silence when the story deals with a rich Adventist. Poor individuals like us in the pro-life side of the divide can be butchered without mercy on this blog and management won't move a finger to defend them, but when a rich Adventist who owns about 20 abortion clinics looses his children in a tragedy, and his connection with the abortion industry is revealed, then management pulls the plug on the story. Is this fair?

We are discussing abortion. Why are we so afraid of allowing other Adventist to learn what happened to a man who invested heavily into the abortion industry? Why are we trying to sanitize what the Bible openly included in Holy Writ. What would the Bible look like if the frailties of holy men had been sanitized in Scripture? Why did God allow the story of David's murder to be included there? How about Peter's denial of Jesus? Are we trying to improve on the transparency revealed in the sacred pages of the Bible?

I am posting here a link to the story which was excised from this blog. Of course, I realize that this posting may end in a black hole like Steves comments.

http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/646579835.html

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Steve Billiter

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I would like to know why the post by Steve was removed! There seems to exist a conspiracy of silence when the story deals with a rich Adventist. Poor individuals like us in the pro-life side of the divide can be butchered without mercy on this blog and management won't move a finger to defend them,

get over your martyr complex, nic!! lol.

everything that you accuse those who oppose you of is exactly what you and yours have done!!

Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

[teresaq]

Pam, could you imagine for us a conversation between a woman and God about the termination of the baby inside her?

I think it would really help men to understand what you and teresa are talking about if you could address this from the woman's perspective which you so consistently insist that men cannot understand.

I must admit that I can't think of a single thing a woman could say to God about planning an abortion.

then karl, if you cant see a woman talking to God about this, it tells me that you dont take your cares and worries to the Lord. or perhaps you have never really had anything major in your life...or any struggles, which would explain quite a bit.

otherwise you wouldnt ask such a silly question.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: Steve Billiter

content removed

I would like to know why the post by Steve was removed! There seems to exist a conspiracy of silence when the story deals with a rich Adventist. Poor individuals like us in the pro-life side of the divide can be butchered without mercy on this blog and management won't move a finger to defend them...

This is not the kind of message that needs to be seen on this forum. Why did you post the link to a tragedy of two grieving families and try to link it up with your anti abortion agenda? Shame on you. You owe the families an apology.

And you aren't a "poor individual" who has been butchered without mercy on this forum. You've done it to yourself.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

Pam, could you imagine for us a conversation between a woman and God about the termination of the baby inside her?

I think it would really help men to understand what you and teresa are talking about if you could address this from the woman's perspective which you so consistently insist that men cannot understand.

I must admit that I can't think of a single thing a woman could say to God about planning an abortion.

then karl, if you cant see a woman talking to God about this, it tells me that you dont take your cares and worries to the Lord. or perhaps you have never really had anything major in your life...or any struggles, which would explain quite a bit.

otherwise you wouldnt ask such a silly question.

I didn't say I couldn't imagine a woman talking to God about it. I said I couldn't imagine what a woman would say to God about planning an abortion. I can imagine all kinds of grief and repentance afterward, but what would you say to God on the front end?

And you can stop with the assumptions about my life. They truly are irrelevant to the topic.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

then karl, if you cant see a woman talking to God about this, it tells me that you dont take your cares and worries to the Lord. or perhaps you have never really had anything major in your life...or any struggles, which would explain quite a bit.

otherwise you wouldnt ask such a silly question. [/quote']

I didn't say I couldn't imagine a woman talking to God about it. I said I couldn't imagine what a woman would say to God about planning an abortion. I can imagine all kinds of grief and repentance afterward, but what would you say to God on the front end?

And you can stop with the assumptions about my life. They truly are irrelevant to the topic.

well, karl, if you cant imagine, then you cant imagine. those who have had serious issues come up can imagine, unless they are truly narcissistic.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

I would like to know why the post by Steve was removed! There seems to exist a conspiracy of silence when the story deals with a rich Adventist. Poor individuals like us in the pro-life side of the divide can be butchered without mercy on this blog and management won't move a finger to defend them...

This is not the kind of message that needs to be seen on this forum. Why did you post the link to a tragedy of two grieving families and try to link it up with your anti abortion agenda? Shame on you. You owe the families an apology.

And you aren't a "poor individual" who has been butchered without mercy on this forum. You've done it to yourself.

these are just the sick tactics of this "movement". they have absolutely no feeling or compassion for the born....

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

#1 is to ask God for wisdom to know what would be the right thing to do under the circumstances the woman finds herself in.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Shane,

You claim that “Societies that have restricted abortion have dramatically less abortions.” Please, provide the source of this data. Is it coming from a credible source? The history in our own country seems to contradict said assertion.

The history of our country only has a couple examples of restricted abortion laws. Most of our country has been abortion-on-demand since Roe v. Wade.

Wisconsin provides one example of restricted abortion laws.

Abortions hit record low in Wisconsin

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June 30, 2009 | Madison — The number of abortions performed in Wisconsin dropped slightly last year to its lowest level since the state began keeping records three decades ago, according to a state report released Tuesday.

The state Department of Health Services study found that 8,229 abortions were performed in Wisconsin last year, down from 8,267 in 2007.

The number of Wisconsin abortions has now fallen for five straight years, since 10,557 abortions were reported in 2003. The 2008 number also was the lowest since Wisconsin started tracking abortions in 1974.

Although the drop was small, it was hailed by anti-abortion advocates.

Other states have also seen a drop in abortion after they started restricting it. The Netherlands has a low abortion rate which is contributed to its wide use of contraceptives and restrictive abortion laws.

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Regarding the number of unwed births, my question is: How is this relevant to the killing of the unborn which is the topic of this discussion.

Isn't the answer obvious?

[Nic Samojluk]

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So now I am the work of the Devil?

From personal experience Pam ... I know that when people resort to these kinds of attacks ... they are just exposing their real colors. It is sad. But we have been told that in the end times there will be people like this.

Some place themselves in the place of God in judging others. This meets the definition of blasphemy.

Redwood,

Evidently we live in a strange world. Those who are defending their right to choose to exterminate a large segment of the human race are hailed as heroes, while anybody who dares to come in defense of those destined to the slaughter are condemned as judgmemntal.

Pro-lifers have no need to condemn anybody. The Bible is here to condemns the violators of God's Law. The only reliable witness in this debate is God and his Holy Book, regardless of what others may say in defense to the lawless actions of men.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Restriction of abortion tends to reduce the number of abortion. Imagine what would happen if those restriction were to be increased by making abortion illegal in the entire country. Common sense, logic, and the data you provided indicates that such an action would further decrease the number of abortions.

It would probably lead to an increase in the number of back alley abortions, and an increase in deaths of women due to those....that's what common sense and logic would indicate.

[karl]

The number of abortions is predicted to increase due to the opening of new abortion clinics. Can you see the effect of making abortion legal and readily available? More clinics=more abortions!

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Barbara Lyons, executive director of Wisconsin Right to Life, said her organization was worried abortions might increase in 2008 because abortion clinics in Appleton and Milwaukee that were closed for the last half of 2007 reopened at the beginning of 2008. http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/49559452.html

What you posted makes my point. Restriction of abortion tends to reduce the number of abortion. Imagine what would happen if those restriction were to be increased by making abortion illegal in the entire country. Common sense, logic, and the data you provided indicates that such an action would further decrease the number of abortions.

Our world is committing a slow suicide in multiple areas. Abortion is only one of them, but I think it is so symptomatic of the rest.

After decades of fear-mongering books like Paul Ehrlich's best-selling The Population Bomb (1968) and its sequel, The Population Explosion (1990), and exhortations from environmentalists that humans will soon cover every inch of the planet, birthrates are plummeting.

Europe as a whole is expected to lose almost 100 million people by 2050. The populations of several Soviet-bloc nations already are falling because of declining birth rates and emigration. Japan will peak out right after Italy and lose about 14 percent of its population, almost 20 million people, by 2050. Germany will experience a similar decline, while Russia will lose about a third of its population and Hungary a fourth.

The United States will continue to grow, only because of essentially unfettered immigration and births to those immigrants. The U.N. middle estimate puts the U.S. population at about 409 million by 2050. The complexion of the US will continue to change. Caucasians, with a birthrate of less than 2, are not maintaining their population, much less growing.

Birth rates are also falling fast in the underdeveloped world, so much so that by 2050 the world population will increase by only 2.6 billion more and then top out at about 8.9 billion, according to the U.N. That's less than the projection from just two years earlier, which in turn was less than the prediction two years before that.

At that point, with fertility rates at around 1.85, world population will go into free-fall.

Still, isn't it nice that we're not about to overrun the earth like a plague of locusts? Actually, the analogy was never correct. The Earth has never been in danger of overcrowding. It has just been in danger of environmentalist hysteria. The entire population of the earth could live in the state of Texas and be no more crowded than in many large cities of the world.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Those who are defending their right to choose to exterminate a large segment of the human race are hailed as heroes, while anybody who dares to come in defense of those destined to the slaughter are condemned as judgmemntal[sic]

You intimated that I was the work of the Devil. Who's doing the judging here?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Still, isn't it nice that we're not about to overrun the earth like a plague of locusts? Actually, the analogy was never correct. The Earth has never been in danger of overcrowding. It has just been in danger of environmentalist hysteria. The entire population of the earth could live in the state of Texas and be no more crowded than in many large cities of the world.

irrelevant

[teresaq]

Still, isn't it nice that we're not about to overrun the earth like a plague of locusts? Actually, the analogy was never correct. The Earth has never been in danger of overcrowding. It has just been in danger of environmentalist hysteria. The entire population of the earth could live in the state of Texas and be no more crowded than in many large cities of the world.

As of 5 January 2010, the Earth's population is estimated by the United States Census Bureau to be 6,794,400,000.

texas covers a land area of 261,797 square miles.

so you see 6,794,400,000 people being able to live in 261,797 square miles? that is .19 feet per person.

well ok. dont know where you get your info from but youre par for your course. :)

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Nic

Restriction of abortion tends to reduce the number of abortion. Imagine what would happen if those restriction were to be increased by making abortion illegal in the entire country. Common sense, logic, and the data you provided indicates that such an action would further decrease the number of abortions.

It would probably lead to an increase in the number of back alley abortions, and an increase in deaths of women due to those....that's what common sense and logic would indicate.

This argument for legalized abortion is a head-scratcher for me. "Women are likely to kill babies in an unhealthy way, so let's help them kill babies healthfully."

It's one of those "huh?" No civilized society permits one human to intentionally harm or take the life of another human without punishment, but not only are we opposed to punishment, we want to help them do it healthfully?

Adoption is a viable alternative to abortion and accomplishes the same result. And with 1.5 million American families wanting to adopt a child, there is no such thing as an unwanted child.

What we need to do is to massively publicize the truth - that even if the mother doesn't want her child, her child is wanted and can have a home if the mother will just refrain from killing her baby.

[doug yowell]

this began, and continues with stupid, childish insults flying!!

if legitimate arguments can be presented then why the falling back on stupid, stupid, and the most immature of insults?!?!

and all of this in the name of God!!

Cheez Teresa! Why so sensitive? It wasn't an insult. Can't you take a compliment either??

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

And with 1.5 million American families wanting to adopt a child, there is no such thing as an unwanted child.

where did you get that data?

Every week in my newspaper is a section on foster kids waiting for someone to adopt them because no one has wanted them.