Is the Adventist Church Really Pro-life?

[Dr. Shane]

Shane,

Thank you for your answer! I feel like you are an individual I can reason with. You mention Mexico and Kenya, so my question to you is: Are we discussing Mexico and Kenya or the U.S.? If we are discussing those countries, then can you provide the source of your statistics?

[karl]

Abortion rate in the Netherlands is 8.6 per 1,000

In the US it is 19.4 per 1,000

In Mexico it is 33 per 1,000

So do we want to move abortion laws to be more like Mexico or more like the Netherlands?

OK now, this is useful stuff, Shane. You are demonstrating that there are fewer babies murdered if we don't ban abortion.

That is the kind of evidence we need. We don't need to know what's better for the abortionists or their accomplices. We're trying to save the lives of the innocent victims.

Now we need to know what effect taxpayer support has on the numbers.

[Dr. Shane]

The reason there are fewer abortions is speculated to be that pro-life groups raise awareness about abortion and provide crisis pregnancy centers. In American we have a "conversation" about abortion just like the one in this thread. Pregnant women don't have to make a decision in secret. Since abortion is legal, they can openly talk to their friends and family about their options. All these things help decrease the number of abortions. If abortion is further restricted, like in the Netherlands, we should be able to see the abortion rate drop lower than what it is now.

[karl]

In fact ... the majority of Americans feel it is a sin to refuse abortion.

What?

You'll have to pardon me while I doubt the veracity of this statement. It is one thing to think abortion should be legal. It is a completely different thing to think it is a sin not to have an abortion. This is a totally unwarranted assumption.

Gallup polls have consistently shown that the MAJORITY of Americans believe abortion should be legal only in LIMITED circumstances.

And here you come saying "the majority of Americans feel it is a sin to refuse abortion." That is quite a leap ya got there, pardner.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Speaking as a witch, there is nothing wrong with abortion. It provides a hearty meal. Very good with hollandaise sauce.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: there buster

Quote:

Apparently you did not read the entire post of mine. I think I gave the answer to that there buster. I thought you were a better reader than that.

I did not think that your answer was serious. So, if we put murder to a vote, and people voted to decriminalize it, you would accept that?

People did accept slavery and voted to preserve it before the Civil War. If I understand your position correctly, the North never should have fought against the South, since the people there supported secession and slavery.

That does not strike me as a morally serious position.

Yes! Slavery was morally wrong and killing innocent human being is morally wrong as well. The time is ripe to outlaw all kinds of murder!

Abortion is not murder, and embryos are not human beings. They don't own property, they don't go to school, they don't have any freedom of choice. God gave humans freedom of choice.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Note to Nic: I suggest you remove your PhD diploma from your website. It is laughable. You are using it to establish your knowledge of a subject which you obviously do NOT have valid credentials for. Your dissertation is a joke. And unprofessional one, at that.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

The folks at Planned Parenthood are a bad group of people. They are not about choice. They want to see as many abortions performed as possible. In fact, there is evidence they may be racist as they place disproportionate number of their clinics in Hispanic and Black neighborhoods - almost like they want to kill off the minority babies. Planned Parenthood receives lots of federal funding. Crisis Pregnancy Centers, which help women in crisis pregnancies and discourage abortion, receive a small fraction of the funding Planned Parenthood receives. If Crisis Pregnancy Centers received the same level of funding as Planned Parenthood we would see a measurable drop in abortions in the US.

Painting all people at Planned Parenthood as "bad" is not logical. You don't know them all. Did it ever occur to you that their clinics might be in Hispanic and Black neighborhoods because that's where the majority of unwanted pregnancies are?

Originally Posted By: Nic

Yes, your arguments sound as reasonable to me!

I don't think you understand what "reasonable'' even means.

[karl]

Abortion is not murder, and embryos are not human beings. They don't own property, they don't go to school, they don't have any freedom of choice. God gave humans freedom of choice.

There's a wonderful woman who brings her fifty year old daughter, Carolyn, to the clinic I work in. Her daughter suffered birth trauma and has cerebral palsy. She cannot move her arms or legs and cannot communicate with her mother other than to respond with negative facial expression to pain. Her response to pleasant sensations is simply quiet acceptance. Her mother loves her and takes stellar care of her. Nary a bed sore nor a contracture. Who knows whether she loves her mother? Her mother and I believe she does, but we cannot prove it.

She's never owned property or gone to school. She has no freedom of choice that we know of.

Unlike unborn babies, she has no potential for future development or independence in this life.

Shall I suggest to her mother that we kill her? That wouldn't be murder, would it? Not by the definition above. It would be way more convenient for her mother not to have to care for her daughter.

Whadduyathink?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

she is not an unborn embryo. She has freedom of choice, whether you see it or not. She could be placed in a school. You obviously don't understand cerebral palsy patients very well.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

There's a wonderful woman who brings her fifty year old daughter, Carolyn, to the clinic I work in. Her daughter suffered birth trauma and has cerebral palsy. She cannot move her arms or legs and cannot communicate with her mother other than to respond with negative facial expression to pain. Her response to pleasant sensations is simply quiet acceptance. Her mother loves her and takes stellar care of her. Nary a bed sore nor a contracture. Who knows whether she loves her mother? Her mother and I believe she does, but we cannot prove it.

She's never owned property or gone to school. She has no freedom of choice that we know of.

Unlike unborn babies, she has no potential for future development or independence in this life.

Shall I suggest to her mother that we kill her? That wouldn't be murder, would it? Not by the definition above. It would be way more convenient for her mother not to have to care for her daughter.

Whadduyathink?[/quote']

she is not an unborn embryo. She has freedom of choice, whether you see it or not. She could be placed in a school. You obviously don't understand cerebral palsy patients very well.

I understand this one very well, thank you. She has never had any freedom of choice. She qualifies for daycare only - not school. She is unresponsive to all except painful stimuli. This is basically a coma.

She has FAR less future than most unborn babies.

Shall we kill her?

[Dr. Shane]

Painting all people at Planned Parenthood as "bad" is not logical. You don't know them all.

I didn't mean in indicate everyone working for Planned Parenthood is bad. I was talking about the leaders of the organization that seek to gain access to our public schools, public funding and expand their abortion clinics into our minority neighborhoods. I am sure there are many loving and compassionate people that work for Planned Parenthood that truly believe in what they are doing. Their leadership, however, works to increase the number of abortions performed in America.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

I understand this one very well, thank you. She has never had any freedom of choice. She qualifies for daycare only - not school. She is unresponsive to all except painful stimuli. This is basically a coma.

She has FAR less future than most unborn babies.

Shall we kill her?

I don't endorse murder of live people, do you?

So your God didn't give a live person freedom of choice?... interesting concept

And what will happen to her when her mother/caretaker dies?

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

[i understand this one very well, thank you. She has never had any freedom of choice. She qualifies for daycare only - not school. She is unresponsive to all except painful stimuli. This is basically a coma.

She has FAR less future than most unborn babies.

Shall we kill her?

I don't endorse murder of live people, do you?

So your God didn't give a live person freedom of choice?... interesting concept

And what will happen to her when her mother/caretaker dies?

Actually, Carolyn passed away last month.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

So what was your point in talking about her? Obviously, her God thought she was better off dead so you set up a straw man argument.

[doug yowell]

Speaking as a witch, there is nothing wrong with abortion. It provides a hearty meal. Very good with hollandaise sauce.

Been dumpster diving again, RW?

[karl]

I hope the women contributing to this thread are at least upset about infanticide and especially female infanticide.

In some societies, especially in India and China, more girls are killed than boys because of the higher value placed on male offspring. It is estimated that more than one million children worldwide are killed each year because they are born female.

The number of children killed by their parents is probably much higher than statistics suggest. Many infant deaths are never officially recognised as infanticide. Women offenders are usually perceived as being psychologically unstable and receive non-custodial or psychiatric sentences, while men almost always receive prison sentences.

Infanticide became a volatile issue during the Victorian era and was written about by authors such as Charles Dickens, George Eliot, and Matthew Arnold.

In China it is important to have boys, as only boys can carry on the family name and honor the ancestors. This preference for male children has led to approximately 10,000 female infants being killed in China each year (1996), and along with the abortion of females has resulted in a sex ratio of 131 males to 100 females (1997); worldwide the ratio is 105 males to 100 females. In rural areas of China it is even higher; in one county, the ratio of live male births to female in 1995 was 316 to 100. The ‘one child per couple’ policy has increased the traditional preference for male babies and the possibility of determining the sex of a baby by ultrasound scanners (illegal in China) has led to an increase in abortions of females. By the end of the century it is estimated that there will be an excess of 90 million unmarried men.

Infanticide in India occurs mostly among poor, rural populations. Daughters are considered economic burdens because of the high cost of weddings and dowries, while sons provide income, and are seen as a type of insurance by their parents. New prenatal sex-determination techniques, such as ultrasound, have led to an increase in the abortion of females rather than female infanticide. Female infanticide and abortion have increased in recent years as women opt for smaller families. In India the sex ratio is 93 women for every 100 men, but in some regions there are fewer than 85 women per 100 men. Research carried out at a Mumbai (formerly Bombay) hospital revealed in 1995 that for every aborted male, there were 1,000 aborted females.

------------

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

Speaking as a witch, there is nothing wrong with abortion. It provides a hearty meal. Very good with hollandaise sauce.

Been dumpster diving again, RW?

irrelevant, and my name is not RW

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

Been dumpster diving again, RW? [/quote']

irrelevant, and my name is not RW

Yeah. RW belongs to me. Who is trying to assign it to you? That's not very polite.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I hope the women contributing to this thread are at least upset about infanticide and especially female infanticide.

In some societies, especially in India and China, more girls are killed than boys because of the higher value placed on male offspring. It is estimated that more than one million children worldwide are killed each year because they are born female.

The number of children killed by their parents is probably much higher than statistics suggest. Many infant deaths are never officially recognised as infanticide. Women offenders are usually perceived as being psychologically unstable and receive non-custodial or psychiatric sentences, while men almost always receive prison sentences.

Infanticide became a volatile issue during the Victorian era and was written about by authors such as Charles Dickens, George Eliot, and Matthew Arnold.

In China it is important to have boys, as only boys can carry on the family name and honor the ancestors. This preference for male children has led to approximately 10,000 female infants being killed in China each year (1996), and along with the abortion of females has resulted in a sex ratio of 131 males to 100 females (1997); worldwide the ratio is 105 males to 100 females. In rural areas of China it is even higher; in one county, the ratio of live male births to female in 1995 was 316 to 100. The ‘one child per couple’ policy has increased the traditional preference for male babies and the possibility of determining the sex of a baby by ultrasound scanners (illegal in China) has led to an increase in abortions of females. By the end of the century it is estimated that there will be an excess of 90 million unmarried men.

Infanticide in India occurs mostly among poor, rural populations. Daughters are considered economic burdens because of the high cost of weddings and dowries, while sons provide income, and are seen as a type of insurance by their parents. New prenatal sex-determination techniques, such as ultrasound, have led to an increase in the abortion of females rather than female infanticide. Female infanticide and abortion have increased in recent years as women opt for smaller families. In India the sex ratio is 93 women for every 100 men, but in some regions there are fewer than 85 women per 100 men. Research carried out at a Mumbai (formerly Bombay) hospital revealed in 1995 that for every aborted male, there were 1,000 aborted females.

infanticide is irrelevant to abortion

[karl]

So what was your point in talking about her? Obviously, her God thought she was better off dead so you set up a straw man argument.

This is not a straw man argument. This patient, who was more of a burden and had less potential than most unborn babies ever, is someone you would not sacrifice. Yet a baby with almost unlimited potential you are willing to dumpster? What is the magic of being out of the birth canal? How does this transition change the morality for you?

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

Sorry,Pam I was in a hurry,it was going to take too long to type rudywoofs!

Yeah. RW belongs to me. Who is trying to assign it to you? That's not very polite.

My apologies also.I forgot that you also qualify as an RW in case of a shortcut. Did you ever ask your parents WHY they named you Redwood? Is that your last name?

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

Been dumpster diving again, RW? [/quote']

irrelevant, and my name is not RW

You didn't get it ,did you?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

So what was your point in talking about her? Obviously, her God thought she was better off dead so you set up a straw man argument.

This is not a straw man argument. This patient, who was more of a burden and had less potential than most unborn babies ever, is someone you would not sacrifice. Yet a baby with almost unlimited potential you are willing to dumpster? What is the magic of being out of the birth canal? How does this transition change the morality for you?

My point, as always, is that I will not force my own belief system on a woman who is facing a decision about abortion.

Your questions are irrelevant to my point.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

You didn't get it ,did you?

Oh, I "got it" all right. It's irrelevant.