Is the Adventist Church Really Pro-life?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Red and Rudy, I like you both, but you're dead wrong on this one.

I have a choice to steal or not. I can choose whether to speed or not. I can choose whether to take illegal drugs or not. That choice is between me and God, just like abortion. Using your logic, anything we can choose to do could not be outlawed by anyone at any level.

This is ridiculous on its face.

Abortion is a woman's choice between her and her God. It is a moral dilemma for a woman. I'm not talking about anything but abortion. My logic is not the question here. It is an ethical question. And I stand by my view that it is not my job to judge a woman's decision to have or not have an abortion. It is between her and God.

You can call me ridiculous if you wish. That's entirely up to you.

[Nic Samojluk]

You're showing your naivete and ignorance by your last statement. You just haven't lived long enough to understand that there may be _many_ possible reasons for an abortion, and it would not be a sin.

You're free to control your own wife (if she'll allow it), but you're not free to try to control all the women of the world. You have no idea. Just go on your way. You've done enough harm already.

===========

While I was posting this, I see you have changed your own post. So my "last statement" statement doesn't make sense. The message is still current, however.

Jennieb,

It would be helpful if you would identify either the comments or the person you are responding to.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Still, isn't it nice that we're not about to overrun the earth like a plague of locusts? Actually, the analogy was never correct. The Earth has never been in danger of overcrowding. It has just been in danger of environmentalist hysteria. The entire population of the earth could live in the state of Texas and be no more crowded than in many large cities of the world.

Karl, so what's your point?

[there buster]

Quote:

You can call me ridiculous if you wish. That's entirely up to you.

I did not call you or anyone else ridiculous.

The notion that just because we have free will (choice) means that no one but God can hold us to account for that choice is ridiculous.

If it applies to abortion, it should apply to anything and everything else that we can choose or not choose. And if we did that, we would have a society like the one before the Flood.

[Woody]

Any time you try to control a large population with morals that are not accepted by a majority ... you will have discord. This is why I asked if we were prepared to vote for imposing the Sabbath on the general population.

There needs to be some kind of compromise that will keep both sides in check. I for one refuse to impose my personal belief that abortion is a sin ... upon others. Just like I refuse to impose ANY of my religious beliefs on others when it is not generally accepted by the majority of the population. And I mean the vast majority.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

It would probably lead to an increase in the number of back alley abortions, and an increase in deaths of women due to those....that's what common sense and logic would indicate. [/quote']

This argument for legalized abortion is a head-scratcher for me. "Women are likely to kill babies in an unhealthy way, so let's help them kill babies healthfully."

It's one of those "huh?" No civilized society permits one human to intentionally harm or take the life of another human without punishment, but not only are we opposed to punishment, we want to help them do it healthfully?

Adoption is a viable alternative to abortion and accomplishes the same result. And with 1.5 million American families wanting to adopt a child, there is no such thing as an unwanted child.

What we need to do is to massively publicize the truth - that even if the mother doesn't want her child, her child is wanted and can have a home if the mother will just refrain from killing her baby.

May the good Lord bless you for your courage and willingnes to go against the current. It is not easy, but the Lord will reward you abundantly. We need to pray for your ministry!

[Dr. Shane]

Just to clarify, I believe civil government has the right to ban abortion. I do not believe abortion is a human or civil right. However I do not believe banning abortion works to reduce the number of abortions performed. In fact, there is evidence to indicate the opposite. Moreover, banning abortion creates an abortion black market that not only kills the unborn children, but often claims the lives of the pregnant women too. I think it is far better public policy to restrict abortions, promote contraceptives and fund crisis pregnancy centers.

[Nic Samojluk]

Does ANYone have an idea about the cost of an adoption. I do. I adopted my son. It is very expensive.

Redwood,

I do. I have a close relative who adopted three of them a few years ago at approximately $ 25,000 apiece. Of course, they had to go to the other side of the world because they could not find any available here. And do not think that they were looking for perfect kids. One of them is in a special education classroom, and he was adopted when he was seven.

[Dr. Shane]

Any time you try to control a large population with morals that are not accepted by a majority ... you will have discord.

So if we put abortion on the ballot and let the voters decide that would be an acceptable solution. Right?

[there buster]

Quote:

I for one refuse to impose my personal belief that abortion is a sin ... upon others.

O.K. then how about these:

I for one refuse to impose my personal belief that stealing is a sin ... upon others.

I for one refuse to impose my personal belief that slavery is a sin ... upon others.

I for one refuse to impose my personal belief that murder is a sin ... upon others.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

As of 5 January 2010, the Earth's population is estimated by the United States Census Bureau to be 6,794,400,000.

texas covers a land area of 261,797 square miles.

so you see 6,794,400,000 people being able to live in 261,797 square miles? that is .19 feet per person.

well ok. dont know where you get your info from but youre par for your course. [/quote']

I'm sorry I have to correct you so often, but here is the math:

261,797 sq miles times 28.878,400 sq ft per sq mile equals roughly 7.3 trillion sq ft. This is more than 1000 square feet per person.

Uh,Karl, I believe that would calculate out to 500 pairs of square shoes per person!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

If it applies to abortion, it should apply to anything and everything else that we can choose or not choose.

Why should it be logical that all choices are based on the assumption that only God can hold us to account just because abortion is? That makes no sense. God gave us minds to think with. Saying that rape is okay because one chooses to do it is a non sequitor to the abortion issue. It's irrational thinking.

A woman facing an abortion issue does not need to be judged by anyone but God. It is between her and God.

[Woody]

Apparently you did not read the entire post of mine. I think I gave the answer to that there buster. I thought you were a better reader than that. :)

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

CoAspen,

You ask: “How many men have babies? And I ask: How many women were involved in the Roe v Wade deicision? Weren’t they all men? Are you suggesting that men made a terrible blunder and therefore men are not entitled to undo the same?

You said: “TAke those cells from several groups of animal life and show me the difference.” I cant tell the difference, but a DNA expert can. Human DNA cells are different from animal DNA cells.

You said: “God gave man 'choice' and a brain to use.” My answer is: Yes, and God gave a set of rules. We know quite well what happens when men rebel against God’s rules. Adam thought it was a good idea to experiment, and look what happened. We are paying the price for his rebellion thousands of years later. Look at the price Jesus paid for said rebellion. Are you determined to encourage women to follow Adam’s example?

[/quote']

So basicly you are all about rules....brain and choice be secondary...shame on God for making us the way he did. You make the claim that your beliefs are the same as Gods rules...best study a little longer and deeper.

CoAspen,

Did I claim to have written the Decalogue? Can't you be serious? Please provide the reference where I allegedly claimed that my beliefs are the same as Gods! I simply referred you to God's Ten Rules! Is this a sin?

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

where did you get that data?

Every week in my newspaper is a section on foster kids waiting for someone to adopt them because no one has wanted them. [/quote']

Here are just a few of many, many sites of families desiring to adopt:

http://www.lifetimeadoption.com/for_birtmothers/profiles.html

http://www.parentprofiles.com/

http://www.adoptionnetwork.com/waitingfamilies/adoption-unplanned-pregnancy.html

http://www.adoptionbygentlecare.org/home/families

http://www.adoptiontree.com/families.html

I wish you would not try to derail this discussion. The adoption I was describing is mothers giving up their newborn babies for adoption. That is the easiest adoption to facilitate.

Yes, there are older children with behavior problems who are much more difficult to place, but even they can find homes.

Thanks for the rebuttal! I did post elsewhere the fact that a relative of mine went to Kazakstan to adopt a seven year old with special behavioral needs at a cost of $25,000 dollars.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Adoption is a viable alternative to abortion and accomplishes the same result. And with 1.5 million American families wanting to adopt a child, there is no such thing as an unwanted child.

Tell that to all the foster kids waiting for someone to adopt them.

[Dr. Shane]

Most people willing to adopt want a newborn. Foster kids have often times been abused, neglected and sexually violated. They normally come with a lot of emotional baggage that most people simply don't have the time and ability to deal with.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Karl

Adoption is a viable alternative to abortion and accomplishes the same result. And with 1.5 million American families wanting to adopt a child, there is no such thing as an unwanted child.

Tell that to all the foster kids waiting for someone to adopt them.

and the kids on the streets all over the world as well as the numerous orphanages.

oh thats right!! they arent a cute brand new little baby that one pretend is ones very own!!

karl, get your words right, they dont want a child, they want a baby!!

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

What you posted makes my point. Restriction of abortion tends to reduce the number of abortion. Imagine what would happen if those restriction were to be increased by making abortion illegal in the entire country. Common sense, logic, and the data you provided indicates that such an action would further decrease the number of abortions.

No it doesn't. We need only look at Mexico or Kenya to see what happens when abortion is banned. In fact, when abortion is banned, the pro-life groups disappear and stop trying to reduce abortions. A black market takes root and abortions increase to a greater number than in countries where they are legal. Banning abortion clearly does not reduce abortion. If our goal is to reduce abortions, the proven way to do that is to keep it legal, pass restrictions, encourage contraceptives and pro-life counseling centers. That has a proven record of success. Banning abortion has a proven record of failure.

Just a suggestion and a question.First, never connect common sense and logic with Mexico or Kenya,even if data is involved.Second, you make an interesting observation when you state that prolife groups disappear when abortion is banned. Since prolife groups in the US did not exist until after abortion was legalized isn't it a little speculative to project that they would fail to continue if abortion was recriminalized,since there is no past experience to base that assumption on? It seems a valid POSSIBILITY though,something that would have to be addressed by the prolife community. But why does it have to be one or the other? As a long term strategy, why couldn't abortion be criminalized AND CPC,s be funded,thus,the most effective of both worlds?

[Dr. Shane]

Let's say there are 1.5 million Americans that want to adopt and suddenly by some miracle all women stop aborting. Within two years all of those 1.5 million Americans would have children. Now what happens to the unwanted children born after the first 1.5 million are adopted out?

No easy answers. Adoption is good - no doubt. But it isn't the answer. If all abortion stopped (which it never will) the government would have to start building orphanages for the unwanted children. However, putting unwanted children in an orphanage is better than killing them.

[Dr. Shane]

you make an interesting observation when you state that prolife groups disappear when abortion is banned. Since prolife groups in the US did not exist until after abortion was legalized isn't it a little speculative to project that they would fail to continue if abortion was recriminalized,since there is no past experience to base that assumption on?

All we have to do is look at countries where abortion is banned now. There are a lot of them.

The folks at Planned Parenthood are a bad group of people. They are not about choice. They want to see as many abortions performed as possible. In fact, there is evidence they may be racist as they place disproportionate number of their clinics in Hispanic and Black neighborhoods - almost like they want to kill off the minority babies. Planned Parenthood receives lots of federal funding. Crisis Pregnancy Centers, which help women in crisis pregnancies and discourage abortion, receive a small fraction of the funding Planned Parenthood receives. If Crisis Pregnancy Centers received the same level of funding as Planned Parenthood we would see a measurable drop in abortions in the US.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: karl

I never said I was against the Adventist church taking a stand against abortion. I'm for not judging a woman who decides to make that decision either way.

RW,wouldn't such a scenerio require that the church be against the woman's choice if she chose to abort?

[Steve Billiter]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

Tell that to all the foster kids waiting for someone to adopt them. [/quote']and the kids on the streets all over the world as well as the numerous orphanages.

oh thats right!! they arent a cute brand new little baby that one pretend is ones very own!!

karl, get your words right, they dont want a child, they want a baby!!

Perhaps if we all could unify upon the Spirit of Prophecy and do something about it, homeless children would have a home.

But it seems like most want to enumerate the "crisis" of unwanted pregnancies ad nasuem until those that transgress God's laws are made to be martyrs. The real crisis is the homeless children no one wants and the unborn killed on a daily basis.

Responsibility of the Church.--Fatherless and motherless children are thrown into the arms of the church, and Christ says to His followers: Take these destitute children, bring them up for Me, and ye shall receive your wages. I have seen much selfishness exhibited in these things. Unless there is some special

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evidence that they themselves are to be benefited by adopting into their family those who need homes, some turn away and answer: No. They do not seem to know or care whether such are saved or lost. That, they think, is not their business. With Cain they say: "Am I my brother's keeper?" They are not willing to be put to inconvenience or to make any sacrifice for the orphans, and they indifferently thrust such ones into the arms of the world, who are sometimes more willing to receive them than are these professed Christians.

In the day of God inquiry will be made for those whom Heaven gave them the opportunity of saving. But they wished to be excused, and would not engage in the good work unless they could make it a matter of profit to them. I have been shown that those who refuse these opportunities for doing good will hear from Jesus: "As ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to Me." Please read Isaiah 58: [verses 5-11]. {AH 167.4}

Isa 58:5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? will you call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?

Isa 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that you break every yoke?

Isa 58:7 Is it not to share your bread with the hungry, and that you bring the poor that are cast out to your house? when you see the naked, that you cover him; and that you hide not yourself from your own flesh?

Isa 58:8 Then shall your light break forth as the morning, and your health shall spring forth speedily: and your righteousness shall go before you; the glory of the LORD shall be your rear guard.

Isa 58:9 Then shall you call, and the LORD shall answer; you shall cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If you take away from the midst of you the yoke, the pointing of the finger, and speaking wickedness;

Isa 58:10 And if you draw out your soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall your light rise in the darkness, and your darkness be as the noon day:

Isa 58:11 And the LORD shall guide you continually, and satisfy your soul in drought, and strengthen your bones: and you shall be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.

An Appeal to Childless Couples.--Some who have not children of their own should educate themselves to love and care for the children of others. They may not be called to go to a foreign field of labor, but they may be called to work in the very locality in which they live. In place of giving so much attention to pets, lavishing affection upon dumb animals, let them exercise their talent upon human beings who have a heaven to win and a hell to shun. Let them give their attention to little children whose characters they may mold and fashion after the divine similitude. Place your love upon the homeless little ones that are around you. Instead of closing your heart to the members of the human family, see how many of these little homeless ones you can bring up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. There is an abundance

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of work for everyone who wants work to do. By engaging in this line of Christian endeavor, the church may be increased in members and enriched in spirit. The work of saving the homeless and the fatherless is everyone's business. {AH 168.1}

If those who have no children and whom God has made stewards of means would expand their hearts to care for children who need love, care, and affection, and assistance with this world's goods, they would be far happier than they are today. So long as youth who have not a father's pitying care nor a mother's tender love are exposed to the corrupting influences of these last days, it is somebody's duty to supply the place of father and mother to some of them. Learn to give them love, affection, and sympathy.

All who profess to have a Father in heaven, who they hope will care for them and finally take them to the home He has prepared for them, ought to feel a solemn obligation resting upon them to be friends to the friendless and fathers to the orphans, to aid the widows, and be of some practical use in this world by benefiting humanity. {AH 169.1}

Should Ministers' Wives Adopt Children?--The question has been asked whether a minister's wife should adopt infant children. I answer: if she has no inclination or fitness to engage in missionary work outside her home, and feels it her duty to take orphan children and care for them, she may do a good work. But let the choice of children be first made from among those who have been left orphans by Sabbathkeeping parents. God will bless men and women as they with willing hearts share their homes with these homeless ones. But if the minister's wife can herself act a part in the work of educating others, she should consecrate her powers to God as a Christian

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worker. She should be a true helper to her husband, assisting him in his work, improving her intellect, and helping to give the message. The way is open for humble, consecrated women, dignified by the grace of Christ, to visit those in need of help and shed light into discouraged souls. They can lift up the bowed down by praying with them and pointing them to Christ. Such should not devote their time and strength to one helpless little mortal that requires constant care and attention. They should not thus voluntarily tie their hands. {AH 169.2}

Open Homes to Orphans and Friendless.--As far as lies in your power, make a home for the homeless. Let everyone stand ready to act a part in helping forward this work. The Lord said to Peter: "Feed My lambs." This command is to us, and by opening our homes for the orphans we aid in its fulfillment. Let not Jesus be disappointed in you. {AH 170.1}

Take these children and present them to God as a fragrant offering. Ask His blessing upon them and then mold and fashion them according to Christ's order. Will our people accept this holy trust.? [NOTE: FOR FURTHER DETAILED COUNSEL ON THIS TOPIC SEE WELFARE MINISTRY.] {AH 170.2}

A Test for God's People.--Years ago I was shown that God's people would be tested upon this point of making homes for the homeless; that there would be many without homes in consequence of their believing the truth. Opposition and persecution would deprive believers of their homes, and it was the duty of those who had homes to open a wide door to those who had not. I have been shown more recently that God would specially test His professed people in reference to this matter.

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Christ for our sakes became poor that we through His poverty might be made rich. He made a sacrifice that He might provide a home for pilgrims and strangers in the world seeking for a better country, even an heavenly. {AH 170.3}

[doug yowell]

[steve Bilquote=liter]content removed

[doug yowell]

Imply, imply, but never directly say something....leaves you wiggle room, a favorite tactic of many. Oh, don't forget to through in a little piety!!! Always good for giving that innocent look!!!

The issue has really bogged down into 'I say' and 'you say' and skirting around the real essence of the thread topic...an obvious set up question ie, do you beat your wife? Its about the insinuation that the church is wrong, again, on a subject the certain people believe they have the answer too and the church is ignoring. Of course they believe the Bible backs their position. But does it? Throwing up a splatter of texts with words in them that are supposed to support their view with out the full context from which they were pulled is old hat. A preacher somewhere is doing that most every Saturday morning, good intentions, but laziness. That I am very much against, no matter which side of the subject I support.

The church does in fact have a belief on abortion, but does not believe the Bible speaks to the issue, in all the complications of the subject, that it is willing to set the issue in stone. Abortion as birth control wrong, abortion in cases of rape, incest, abuse, etc, a decision between the woman and God. Where do I get this information from, by talking to persons from within the church organization, even at the GC level.

If a person does not like that, so be it, we are not required to agree on all issues, the individual is expected their relationship with God be the guide, not others. Nor should anyone consider them self to be of such a stature as to assume what is right for another person or question their spirituality, and yes it is being done, just a lack of honesty in admitting such.

Nothing new is really being posted, just another of many rounds. Ding-ding-ding...round 652 or what ever!!

Co, What in the world are you talking about??Ding-ding-ding?