Is the Adventist Church Really Pro-life?

[there buster]

Quote:

Why should it be logical that all choices are based on the assumption that only God can hold us to account just because abortion is? That makes no sense. God gave us minds to think with. Saying that rape is okay because one chooses to do it is a non sequitor to the abortion issue. It's irrational thinking.

A woman facing an abortion issue does not need to be judged by anyone but God. It is between her and God.

It is logical unless you can demonstrate why abortion is different than all other moral choices.

I did not say that rape was OK. I did not mention it. I did mention theft and murder. Again, unless you make a solid case for abortion being qualitatively different than every other moral choice, then what applies in that case should apply to all.

[Woody]

Quote:

Why should it be logical that all choices are based on the assumption that only God can hold us to account just because abortion is? That makes no sense. God gave us minds to think with. Saying that rape is okay because one chooses to do it is a non sequitor to the abortion issue. It's irrational thinking.

A woman facing an abortion issue does not need to be judged by anyone but God. It is between her and God.

It is logical unless you can demonstrate why abortion is different than all other moral choices.

I did not say that rape was OK. I did not mention it. I did mention theft and murder. Again, unless you make a solid case for abortion being qualitatively different than every other moral choice, then what applies in that case should apply to all.

Please see post #318340

[there buster]

Quote:

Apparently you did not read the entire post of mine. I think I gave the answer to that there buster. I thought you were a better reader than that.

I did not think that your answer was serious. So, if we put murder to a vote, and people voted to decriminalize it, you would accept that?

People did accept slavery and voted to preserve it before the Civil War. If I understand your position correctly, the North never should have fought against the South, since the people there supported secession and slavery.

That does not strike me as a morally serious position.

[there buster]

Quote:

Please see post #318340

I did. Please see post #318400

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

What you posted makes my point. Restriction of abortion tends to reduce the number of abortion. Imagine what would happen if those restriction were to be increased by making abortion illegal in the entire country. Common sense, logic, and the data you provided indicates that such an action would further decrease the number of abortions.

No it doesn't. We need only look at Mexico or Kenya to see what happens when abortion is banned. In fact, when abortion is banned, the pro-life groups disappear and stop trying to reduce abortions. A black market takes root and abortions increase to a greater number than in countries where they are legal. Banning abortion clearly does not reduce abortion. If our goal is to reduce abortions, the proven way to do that is to keep it legal, pass restrictions, encourage contraceptives and pro-life counseling centers. That has a proven record of success. Banning abortion has a proven record of failure.

Shane,

Thank you for your answer! I feel like you are an individual I can reason with. You mention Mexico and Kenya, so my question to you is: Are we discussing Mexico and Kenya or the U.S.? If we are discussing those countries, then can you provide the source of your statistics? Should we believe you on the basis of “I said so”? Is your data from a credible source? Have the figures been inflated the way Dr. Nathanson and his cohorts inflated the figures in order to deceive the American public to accept the legalization of abortion in the U.S. back in 1973?

Can’t you see a pattern here? Those who would like to see abortion legalized in Mexico and Kenya might be using the same kind of deception in order to achieve the same end simply because they know full well that deception and lies did work in the U.S.! Dr. Nathanson [see a recent previous posting of mine!] did confess that the strategy worked because they fed the media with the result of fake surveys where the figures were inflated tenfold. Where the number of illegal abortions was 100 thousand, they claimed it was one million. Deception does work, especially when the desired outcome is palatable to the public and those engaged in the deceptive work operate on the basis of the idea that the end justifies the means.

[Nic Samojluk]

And where does this right come from? Who gave a woman the right to abortion? Does a man also have the right to commit adultery?

Good question! Said alleged "right" must have been manufactured in the pits of hell!

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

Thank you for the numbers.

I still maintain that a woman has the right to choose, it is between her and God, and I will not interfere with her choice.

And WHY? Because God created us with a free will.

Would you interfere if your neighbor were pulling his kid's arm and legs out of its sockets in front of your eyes? Would you argue that God granted your neighbor a free will? Wouldn't you call 911? I bet you would! This is exactly what the abortionist is doing. The only difference is that he is doing this to a baby which has not been born yet.

The duty of the government is to protect the life and property of every human being under its jurisdiction.

[Nic Samojluk]

The free will God gives us allows us the right to sin. So in that since, yes women have the right to abortion. Men have the right to rape. We all have the right to sin.

Great reasoning and crystal clear!

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

We all have the right to sin.

And praise God for that ...

Yes! And we have the right to choose hell over heaven; death over life. But we do not have the moral right to make said choice for another. We have no right to choose hell for another, and we have no right to choose death for another human being.

We do not have the right to kill our neighbor. The question is: Is a baby the woman's neighbor? The original meaning of neighbor is: someone close to you. Is a baby close to the woman's heart?

[Nic Samojluk]

The issue here is ... do you intend to make a law that every human being be required to go to church on Saturday?

Going to church on the wrong day of the week does not result in a dead baby! Does it? Let's compare apples with apples!

[Woody]

Quote:

We do not have the right to kill our neighbor.

We most certainly do.

God gave us this right.

Does not Satan destroy? Who gives HIM this right?

All evil is from Satan. Satan has control over this evil world. This is HIS domain. And WHO gives him that right?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

The issue here is ... do you intend to make a law that every human being be required to go to church on Saturday?

Going to church on the wrong day of the week does not result in a dead baby! Does it? Let's compare apples with apples!

I think keeping the Sabbath is just as important as not killing. But then we may differ. God states that sin is sin. You commit one sin and you are guilty of all.

But of prime imporance is the fourth commandment. Why do you think it is in the heart of the Law. I think you are treading on dangerous ground to try to belittle the Sabbath.

[Woody]

Quote:

Please see post #318340

I did. Please see post #318400

I did. But I didn't think you were really serious about it.

[Nic Samojluk]

Any time you try to control a large population with morals that are not accepted by a majority ... you will have discord. This is why I asked if we were prepared to vote for imposing the Sabbath on the general population.

There needs to be some kind of compromise that will keep both sides in check. I for one refuse to impose my personal belief that abortion is a sin ... upon others. Just like I refuse to impose ANY of my religious beliefs on others when it is not generally accepted by the majority of the population. And I mean the vast majority.

Fair enough! Nevertheless, we are talking about depriving human innocent beings of their most prized possession: Life, and the duty of the government is to protect the lives of the human beings under its jurisdiction.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Any time you try to control a large population with morals that are not accepted by a majority ... you will have discord. This is why I asked if we were prepared to vote for imposing the Sabbath on the general population.

There needs to be some kind of compromise that will keep both sides in check. I for one refuse to impose my personal belief that abortion is a sin ... upon others. Just like I refuse to impose ANY of my religious beliefs on others when it is not generally accepted by the majority of the population. And I mean the vast majority.

Fair enough! Nevertheless, we are talking about depriving human innocent beings of their most prized possession: Life, and the duty of the government is to protect the lives of the human beings under its jurisdiction.

Yes. I think it is a great cause. But the majority of Americans don't. And you want to impose YOUR will on them? Like I stated earlier ... this would be no different than trying to impose the Sabbath on America. And both are very important in His eyes.

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

I for one refuse to impose my personal belief that abortion is a sin ... upon others.

O.K. then how about these:

I for one refuse to impose my personal belief that stealing is a sin ... upon others.

I for one refuse to impose my personal belief that slavery is a sin ... upon others.

I for one refuse to impose my personal belief that murder is a sin ... upon others.

Excellent! Why didn't I think of this kind of response?

[Nic Samojluk]

Apparently you did not read the entire post of mine. I think I gave the answer to that there buster. I thought you were a better reader than that.

Could you please identify either the comments or the person you are responding to? Some of us do not have access to a crystal ball!

[Woody]

Quote:

Excellent! Why didn't I think of this kind of response?

IMHO ... there is nothing excellent about this response.

The vast majority Americans agree that stealing , slavery and murder are sins and not desireable for our nation.

On the contrary ... with the issue of abortion ... there is not this concensus. In fact ... the majority of Americans feel it is a sin to refuse abortion.

Thus we have a big difference. So the response is worthless.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Apparently you did not read the entire post of mine. I think I gave the answer to that there buster. I thought you were a better reader than that.

Could you please identify either the comments or the person you are responding to? Some of us do not have access to a crystal ball!

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

you make an interesting observation when you state that prolife groups disappear when abortion is banned. Since prolife groups in the US did not exist until after abortion was legalized isn't it a little speculative to project that they would fail to continue if abortion was recriminalized,since there is no past experience to base that assumption on?

All we have to do is look at countries where abortion is banned now. There are a lot of them.

The folks at Planned Parenthood are a bad group of people. They are not about choice. They want to see as many abortions performed as possible. In fact, there is evidence they may be racist as they place disproportionate number of their clinics in Hispanic and Black neighborhoods - almost like they want to kill off the minority babies. Planned Parenthood receives lots of federal funding. Crisis Pregnancy Centers, which help women in crisis pregnancies and discourage abortion, receive a small fraction of the funding Planned Parenthood receives. If Crisis Pregnancy Centers received the same level of funding as Planned Parenthood we would see a measurable drop in abortions in the US.

Yes, your arguments sound as reasonable to me!

[Nic Samojluk]

what part of this is not going to be on this forum do you not understand?

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

Why should it be logical that all choices are based on the assumption that only God can hold us to account just because abortion is? That makes no sense. God gave us minds to think with. Saying that rape is okay because one chooses to do it is a non sequitor to the abortion issue. It's irrational thinking.

A woman facing an abortion issue does not need to be judged by anyone but God. It is between her and God.

It is logical unless you can demonstrate why abortion is different than all other moral choices.

I did not say that rape was OK. I did not mention it. I did mention theft and murder. Again, unless you make a solid case for abortion being qualitatively different than every other moral choice, then what applies in that case should apply to all.

Good answer and excellent logic!

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

Apparently you did not read the entire post of mine. I think I gave the answer to that there buster. I thought you were a better reader than that.

I did not think that your answer was serious. So, if we put murder to a vote, and people voted to decriminalize it, you would accept that?

People did accept slavery and voted to preserve it before the Civil War. If I understand your position correctly, the North never should have fought against the South, since the people there supported secession and slavery.

That does not strike me as a morally serious position.

Yes! Slavery was morally wrong and killing innocent human being is morally wrong as well. The time is ripe to outlaw all kinds of murder!

[doug yowell]

what part of this is not going to be on this forum do you not understand?

Stan, the topic under discussion is "Is the Adventist Church Really Prolife?.Isn't that deleted post directly related to the topic? Couldn't some of the tragic details have been exorcised while leaving the gist as evidence? You still haven't answered my previous question. I don't demand neutrality from any moderator but doesn't objectivity lend to a more open invironment?While the topic seems to drift away at times,it seems to me that this particular example does not. This thread contains a number of direct attacks on the "cold hearted","hateful","uncaring",ect...ect... characters who oppose abortion (don't worry,we're used to it so we can handle it)so why is a story of a well known SDA who owns 17 abortion clinics taboo? I'm not trying to be argumentative I just honestly don't understand.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Going to church on the wrong day of the week does not result in a dead baby! Does it? Let's compare apples with apples!

I think keeping the Sabbath is just as important as not killing. But then we may differ. God states that sin is sin. You commit one sin and you are guilty of all.

But of prime imporance is the fourth commandment. Why do you think it is in the heart of the Law. I think you are treading on dangerous ground to try to belittle the Sabbath.

Redwood is correct that Sabbath observance is stipulated in God's moral law just as is the prohibition against murder.

LIFE ADVOCATES: Please listen up!

There are people contributing to this thread who are obfuscating the self-evident truth that it is morally wrong to kill babies. This is a truth we can all take to the bank UNLESS YOU ARE LIVING IN THE OLD TESTAMENT AND HAVE A DIRECTIVE FROM GOD TO EXECUTE JUDGEMENT AGAINST AN ENTIRE CULTURE. Anyone living in Old Testament times with a directive from God is off the hook here.

Keep bringing the evidence. Disregard the curve balls.