Is the Adventist Church Really Pro-life?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Shane

Please don't ask me to repeat myself over and over.

Are you the only one entitled to repeat yourself again and again?

does any one other than i see the fallacy in this?

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

straw man argument... No one has deleted your opinions here. In fact, your *ahem* dissertation was given access and people could read it. Your credentials as an authority were checked, and found wanting. Every time you write something you show your bias and prejudice. It's really sad.

Why are you being so hard on Nic, Pam? He hasn't done anything to you. I liked his dissertation. I thought it was well researched, and well written. It was also very informative.

Evidently, she is the only unbiased poster on this thread. This is why I decided to ignore her comments. I prefer to talk to opinionated and very biased individuals. Those with a strong backbone.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

If you read the thread, you will find that his PhD is from a nonaccredited online school. Nic set himself up as an authority when he brought up the fact of his having a PhD. It is basically worthless, I'm sorry to say.

He dissertation is biased and prejudiced from the outset. It is unprofessionally written. I've addressed specifics in the thread. That is my own opinion. You can disagree if you like.

I'm sorry you feel I'm being hard on Nic, but when someone comes in to the forum waving a tomahawk and wearing a warbonnet, my antennae go up, and my reaction is wary, at best.

I didn't see him as coming in here waving a tomahawk and wearing a warbonnet, I'm the one who started the thread. I think he is a very humble man. And about the accreditation, he still had to do the work regardless, and he knew the college wasn't accredited. He spent ten years of his life on it.

I know you are entitled to your opinion and all, but it sure would be nice if you could cut my friend some slack. He is only speaking out about his convictions, and what he believes in. Some people have strong convictions to take up certain causes, and they can no more deny their convictions than they could stop breathing on command.

He is one of those.

Richard,

I do know why she is so adamant in her determination to destroy my reputation: simply because I asked her to provide me some evidence that my thesis was in error. My thesis was: The Adventist church has departed from its original pro-life attitude towards abortion. I also asked her to provide me with factual errors in my dissertation in order to give me a chance to correct them. She never complied. Can you guess why? Here her silence is quite eloquent!

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Yes. If the Sabbath is attacked, the church reacts in a violent manner; if smoking is defended, the church goes into a tail spin; nevertheless, when fifty million of innocent babies are butchered, the church defends the right to choose...

I think this is a gross mischaracterization of the church's position.

I will share with the following data and you can draw your own conclusions:

Consider the following: I counted 242 articles dealing with the issue of abortion in our Adventist Periodical Index between 1971 and 2006. Between 1984 and 1993 I counted 144, but the following decade the number was reduced to 30. And since then it has been almost dead silence.

Now compare this silence with our favorite subject, the Sabbath. I located 21,324 articles dealing with said topic for the 1971-2006 years in our Periodical Index. This fact seems to suggest that for us the most important subject is sacred time, human life is not. Aren’t we as a church repeating the mistake made by the Jews who crucified the Author of Life? They killed Jesus, the most innocent being in the universe, but rushed to keep God’s Sabbath holy.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

A Statement I would like to make is this, anyone who has had an abortion is more than welcome on ClubAdventist.com without any condemnation or judgement.

pk

Jesus said to the woman who was caught in adultery: "Neither do I condemn thee. Go and sin no more." This is where we are erring as a church. We say to women who choose to kill their own unborn babies: "Neither to I condemn you." This kind of Gospel is incomplete and leaves women sadled with guilt. There is no repentance and no forgiveness, and our sisters are left without the peace which passes understanding.

[Nic Samojluk]

Excellent, Excellent post Shane, I think those of us that have mentioned we believe in choice had this in mind. Because there is no doubt that if they make abortion illegal that's exactly what would happen. If I'm not mistaken that is the way it was many years ago, that's why they did make it legal, because to many girl's die because they went for these quick fix abortionist doctors who were just interested in making money.

pk

Sorry to remind you that, acording to Planned Parenthood's, the main provider of abortions in the U.S., there were reported 744,600 abortions for 1973, but it mushroomed to a million by 1975 and to a million and a half by 1983. This tells you the tragic result of the legalization of abortion.

Do you think that because some girls were seeking illegal abortions before 1973 that it was justified to facilitate the killing of nearly a million extra innocent babies who would otherwise have lived?

Where are the 50 million missing babies? Had we refrained from being deceived by the abortion industry, they would be by now productive members of society and helping to support with their contributions to the welfare of the almost bankrupt retirement fund.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Shane,

Would you extend the same kind of leniency to other morally prohibited acts in the Decalogue like stealing, for example.

I do think a judge should be more lenient on someone that steals in order to feed his or her family or pay their rent. And I think many judges do show leniency in those situations. However that is not comparable to the panic a girl deals with in a crisis pregnancy.

A better comparison is a man in a boat being swept away in the current of a waterfall. In his panic he throws a rope to shore and trespasses on someone's property. I would not expect such a person to be prosecuted for trespassing.

I am not comparing killing the unborn child to trespassing. I am comparing the panic of a girl in a crisis pregnancy with the panic of a person about to go over a waterfall.

Shane,

Thanks for trying; nevertheless the comparison is inappropriate, because a girl about to go over a waterfall is almost sure to loose her life. In the case of pregnancy there is no such risk. Actually, carrying the pregnancy to term is safer than abortion. You need to read the book entitled “Lime 5” by Mark Krutcher.” He documents the tragic results of botched abortions.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

I agree those are truly important things, but when you call them "the truly important things" as opposed to what we are talking about here, you are saying in effect, that the life of a baby is not important.

There is no text that says: "Come ye blessed of my Father, for when I was in danger of bad things happening, you snuffed out my life before I could be born.

Excellent response!

[Nic Samojluk]

Has he ordered us to kill babies?

God question. We have no right to play God!

[teresaq]

Where are the 50 million missing babies? Had we refrained from being deceived by the abortion industry, they would be by now productive members of society and helping to support with their contributions to the welfare of the almost bankrupt retirement fund.

says who, nic?!? we have no idea of whether they would have been "productive" members of society or druggies/drunks, etc.

we do not know and therefore should not lie!

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

That is not true. There are people who believe in choice who are also concerned and care about the "moral morass"...

RW' date=' Actions speak louder than words. So I'll ask one more time. Name and identify 3 ministries that the pro-choice community has established for the woman in need? Which ministry does the guilt laden woman (or man) go to AFTER the child has been aborted? Which "redemptive" pro-choice ministry does the perfectly healthy unborn go to before the choice is to be made? Or after? [/quote']

Good response! I will repeat here what I stated before. I did send pro-life donations both to my local church and to the General conference. The funds were each time returned with the note: "The church does not have a pro-life program in existence." How can it have a pro-life program if the attitude of those in charge is a pro-choice. And let's not forget that pro-choice is pro-choice to kill babies. Such a choice is abhorrent to the Lord.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Actually, Nic,It wasn't a rebutt ("I like rebutts and I cannot lie"). It was an honest,inquirey. Sorry. Now look at what I've started!!

Correction: Thanks for the rebuttal. I stand rebutted! Next time I rebut someone, I will use the proper rebuttal term. Or perhaps I will refrain from all rebuttals; that way I will not run the risk of being rebutted.

[Guest]

But Butt and Rebutt..

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Why are you being so hard on Nic, Pam? He hasn't done anything to you. I liked his dissertation. I thought it was well researched, and well written. It was also very informative.

Evidently, she is the only unbiased poster on this thread. This is why I decided to ignore her comments. I prefer to talk to opinionated and very biased individuals. Those with a strong backbone. [/quote']

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

!!como que "sarcasm"!! the woman gave you a compliment inside of a very "something" comment.

unless you want to be called bigoted....which is basically what she is saying those that are like her, and follow her, are.

[teresaq]

here you are playing God as if you knew the future.

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

And let's not forget that pro-choice is pro-choice to kill babies. Such a choice is abhorrent to the Lord. [/quote']and here you are speaking as if for God.

your definition of pro-choice is a lie, by the way.

[Steve Billiter]

"Excellent, Excellent post Shane, I think those of us that have mentioned we believe in choice had this in mind. Because there is no doubt that if they make abortion illegal that's exactly what would happen. If I'm not mistaken that is the way it was many years ago, that's why they did make it legal, because to many girl's die because they went for these quick fix abortionist doctors who were just interested in making money."

pk

The problem lies deeper than this. It makes no sense to me to trample upon God's commandments and then try to just "fix' the sin by killing unborn babies

Exo 20:14 You shall not commit adultery.

Breaking this commandment lies at the root of all sexual sin, it protects the sanctity of marriage and the family, and prevents unwanted pregnancies ensuring the the happiness of the family relationships.

1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man does is outside the body; but he that commits fornication sins against his own body.

Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

The 7th commandment covers all sex outside of marriage including homosexuality and other sins.

Its instructive to me that instead of killing babies in preparation for another round of illicit sex, why not teach them the gospel? When one is converted, they no longer fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

It is not up to the mother to choose death for her unborn, she does not own her own body, much less anyone else's.Every person who has ever lived owes their life to the sacrifice of Christ on the cross so mankind would have an extended probation lasting about 6000 years. God as Creator and Redeemer, really owns everyone and everything. His title, authority, and seal is found in the heart of the Ten Commandments.

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day: therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man does is outside the body; but he that commits fornication sins against his own body.

1Co 6:19 What? know you not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have of God, and you are not your own?

1Co 6:20 For you are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Jesus covenanted with the Father when sin appeared to pay the redemption price for guilty man.

One may say it doesn't matter if the mother is not a Christian and could care less about the Bible and God. Thats why the gospel is preached to the world

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap.

Why should those who fornicate without a marriage commitment be granted abortion to continue the sin unabated? If she dies at the hands of an abortionist, its very tragic and very sad, but the wages of sin is death and when one rejects Christ, there could be eternal loss at any moment.

Thats also part of my point. Why would professing Christians choose and promote the pro-choice agenda thus circumventing God's natural laws? Isn't that being a co-dependent for the fornicator, and trampling on God''s laws?

Ecc 8:11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

We are not discussing rape or the health of the mother here, although we can make some distinctions upon that as well.

Why just compound the sin and transgression? The end of all things is at hand; its past time we get our selves ready for the return of Jesus!

Luk 18:6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge said.

Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, who cry day and night unto him, though He bears long with them?

Luk 18:8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man comes, shall he find faith on the earth?

The helpless unborn children that are aborted in their innocence cry out to God for life and justice, who will speak for them?

Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

Isa 11:8 And the nursing child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder’s den.

We are not told whether unborn children will be given life in heaven, but do they not deserve a chance for eternal life since Jesus has paid the price for them too?

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

There is no way that anyone can know with absolute certainty that there are more women who oppose elective abortion than support it. No way. And that's a fact.

Don't want to confuse anybody with facts, but a recent Quinnipiac University survey shows opposition to abortion

American voters mostly disapprove of the pro-abortion health care bill, by a 53-36 percent margin.

They also disapprove of pro-abortion President Barack Obama's handling of the health care issue by a similar 56-38 percent margin, the new survey showed.

But abortion funding draws strenuous opposition from the American public, regardless of political persuasion, with 72 percent saying they oppose "using any public money in the health care overhaul to pay for abortions" and just 23 percent saying they favor it.

The poll found Republicans oppose funding abortions in the health care bill at a 91-5 percent clip, Democrats oppose it 54-38 percent, and independents oppose it 74-23 percent.

Men oppose taxpayer funded abortions on a 73-21 percent margin while women also oppose it by a 70-25 percent margin. Whites opposed it 72-23 percent while blacks oppose abortion funding 67-20 percent.

----------

Entire article here: http://www.lifenews.com/nat5804.html

By the way, the poll was taken in extremely liberal waters. The University is in Camden, Connecticut - a very blue state.

Very relevant. Thanks for the info!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Such a choice is abhorrent to the Lord.

So Nic Samojluk is now the voice of God.

[Nic Samojluk]

I'm not if favor of killing anyone, but I don't think you have grasped the impact of what you tried to say above. It should go like this: Millions of unborn babies killed versus a handful of baby killers killed. In this war, the babies are losing.

Everybody knows this. It is self-evident. Not enough people care.

Yes! It is quite evident!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

There is no repentance and no forgiveness, and our sisters are left without the peace which passes understanding.

More quotes from Nic, the voice of God. **snort**

This is such a private thing between a woman and God I honestly cannot believe you are setting yourself up to be judge and jury.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

Originally Posted By: karl

Are you then claiming that there would be MORE Adventist abortions if the church took a stand like that of the Adventist Pioneers? If you believe the conclusion Nic drew from his premise does not reasonably follow, what do you propose WOULD reasonably follow? [/quote']karl, for real!!

presenting an ------ claim and accusing the other person of it is -------.

as i said, stuff just starts coming out without reason or rhyme!

and nic has not proven his claim, in spite of his thousands and thousands of words!

or perhaps you could start providing the "proof", yourself instead of just making claims?

You're going to have to elucidate, Teresa. I have no idea what you mean by what you wrote above. I'm not making any claims other than suggesting that Nic's conclusion is a reasonable one, even if you disagree with it.

Nic said fewer Adventist women would choose abortion if the church took a stand similar to that of the Adventist Pioneers. Pam said Nic's conclusion was a non sequitur.

So if, as Pam says, Nic's conclusion does not reasonably follow from his premise, what do you think DOES reasonably follow from Nic's premise?

What do you think would happen to the choices of Adventist women who have unwanted pregnancies if the SDA church came out against abortion the way the Adventist Pioneers did? Do you think the choices for abortion would rise or fall?

Straightforward question. I don't understand all the protest.

Karl,

I gave up on trying to reason with Pam and Teresa a long time ago. It is a waste of time. Time is sacred and I can use it for something more productive. But thanks for defending my argument! You have been a blessing here!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

So if, as Pam says, Nic's conclusion does not reasonably follow from his premise, what do you think DOES reasonably follow from Nic's premise?

It's a biased premise, and nothing constitutes a reasonable conclusion. It's a poor dissertation. I'm sorry you spent 10 years on it.

[Nic Samojluk]

"Excellent, Excellent post Shane, I think those of us that have mentioned we believe in choice had this in mind. Because there is no doubt that if they make abortion illegal that's exactly what would happen. If I'm not mistaken that is the way it was many years ago, that's why they did make it legal, because to many girl's die because they went for these quick fix abortionist doctors who were just interested in making money."

pk

The problem lies deeper than this. It makes no sense to me to trample upon God's commandments and then try to just "fix' the sin by killing unborn babies

Exo 20:14 You shall not commit adultery.

Breaking this commandment lies at the root of all sexual sin, it protects the sanctity of marriage and the family, and prevents unwanted pregnancies ensuring the the happiness of the family relationships.

1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man does is outside the body; but he that commits fornication sins against his own body.

Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

The 7th commandment covers all sex outside of marriage including homosexuality and other sins.

Its instructive to me that instead of killing babies in preparation for another round of illicit sex, why not teach them the gospel? When one is converted, they no longer fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

It is not up to the mother to choose death for her unborn, she does not own her own body, much less anyone else's.Every person who has ever lived owes their life to the sacrifice of Christ on the cross so mankind would have an extended probation lasting about 6000 years. God as Creator and Redeemer, really owns everyone and everything. His title, authority, and seal is found in the heart of the Ten Commandments.

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day: therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man does is outside the body; but he that commits fornication sins against his own body.

1Co 6:19 What? know you not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have of God, and you are not your own?

1Co 6:20 For you are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Jesus covenanted with the Father when sin appeared to pay the redemption price for guilty man.

One may say it doesn't matter if the mother is not a Christian and could care less about the Bible and God. Thats why the gospel is preached to the world

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap.

Why should those who fornicate without a marriage commitment be granted abortion to continue the sin unabated? If she dies at the hands of an abortionist, its very tragic and very sad, but the wages of sin is death and when one rejects Christ, there could be eternal loss at any moment.

Thats also part of my point. Why would professing Christians choose and promote the pro-choice agenda thus circumventing God's natural laws? Isn't that being a co-dependent for the fornicator, and trampling on God''s laws?

Ecc 8:11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

We are not discussing rape or the health of the mother here, although we can make some distinctions upon that as well.

Why just compound the sin and transgression? The end of all things is at hand; its past time we get our selves ready for the return of Jesus!

Luk 18:6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge said.

Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, who cry day and night unto him, though He bears long with them?

Luk 18:8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man comes, shall he find faith on the earth?

The helpless unborn children that are aborted in their innocence cry out to God for life and justice, who will speak for them?

Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

Isa 11:8 And the nursing child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder’s den.

We are not told whether unborn children will be given life in heaven, but do they not deserve a chance for eternal life since Jesus has paid the price for them too?

Excellent post. I am glad there are still Adventists who can interpret the Bible correctly!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

thanks for defending my argument!

because you certainly couldn't do it..