Is the Adventist Church Really Pro-life?

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Doug Yowell

there are more women who oppose elective abortion than support it.

Prove it.

Why? It would only be dismissed as "irrelevent" by you!!Look it up for yourself if you dare. I won't hold my breath.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

There is no way that anyone can know with absolute certainty that there are more women who oppose elective abortion than support it. No way. And that's a fact.

[doug yowell]

Quote:

Karl, until you become a woman and are put in a situation where you need to make a choice, you have no business telling anyone what they should or should not do in the case of abortion. It is between the woman and God. Not between the woman and Nic or Doug or Karl or anyone else.

Quote:

Sorry RW, no can do. Nic, Karl and Doug have to answer to a higher authority! OUR WIVES told us we had to represent their opinions whenever abortion was discussed without them or sleep on the couch! So we chose the former option. But,just in case they were wrong in their anti-abortion sentiments, I took the liberty of asking some other women how they approached the situation.

I asked former Adventist Patti McKinney, founder of Women Exploited by Abortion (WEBA); former SDA Teresa Beem (founder of Adventists For Life); Mother Teresa (Teresa Beem's mother?; Kate Lindsay, M.D.(pioneer of SDA nursing work and renown olive taster); Beverly LaHaye (Concerned Women of America); Norma McCorvey (Roe of Roe V. Wade); Sandra Cano (Doe of Doe v. Bolton); Millie Youngberg, Ed.D., Emeritus Professor (SDA); two former Planned Parenthood Abortion clinic managers; Joni Erickson Tada (quadrapelegic); Gianna Gesson (abortion survivor); and Corrie Ten Boom (holocaust survivor)WHEW! This is exhausting! Anyway, they were all sympathetic to our wive's point of view so what do you expect us to do,divorce them?

P.S. Did I happen to mention that every poll ever taken shows that the % of women who oppose abortion is greater than the % of men who oppose it?

Doug,

Wow! That's an impressive list. I would only add that if nine male unelected Justices of the Court were responsible for voiding the right to life of a large segment of the human race, then other men have the sacred responsibility of undoing the greatest injustice committed against humanity. Did I mention that those nine men were male?

Doug, I took the liberty of correcting some of your punctuation marks. I hope you don't mind!

Whatsapunctuationmark?

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

To me; it is very disturbing to see professing Adventists follow suit, using slightly different pet theories; yet with the exact same results. Almost every anti-abortion source one could name has become fanaticism or worse.

i also was shocked when i came back into the church in 2000 to see adventists had swallowed hook, line and sinker what i consider the unifying of the churches with both the abortion and homosexual issues. it does seem to me that the more "dedicated" one becomes to the so-called "pro-life" movement the less they consider the mandates of the bible and the more unstable mentally they become. stuff just starts coming out of their mouths that make no sense whatever. as i see it.

Quote:

When I was more graphic above regarding the abortion process; it was more some nasty memories I had from my nursing days. it wasn't even intended to really judge anyone in particular; I just can't imagine what women go through who actually have it done. I do agree, people should know what they are getting into if they want an abortion; but in some cases; it may not be for the best to be so graphic. Especially if it was known the woman's life was in danger if she had a baby.

i can imagine. i am sure i would cry my heart out at seeing it performed, but at the same time i have a more "logical" approach to life. yes, the baby may be experiencing at least discomfort, but for a few moments, compared to the millions of children who suffer much longer through child abuse/neglect, slow painful starvation, to name but two of an ugly, ugly list. another one, the children sold into prostitution. another one, infant girls raped because it is erronously believed sex with a virgin will cure aids.

these break my heart so much, much more!! and nics seeming calloused response that he will worry about the unborn and i can worry about the born!! how can our hearts be so calloused and hardened?!?

dont those situations make us want to run out and do something to relieve the pain and suffering of so many helpless born beings?

I'm sorry Teresa. That's really twisted!!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

What part of Teresa's comment did you not understand? I thought she was very clear.

[doug yowell]

There is no way that anyone can know with absolute certainty that there are more women who oppose elective abortion than support it. No way. And that's a fact.

RW, if every legit poll ever taken reveals that the majority of women in the US oppose elective abortion wouldn't that carry some weight?(Notice that I'm talking ELECTIVE) I refuse to mix the 3-5% of all abortions into any discussion until we're agreed that elective abortion should be eliminated.I wouldn't permit elective burglery because 3-5% of theives stole so that they could eat.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Polls are simply statistics, and may not accurately represent the truth of the matter. To know with absolute certainty, you would need to ask every woman on earth, and that simply isn't possible.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

RW' date=' Actions speak louder than words. So I'll ask one more time. Name and identify 3 ministries that the pro-choice community has established for the woman in need? Which ministry does the guilt laden woman (or man) go to AFTER the child has been aborted? Which "redemptive" pro-choice ministry does the perfectly healthy unborn go to before the choice is to be made? Or after? [/quote']

If you will reflect upon what I wrote, I said there are PEOPLE who believe in choice who are also concerned. I said NOTHING about MINISTRIES. And I don't believe in a "redemptive" ministry for a woman who has had an abortion. If a woman believes she has sinned, she can go straight to the Man upstairs and ask for forgiveness.

Pam, I needed no reflection. I saw exactly what you wrote and you prove my point.You have NOTHING to offer to the woman in this position!But you do your best to stop anyone who would. I rest my case.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I especially like this quote:

it does seem to me that the more "dedicated" one becomes to the so-called "pro-life" movement the less they consider the mandates of the bible and the more unstable mentally they become. stuff just starts coming out of their mouths that make no sense whatever.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Pam, I needed no reflection. I saw exactly what you wrote and you prove my point.You have NOTHING to offer to the woman in this position!But you do your best to stop anyone who would. I rest my case.

You have no case to rest. And you have no point to make. You don't know what I would or would not do, aside from not judging. So your statement above is not true.

[Nic Samojluk]

I made it quite clear and very graphic how much I am repulsed by abortions; but I am also trying to make equally clear that it is not apostasy to feel sympathy for those who need it, to lend a hearing ear, and a seeing eye,for the one who comes to us with abject fear in their hearts because of an impossible decision they had to make.

Overaged,

I agree that women deserve love and mercy. Fortunately, there is a way to be loving and merciful to both the pregnant woman and to her developing baby. It is called ADOPTION. In Chapter 12:30 Paul describes a “more excellent way.” I hope you will agree with me that adoption is a more excellent way than killing the woman’s baby.

Mercy towards the woman faced with an unwanted pregnancy should not be offered at the expense of her baby's life who deserves mercy as well. Pregnancy is temporary; death is permanent. Life is more sacred than lifestyle, wouldn’t you agree?

[Nic Samojluk]

Overaged,You seem quick to make judgments on the hidden motives of the OP yet you agree with his conclusions (that the guidelines are pro-choice).Why is your support of the church's abortion guidelines not a convenient platform for your attempts to discredit the OP? I have no "ax to grind" and have done much of the same research,and have arrived at the exact same conclusions

[Nic Samojluk]

3) In practical, tangible ways the Church as a supportive community should express its commitment to the value of human life. These ways should include:

a. strengthening family relationships

b. educating both genders concerning Christian principles of human sexuality

c. emphasizing responsibility of both male and female for family planning

d. calling both to be responsible for the consequences of behaviors that are inconsistent with Christian principles

e. creating a safe climate for ongoing discussion of the moral questions associated with abortion

f. offering support and assistance to women who choose to complete crisis pregnancies

g. encouraging and assisting fathers to participate responsibly in the parenting of their children.

The Church also should commit itself to assist in alleviating the unfortunate social, economic, and psychological factors that add to abortion and to care redemptively for those suffering the consequences of individual decisions on this issue

[Nic Samojluk]

We can take our politically correct non-involvement to the place where we are no longer an influence. If we are not an influence for better, what does that make us? There is no neutral ground. Since the prevailing influence is downward in its spiral, we must be actively upward or we are assisting the downward flow with our mass.

Karl,

I agree. Notice what one of the well-known Adventist pioneers said about our privilege and duty to participate in the public forum concening moral issues:

Uriah Smith

Quote:

"You show me a church that fails to take a stand on political issues that involve moral principles, and Ill show you a church that is spineless, irrelevant, and morally bankrupt. . . . No issue is too controversial for us to address and honestly in pages of our church paper." http://letsfocusonlife.com .

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

I was trying to illustrate that there is no difference between slow suicide, or fast suicide. There is no difference between abortions and many other medical practices, IF they result in premeditated terminating of a life; be it born or unborn.

If you have ever worked in palliative care or on a maternity ward; you would soon see that what you say is innaccurate.

The point being is that the medical profession with all of it's technical wizardry is fraught with risks to life and limb; it isn't just abortion. You can't just stop it all and call it all murder or genocide. It's not that simple.

While I appreciate your sensitivity to the difficulty we face making decisions in end-of-life and palliative care, I must submit to you that you are lumping apples and oranges above. It's true they are both fruits, but they are not even remotely the same as a simple bite of each will demonstrate.

There is a huge difference between deliberately killing that person who, if left alone, would gradually become more independent and self-sustaining (a baby,) and the pulling of the plug on that person who, if left alone, will die on his/her own (I had to do this with my father a year ago.)

Huge difference. Not even in the same category.

Now, if you are referring to assisted, deliberate suicide of those who are functional, but suffer from chronic pain, there is an inkling more similarity, but just barely. The baby has no pain and no desire to die. The killing of the baby is exclusively for the benefit of those other than the one being killed.

Great posting! You are showing evidence of clear thinking and a wisdom not commonly found among Adventists. I pray and hope the Lord will continue to bless your efforts to guide Adventists towards the right path.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Now, please apply what I said about stealing money to the stealing of life from innocent victims. Do this and tell me why you still believe that I am misinterpreting the real and true meaning of the Adventist guidelines on abortion.

irrelevant

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

This unwanted pregnancy is beginning to affect my mental health—which means she is depressed.

I know of a case where the woman committed suicide. That's a bit more than being "depressed"... She had "counseling" to continue the pregnancy, when she felt it was wrong to do so because she had been raped.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

...some Adventists have become filthy rich as a result of their ownership of many abortion clinics.

That's none of your business. It's also gossip.

[karl]

There is no way that anyone can know with absolute certainty that there are more women who oppose elective abortion than support it. No way. And that's a fact.

Don't want to confuse anybody with facts, but a recent Quinnipiac University survey shows opposition to abortion

American voters mostly disapprove of the pro-abortion health care bill, by a 53-36 percent margin.

They also disapprove of pro-abortion President Barack Obama's handling of the health care issue by a similar 56-38 percent margin, the new survey showed.

But abortion funding draws strenuous opposition from the American public, regardless of political persuasion, with 72 percent saying they oppose "using any public money in the health care overhaul to pay for abortions" and just 23 percent saying they favor it.

The poll found Republicans oppose funding abortions in the health care bill at a 91-5 percent clip, Democrats oppose it 54-38 percent, and independents oppose it 74-23 percent.

Men oppose taxpayer funded abortions on a 73-21 percent margin while women also oppose it by a 70-25 percent margin. Whites opposed it 72-23 percent while blacks oppose abortion funding 67-20 percent.

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Entire article here: http://www.lifenews.com/nat5804.html

By the way, the poll was taken in extremely liberal waters. The University is in Camden, Connecticut - a very blue state.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

it does seem to me that the more "dedicated" one becomes to the so-called "pro-life" movement the less they consider the mandates of the bible and the more unstable mentally they become. stuff just starts coming out of their mouths that make no sense whatever.

Just so.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

There is no way that anyone can know with absolute certainty that there are more women who oppose elective abortion than support it. No way. And that's a fact.

Don't want to confuse anybody with facts, but a recent Quinnipiac University survey shows opposition to abortion

American voters mostly disapprove of the pro-abortion health care bill, by a 53-36 percent margin.

They also disapprove of pro-abortion President Barack Obama's handling of the health care issue by a similar 56-38 percent margin, the new survey showed.

But abortion funding draws strenuous opposition from the American public, regardless of political persuasion, with 72 percent saying they oppose "using any public money in the health care overhaul to pay for abortions" and just 23 percent saying they favor it.

The poll found Republicans oppose funding abortions in the health care bill at a 91-5 percent clip, Democrats oppose it 54-38 percent, and independents oppose it 74-23 percent.

Men oppose taxpayer funded abortions on a 73-21 percent margin while women also oppose it by a 70-25 percent margin. Whites opposed it 72-23 percent while blacks oppose abortion funding 67-20 percent.

----------

By the way, the poll was taken in extremely liberal waters. The University is in Camden, Connecticut - a very blue state.

The article doesn't state how many people were polled. This is also an article about the Healthcare Bill and the poll was made to see what the reaction would be to funding abortion. I'm not surprised by the findings. But it doesn't prove that most women are pro-life. Good try, though.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Teresaq

it does seem to me that the more "dedicated" one becomes to the so-called "pro-life" movement the less they consider the mandates of the bible and the more unstable mentally they become. stuff just starts coming out of their mouths that make no sense whatever.

Just so.

jhfytofnmbvckdloieyerfjhforiyefmbfl!!!!!!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

teehe

[karl]

The article doesn't state how many people were polled. This is also an article about the Healthcare Bill and the poll was made to see what the reaction would be to funding abortion. I'm not surprised by the findings. But it doesn't prove that most women are pro-life. Good try, though.

Would you accept a Gallup poll, or are you just going to pooh-pooh everything posted?

Gallup for '09 shows 49% of women pro-life and 44% pro-abortion. Lots of other data at Gallup.com here: http://www.gallup.com/poll/118399/more-americans-pro-life-than-pro-choice-first-time.aspx

In 2001, when The Polling Company asked female registered voters to describe their views regarding abortion, a slight plurality (48% vs. 43% pro-life) indicated they supported abortion.

Only two years later in their polling, a majority of women were pro-life.

In their latest poll, 54 percent of women selected one of three different pro-life views opposing all or almost all abortions. Only 39 percent backed abortion.

This is The Polling Company's website url: http://www.pollingcompany.com/

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

If polls are all you can give me, I'll accept the Gallup poll...

Quote:

Still, the dominant position on this question remains the middle option, as it has continuously since 1975: 53% currently say abortion should be legal only under certain circumstances.

Gallup poll results