Sin destroy's itself...

[Guest]

Ok

[Guest]

John317 said this.

Sky, check out the parables of Jesus regarding what happens to the wicked:

Every single parable of Jesus that touches on the topic teaches that God destroys the wicked. His parables never say that the wicked kill each other or that they commit suicide. They are consistently "cast out," "thrown into the fire of gehenna," "burned up," "thrown into the furnace of fire," "thrown into outer darkness," "cut in pieces," "tortured," "rejected," "go away into eternal punishment," etc.

1) Matt. 8: 12-- "cast out into outer darkness." (Compare Matt. 13: 42, 50)

Obviously God does the "casting."

2) Matt. 13: 30, 40. The landowner orders his servants to gather the tares and "burn them up" at the time of the harvest.

3) Matt. 13: 42-- tares are thrown into the furnace of fire where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

4) Matt. 13: 47, 50-- the bad are "thrown away"-- "thrown into the furnace of fire."

5) Matt. 18: 8, 9-- People will be "cast into the eternal fire."

6) Matt. 18: 34, 35-- Jesus says His Father will hand us over to "torturers" if we do not forgive others from our hearts.

7) Matt. 21: 40, 41-- the landowner bring the vine-growers to a "wretched end." In Mark 12: 29, the owner will "destroy the vine-growers." See also Luke 20: 16.

8) Matt. 22: 13-- The king tells his servants to bind the man without wedding garment and "throw him" into "outer darkness." (Compare Matt. 13: 50)

9) Matt. 24: 37, 38, 39-- Jesus teaches that people will die at Christ's return just as they did at the Deluge. In the Deluge, God destroyed them. The wicked made themselves unfit to live. In that sense, they destroyed themselves, but it was God who caused the Deluge which brought about their deaths.

10) Matt. 24: 51-- The "Master" will "cut the slave in pieces." (cf. Luke 12: 46). The slave does not cut himself nor do the slaves cut each other.

11) Matt. 25: 11-- The foolish virgins beg to be let inside the wedding feast (heaven) but they are rejected by the bridegroom. God will say that He doesn't know them. (Cf. Luke 13: 25, 27)

12) Matt. 25: 30-- The "Master" orders the "worthless slave" to be "thrown into the outer darkness"-- into oblivion. (cf. 13: 50). There will be "fire."

13) Matt. 25: 31-41. When Jesus comes in His glory, people will be judged, or separated, according to how they've treated Jesus in the person of other people. Those who have neglected to be kind and loving toward others will be sent "into the eternal fire" which God has prepared for the devil and his angels.

14) Matt. 25: 46-- the lost "go away into eternal punishment."

15) Luke 19: 27-- A nobleman (Christ) has his "enemies" "slain" in His sight. His "enemies" are those who did not want Him to reign over them.

NOTE: In none of the parables are the wicked destroyed by Satan or by other wicked people, nor do they commit suicide or voluntarily jump into the lake of fire. They portray God as being active-- not passive-- in destroying sin and sinners. The death of the wicked is viewed as a "punishment," not merely as a "natural result" of sin. The death of the wicked is a supernatural event. God is actively involved in that destruction. It is true that the wicked destroy themselves in the sense that, by their own choices, they make themselves unfit to live in heaven. But the point is that God and the righteous decide that the wicked deserve to die and they also decide the portion that they must suffer. This is also the view that I get out of EW 52, 53 and Ellen White's other writings.

You've said that it is not an arbitrary decision on the part of God, and in this I am in complete agreement. Their destruction is due to their own choices. Their lives show that they deserve the punishment they receive. God's law and the justice of God require their destruction. I believe this is how the parables of Jesus portray the destruction of the wicked.

[John317]

I don't think He did either. This will all become very clear to you once the plagues are being poured out. You will realize that it is indeed man doing it.

Are you aware we are shooting rockets at the moon? Are you aware that Monsanto is causing the extinction of seeds?

Yes, people will be-- and are-- responsible for a lot of the evil that we see in the world, but these things are not the Seven Last Plagues. I expect that God will allow man to use atomic weapons before the Second Coming, but that will not be one of the Plagues spoken of in Revelation. It could be that war and disease will kill many faithful people of God, but the Seven Last Plagues will not kill anyone who has been "sealed" and is ready for Christ to return. For one thing, they occur only after the close of human probation. This fact shows that there is a distinction between the man-made, common evils that happen on earth and the Seven Last Plagues.

The Bible portrays the 7 Last Plagues as originating from the Sanctuary of God in heaven. They are viewed as supernatural events, that is, as coming from God, not man. So when we say they come from man, we are conjecturing at the very least.

Both the Bible and Ellen White are very clear that the plagues that fell on Egypt were from God. Ellen White writes in Spiritual Gifts that it was "an angel of God" who slew the first born of Egypt.

The Bible says that in one of the plagues, dust was turned to lice. Satan cannot do this. Only God can make lice from dust.

[Guest]

Amen

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

I don't think He did either. This will all become very clear to you once the plagues are being poured out. You will realize that it is indeed man doing it.

Are you aware we are shooting rockets at the moon? Are you aware that Monsanto is causing the extinction of seeds?

The Bible portrays the 7 Last Plagues as originating from the Sanctuary of God in heaven. They are viewed as supernatural events, that is, as coming from God, not man. So when we say they come from man, we are conjecturing at the very least.

Both the Bible and Ellen White are very clear that the plagues that fell on Egypt were from God. Ellen White writes in Spiritual Gifts that it was "an angel of God" who slew the first born of Egypt.

The Bible says that in one of the plagues, dust was turned to lice. Satan cannot do this. Only God can make lice from dust.

Time will tell.

[LifeHiscost]

but to anyone who puts forth this notion that God has never destroyed anything and never will.

Which reminds me, for those especially who might tend toward denying Jesus would express Himself other than with gentleness.

"“Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’"

Matt 10:34-36 NKJV

Blessings!

[Twilight]

Quote:

How do the fundamentals read?

Do they say that God does not destroy?

Mark, I haven't been saying that God does not destroy, but that God does not use force and violence to destroy. Force is not a principle of God's government. The exercise of force is contrary to His principles. Even more so for violence.

Previously you stated:

Quote:

We are also undermining a foundational position of the SDA church.

I took this to mean the foundations of the church set when the church first began, which is why I was mentioning the pioneers. But above you mention the "fundamentals." Perhaps you have the fundamental beliefs in mind. If so, they read just like Scripture reads, from which they quote. It is not in the "fundamentals" that God will burn people alive to make them pay for their sins.

That's neither in Scripture, the SOP, or the fundamental beliefs.

Quote:

The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)

This is the fundamental belief which deals with the subject. It says, "The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth." There's nothing here about people being burned alive, much less a reason given for why they should be burned alive.

There is nothing here to suggest that people are not burned alive...

Mark

[skyblue888]

You are correct pnatt. Like you I have never said God does not destroy. How many times I have personally said that I believe just what the Bible says but I let the Bible interpret itself just as I let the SoP interpret itself. How many times we have been reminded that God's thoughts are not our thoughts and that His ways are not our ways.

Richard please stop twisting people's words. Some have been sitting here as so-called "defenders" of Adventism as the religious leaders of the Jewish church zealously defended their traditions against the truths Jesus taught but their zeal was worthy of a better cause. We could be fighting against God without even knowing it, as they did!

I may have shared another man's views but only because they accord with inspiration. They are not his views only but mine too. I have studied this topic for years now. Just because my understanding of the topic happens to conflict with the "standard" view of modern adventism does not mean that it is not the truth. Just about everything Jesus taught conflicted with the standard views of the Sanhedrin and with the popular views of His day. The Jews were professed Seventh-days Adventists too! They professedly kept the Sabbath and were waiting for the coming of the Messiah. Inspiration says that we are repeating their history to the very letter. All that the prophets of old wrote about them was written more for us than for them.

So those who cling to the traditional views of the church may be the ones who are in trouble here. History is not on their side. The majority has never been on the side of the truth and when the Lord sends light to His professed people it is usually opposed by the religious authorities and not only do they reject the light but they prevent others from receiving it.

I do believe God does "destroy" but not man's way. When it is understood how He "destroys," how He "hardens the heart," how He "blinds the eyes," how He "sent the flood," how He "sent fire from heaven" upon the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, how He "sends strong delusion" to those who do not have the love of the truth, how He "sends an evil spirit" to those who turn away from evidence, who question and criticise divine light, how He "raised up evil out of David's own house," how He "takes the case in hand when parents neglect to disciplie their children," how He "sent fiery serpents" to those who were murmuring in the wilderness, how He "punishes the impenitent with a rod," then and only then are His ways understood and only then it is seen that "His judments do not come directly out from Him upon the wicked but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection." E.G. White, MR 14, 3.1.

Then and only then is it understood that "His restraining power is in a measure removed from the agencies of evil and a train of circumstances will arise that will punish sin with sin;" and when men have filled their cup of iniquity, the Lord says, "I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing His work;" and then the command is given to the angels, "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy."

Then and only then is it understood that "He does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression, but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves to reap that which they have sown;" then and only then is it understood that He does not force His presence where it is not desired unless He winks at the ignorance of man.

sky

[Twilight]

Richard please stop twisting people's words. Some have been sitting here as so-called "defenders" of Adventism as the religious leaders of the Jewish church zealously defended their traditions against the truths Jesus taught but their zeal was worthy of a better cause. We could be fighting against God without even knowing it, as they did!

I think many of our brothers are working on character flaws.

But I think this here is inappropriate Sky.

You are comparing Richard to the Sanhedrin by insinuation.

You are saying he is opposing Gods truth.

----------------------------------------

The only thing I seem him opposing is error.

Error that could be avoided if we stuck to the simple biblical principles of exposition of truth.

Many people have given ample reasons for these teachings to be rejected.

Solid biblical reasons.

So let us stop this "high horse" behaviour, that states that if you do not agree with "me", you are teaching error...

We must give each other the liberty to believe what we believe.

People do not agree with you for biblical reasons.

But does this mean we should condemn you?

And say that you are rejecting light?

Man sows the seed, the Holy Spirit convicts.

Let us let Him do the work.

Mark

[pnattmbtc]

Me:Richard, I'm pretty sure that everyone here who posts on the side of the issue that God does not destroy by using force and violence would agree that God destroys. The question is how does God destroy. I'm pretty sure Lutz and Sky have said this, and I'm also quite sure that APL would agree with this as well. (Sorry if I missed someone).

Richard:No, that is not true.

[skyblue888]

How long should it take for a Seventh-day Adventist who professes to believe in the SoP to believe just what the prophet says she was shown by the Lord:

"I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection." MR 14,3.1

How long should it take for us to believe that? How long should it take to understand that a statement like that is a strong hint from the Lord as to how we are to read the Bible when God says that He did this or that He did that or that He will do this or that He will do that when it comes to His judgments?

"It is dangerous to utter a word of doubt, dangerous to question and criticize divine light." D.A.323.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Richard

Me:Richard, I'm pretty sure that everyone here who posts on the side of the issue that God does not destroy by using force and violence would agree that God destroys. The question is how does God destroy. I'm pretty sure Lutz and Sky have said this, and I'm also quite sure that APL would agree with this as well. (Sorry if I missed someone).

Richard:No, that is not true.

I'm quite sure what I said is true, Richard. Sky would agree completely with the concept that we should ask, "God does destroy, but how?"

Quote:

sky dosn't even believe God caused the flood, or Sodom and Gomorrah.

God can destroy without having to directly cause things to happen Himself. That's the point.

Exactly. That is the point. It is the Lord Himself who says that His judgments do not come direclty out from Him upon the sinner.

I don't know how anyone can argue with the Lord on this as if to say, I will tell you how to teach Your message!!!!

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

I don't think He did either. This will all become very clear to you once the plagues are being poured out. You will realize that it is indeed man doing it.

Are you aware we are shooting rockets at the moon? Are you aware that Monsanto is causing the extinction of seeds?

Yes, people will be-- and are-- responsible for a lot of the evil that we see in the world, but these things are not the Seven Last Plagues. I expect that God will allow man to use atomic weapons before the Second Coming, but that will not be one of the Plagues spoken of in Revelation. It could be that war and disease will kill many faithful people of God, but the Seven Last Plagues will not kill anyone who has been "sealed" and is ready for Christ to return. For one thing, they occur only after the close of human probation. This fact shows that there is a distinction between the man-made, common evils that happen on earth and the Seven Last Plagues.

The Bible portrays the 7 Last Plagues as originating from the Sanctuary of God in heaven. They are viewed as supernatural events, that is, as coming from God, not man. So when we say they come from man, we are conjecturing at the very least.

Both the Bible and Ellen White are very clear that the plagues that fell on Egypt were from God. Ellen White writes in Spiritual Gifts that it was "an angel of God" who slew the first born of Egypt.

The Bible says that in one of the plagues, dust was turned to lice. Satan cannot do this. Only God can make lice from dust.

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding #284060, here is a comment on one of the parables of destruction:

Quote:

In the laws of God in nature, effect follows cause with unerring certainty. The reaping will testify as to what the sowing has been. The slothful worker is condemned by his work. The harvest bears witness against him. So in spiritual things: the faithfulness of every worker is measured by the results of his work. The character of his work, whether diligent or slothful, is revealed by the harvest. It is thus that his destiny for eternity is decided.

Every seed sown produces a harvest of its kind. So it is in human life. We all need to sow the seeds of compassion, sympathy, and love; for we shall reap what we sow. Every characteristic of selfishness, self-love, self-esteem, every act of self-indulgence, will bring forth a like harvest. He who lives for self is sowing to the flesh, and of the flesh he will reap corruption.

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest. (COL 84)

Regarding the comment that every parable teaches that God will destroy the wicked, one can say in a sense that this is true, and the sense that this is true is explained here:

Quote:

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

7) Matt. 21: 40, 41-- the landowner bring the vine-growers to a "wretched end." In Mark 12: 29, the owner will "destroy the vine-growers." See also Luke 20: 16.

This is a reference to the destruction of Jerusalem:

Quote:

The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them... (GC 35)

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

8) Matt. 22: 13-- The king tells his servants to bind the man without wedding garment and "throw him" into "outer darkness." (Compare Matt. 13: 50)

This is a reference to the destruction of Jerusalem:

Quote:

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. (GC 36)

[pnattmbtc]

What we see in these parables of Jesus Christ is that the same principles are at work which Ellen White explains in GC 35-37. Indeed, they are both talking about the same event. So when Jesus Christ says the landowner bring the vine-growers to a "wretched end." and that the owner will "destroy the vine-growers," we see from the GC 35-37 comments just how this happened: God's spirit was resisted and God was caused to remove His protection.

Similarly when Jesus spoke of the king telling his servants to bind the man without wedding garment and "throw him" into "outer darkness."

So while it can be said that, "Every single parable of Jesus that touches on the topic teaches that God destroys the wicked." it should be understood that how God destroys is according to the principles laid out in the discussion of the destruction of Jerusalem.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Richard please stop twisting people's words. Some have been sitting here as so-called "defenders" of Adventism as the religious leaders of the Jewish church zealously defended their traditions against the truths Jesus taught but their zeal was worthy of a better cause. We could be fighting against God without even knowing it, as they did!

I think many of our brothers are working on character flaws.

But I think this here is inappropriate Sky.

You are comparing Richard to the Sanhedrin by insinuation.

You are saying he is opposing Gods truth.

----------------------------------------

The only thing I seem him opposing is error.

Error that could be avoided if we stuck to the simple biblical principles of exposition of truth.

Many people have given ample reasons for these teachings to be rejected.

Solid biblical reasons.

So let us stop this "high horse" behaviour, that states that if you do not agree with "me", you are teaching error...

We must give each other the liberty to believe what we believe.

People do not agree with you for biblical reasons.

But does this mean we should condemn you?

And say that you are rejecting light?

Man sows the seed, the Holy Spirit convicts.

Let us let Him do the work.

Mark

Again, this is purely human reasoning on your part. It is the Holy Spirit who says that "it is dangerous to utter a word of doubt, dangerous to question and criticize divine light." D.A.323. It is the Holy Spirit who says that "when one ray of light is disregarded there is a partial benumbing of the spiritual perceptions and the second revealing is less clearly discerned." D.A.322. It is the Holy Spirit who says that "when light is sent and it is rejected, set aside, then come condemnation and the frown of God."

These are not my words but the words of inspiration.

If anyone feels condemned by these words he will have to answer to God, not to any man.

Precious light has been presented, not the suppositions of men.

"God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression." G.C.36.

"I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection." MR 14, 3.1

What is inappropriate is to fail to accept these revelations with the simple faith of a little child and instead to oppose them with our preconceived ideas and opinions.

On the contrary, it has been shown from the Bible itself, who is the destroyer and who is the Restorer. It has been shown from the Bible and from the SoP how we are to understand such expressions as "God hardenend Pharaoh's heart," or "God sends them strong delusion," or "God sent them fiery serpents," or "God sent the flood," or "God sent fire from heaven."

Let us not turn away from evidence.

May God have mercy on His professed people.

If this message keeps being rejected by His professed people, the time will come when the message will go to the Gentiles and they will hear it.

“The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers, saying,

‘Go to this people and say:

'Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand;

And seeing you will see, and not perceive;

For the hearts of this people have grown dull.

Their ears are hard of hearing,

And their eyes they have closed,

Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,

Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,

So that I should heal them.

Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it! And when he had said these words, the Jews departed and had a great dispute among themselves." Acts 28:25-29.

sky

[Guest]

Richard please stop twisting people's words. Some have been sitting here as so-called "defenders" of Adventism as the religious leaders of the Jewish church zealously defended their traditions against the truths Jesus taught but their zeal was worthy of a better cause. We could be fighting against God without even knowing it, as they did!

[skyblue888]

Quote:

7) Matt. 21: 40, 41-- the landowner bring the vine-growers to a "wretched end." In Mark 12: 29, the owner will "destroy the vine-growers." See also Luke 20: 16.

This is a reference to the destruction of Jerusalem:

Quote:

The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them... (GC 35)

Amen!

After such clear presentations, we have no more excuse. We are now under obligation to believe as Mrs. White stated in the days that followed the Minneapolis conference in 1888, as light from Heaven was presented in clear and disctinct lines.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue

Richard please stop twisting people's words. Some have been sitting here as so-called "defenders" of Adventism as the religious leaders of the Jewish church zealously defended their traditions against the truths Jesus taught but their zeal was worthy of a better cause. We could be fighting against God without even knowing it, as they did!

How have I twisted anybody's words pray tell. If I have twisted anything, I have had to twist my own words to keep from condemning you for condemning others with your comparisons to the jews of old. You have departed from the method of Bible study that built the platform Adventism was founded upon. We are not to use EGW to form doctrine or to re-interpret the Bible. And we are not to place her above the Bible, which you have done also. You have stepped off the platform to examine it, and you have found it faulty. You think you are doing God's work by re-defining scripture, but you are not.

God had led them along step by step, until He had placed them upon a solid, immovable platform. I saw individuals approach the platform and examine the foundation. Some with rejoicing immediately stepped upon it. Others commenced to find fault with the foundation. They wished improvements made, and then the platform would be more perfect, and the people much happier. Some stepped off the platform to examine it and declared it to be laid wrong. But I saw that nearly all stood firm upon the platform and exhorted those who had stepped off to cease their complaints; for God was the Master Builder, and they were fighting against Him. {EW 259}

Originally Posted By: skyblue

I may have shared another man's views but only because they accord with inspiration. They are not his views only but mine too. I have studied this topic for years now. Just because my understanding of the topic happens to conflict with the "standard" view of modern adventism does not mean that it is not the truth.

It is not modern adventism that you are at odds with. It is the founders. And the length of time spent studying does not make it truth. You have done what we are told never to do, and that is: place her writings above plain scripture, and use them to form doctrine.

Two of William Miller's rules for proper study:

RULE IV.

To understand doctrine, bring all the scriptures together on the subject you wish to know; then

let every word have its proper influence, and if you can form your theory without a

contradiction, you cannot be in an error.

RULE V.

Scripture must be its own expositor, since it is a rule of itself. If I depend on a teacher to

expound it to me, and he should guess at its meaning, or desire to have it so on account of his

sectarian creed, or to be thought wise, then his guessing, desire, creed or wisdom is my rule, not

the Bible.

This is nonsense, total nonsense, Richard, and you know it. You and Mark are substituting your own fallible ideas to a Thus saith the Lord. You are both rejecting the Testimonies. This is what is happening here and by the same token you are rejecting the Bible too for the Testimonies do not conflict with the Scriptures.

When the Holy Spirit says that the judgments of God do not come directly out from the Lord upon sinners but that they place themselves beyond His circle of protection and we question and criticize these words, we are on dangerous ground. This is called rejecting light from Heaven. This is acting the part of Pharaoh of old and of the Jews of old, and we will reap unbelief and obstinacy as they did.

sky

[Woody]

Oh Brother.

[Guest]

Which part of it is nonsense? The Ellen White quote, or the William Miller rules? It is all the truth, and you SHOULD know that.

[skyblue888]

The rules William Miller used to study the Bible are no different than the rules God gave Mrs. White as to how to study not only the Bible but her writings as well.

"The Testimonies will be the key that will explain the messages given, as Scripture is explained by Scripture." 1 S.M.42.

This is clear.

There is no contradiction here.

Just as one passage of Scripture is explained by another, so is one statement from her writings explained by another.

sky

In her writings are found statements that explain the language used when describing God's judgments. These statements are so plain that a child can understand them. When they are accepted by simple faith, it becomes clear that Satan's ways of destroying are not God's ways of destroying. God "destroys" by trying to save. God "hardens" the heart by trying to soften it. God "blinds" the eyes of men by sending them light. In other words, by resisting or rejecting that light the eyes are blinded and the hearts hardened. The second revealing is less clearly discerned. The darkness increases until it is night in the soul. The rejecters of His mercy place themselves where the Lord can no longer protect them from themselves or from the malice and enmity of Satan. And this is called the wrath of God, the anger of the Lord. The Lord has made this so clear that we have no excuse not to believe.

[Guest]

The rules William Miller used to study the Bible are no different than the rules God gave Mrs. White as to how to study not only the Bible but her writings as well.

"The Testimonies will be the key that will explain the messages given, as Scripture is explained by Scripture." 1 S.M.42.

This is clear.

There is no contradiction here.

Just as one passage of Scripture is explained by another, so is one statement from her writings explained by another.

sky

Right, but you are explaining away scripture with her testimonies, which is wrong. But to make it even worse, you are using testimony out of context and applying it across the board so to speak. Which is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!