Sin destroy's itself...

[Guest]

This makes it clear that the the forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere, are not holy angels but unholy ones.

It will not be evil angels who destroy themselves, and Satan. Or even the wicked for that matter.

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. {EW 294}

[wayfinder]

Malachi 4:1-3

1 "For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze," says the LORD of hosts, "so that it will leave them neither root nor branch." 2 "But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3 "You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing," says the LORD of hosts.

[Lutz13]

Did you watch the video?

I watched enough to know his message. I am not adding to scripture. I am just reading it as it is.

Yet you still ignore the parts where God says: "For I am the Lord, I do not change"(Malachi 3:6) "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."(Hebrews 13:8)

The nature of Gods wrath does not change. It is a trait that belongs to His character. So when Paul explains what the wrath of God is, how can we still go on and assume it is God being angry and blowing people up?

How is "God gave them up....God gave them up....God gave them over" not clear? How is "I gave you a king in My anger, and took him away in My wrath"(Hosea 13:11) not a clear picture of Gods wrath?

When God said that He would harden Pharaohs heart, did He do it? Scripture makes it clear that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Yet God "gave him over" to his hearts desires. Pharaoh also suffered the wrath of God.

When God said: "Thus says the Lord: 'Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun."(2 Samuel 12:11)

When Jesus said: "All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written: 'I will strike the Shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'"(Matthew 26:31) We know that God isn't the one who killed Jesus.

I have read many many many instances of this in scripture. So when I also read:

"You defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your trading; therefore I brought fire from your midst; it devoured you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you."(Ezekiel 28:18) I understand it just like the many other times God says "I will".

When I read "Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, 'Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.'"(Revelation 16:1) I completely understand that it isn't God doing it, but allowing consequence to overtake the inhabitants of the earth. Clearly I read "Because they hated my knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord, they would have none of my counsel and despised my every rebuke. Therefore they shall eat the fruit of their own way, and be filled to the full with their own fancies."(Proverbs 1:29-31) They reap what they have sown into their own hearts.

So when you say the wrath of God changes. You call God a liar. He said I change not! His character and nature are the same forever. His wrath is a trait of character.

[skyblue888]

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. {EW 294}

Richard, we have read this statement too but we understand it differently than you do. Jesus said, "How readest thou?" It is not enough to be able to read the Scriptures. The Jews read the Scriptures too but did they understand them? Jesus said to them, "You understand neither the Scriptures nor the power of God."

And we are expressly told that history will be repeated.

"These things happened unto them as examples and they were written for our admonition upon whom the ends of the ages are come." 1 Cor.10:11.

Have you not read also "how the enemy sought every occasion to take control of the minds of the Jews, and today he is seeking to blind the minds of God's servants that they may not be able to discern the precious truth." 1 S.M.406.

sky

[Lutz13]

Malachi 4:1-3

1 "For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze," says the LORD of hosts, "so that it will leave them neither root nor branch." 2 "But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3 "You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing," says the LORD of hosts.

Right, another instance of God saying "I will".

[Guest]

You're saying you can take a couple of texts and know all there is too know about the wrath of God. How simplistic. What confidence you have in being able to plumb the depths of scripture.

I don't have that kind of confidence in myself, much less you.

[skyblue888]

Lutz, it is sad to say but this is something Mrs. White said some cannot see and will never understand. It is a truth that is sealed up to them but which the Lord has opened to those who will see and are ready to understand.

sky

[Lutz13]

You're saying you can take a couple of texts and know all there is too know about the wrath of God. How simplistic. What confidence you have in being able to plumb the depths of scripture.

I don't have that kind of confidence in myself, much less you.

A couple? Seriously? I could probably find 100+ instances of Gods wrath in scripture.

At any rate. I'm going to stick with "I the Lord change not" "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever".

[Guest]

I could find 100 that say the opposite. You're supposed to look at them all, not just the ones you like.

[skyblue888]

You're saying you can take a couple of texts and know all there is too know about the wrath of God. How simplistic. What confidence you have in being able to plumb the depths of scripture.

I don't have that kind of confidence in myself, much less you.

Stop being so arrogant Richard. The God you are presenting to us seems to be very capricious and unpredictable. The true God does not change. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. The principles of His dealing with men are ever the same. They do not change. "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression." This is a principle that does not allow for any deviation. Any deviation to this principle and the controversy between Christ and Satan is over and Satan is the winner.

But God has never been the executioner of the sentence against transgression and never will be. "God destroys no man." "Satan is the destroyer."

If we teach contrary to these simple declarations of truth, we make ourselves the representatives of Satan. This is what happened to the Jewish people.

"The people to whom God had called to be the pillar and ground of the truth had become representatives of Satan. They were doing the work that he desired them to do, taking a course to misrepresent the character of God, and cause the world to look upon Him as a tyran." D.A.36.

History is being repeated.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest.

I have noticed this pattern Richard:

Point: God does not destroy (here is a proof text).

Objection: This text says He does.

Response: You are ignoring light (here is a proof text).

Objection: But what about this text?

Point: God does not destroy (here is a proof text).

Objection: But you have not considered this text, just ignored it.

Response: You are ignoring light (here is a proof text).

These are the two positions represented over and over.

1. God does not destroy (here is a proof text).

2. You are rejecting light (here is a proof text).

There is not an open discussion of the issues or principles but a stating of a position, then a condemnation (by some), when that position is challenged.

Truth can be weighed and examined.

Only error needs a fanatical blindness to defend it...

Mark :-(

I've noticed this pattern:

Question asked. Question ignored.

Question asked again. Question ignored again. etc.

For example, this one:

Quote:

It seems the idea being expressed here is that God is losing the Great Controversy, and will continue to lose it, until He resorts to force and violence to win it. He'll win it, eventually, because He is stronger than anyone else, and so can apply greater force and violence than anyone else.

I have more to say on this topic, but before going on, I'd like to make sure I'm understanding your argument correctly.

I never did get an answer to this.

Another question I've asked is why God would use force and violence, the tools of the enemy, to solve the sin problem, given that these tools form no part of His government. For example:

Quote:

The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government...Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. (DA 22, 759)[/quote']

I don't see how this could be understood in a qualified. That is, I don't see how this statement could be taken to mean that sometimes, or usually, God doesn't use force or compelling power, but sometimes He does. If it's contrary to the principle of God's government, and His principles are this order, how could He ever use it?

[pnattmbtc]

I've also pointed out that the cross is not mentioned in connection to the question under discussion, although the SOP tells us that all truths in Scripture cluster around it. No connection is seen, so no connection is mentioned.

DA 764 explains the destruction of the wicked in connection to the cross.

Quote:

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)

[Guest]

Stop being so arrogant Richard.

I think it is you who is arrogant, saying: "I have the light, I have the light, if you can't see that you are in darkness like the jews."

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Did you watch the video?

I watched enough to know his message. I am not adding to scripture.

So you watched the first 5 minutes?

[skyblue888]

Well if I am presenting light and you reject that light, then what? and what if the Lord is using me to warn you about rejecting that light? if I warn you, your blood will not be upon my hands. Does not God use human instruments to bring light to His people? There is nothing new under the sun. Be careful not to despise the humble instrument. I am not the only one here presenting that light. Some have done a much better job than I have and yet that same light has been rejected again and again.

sky

[skyblue888]

The prophet warned us that when light from God is presented, there are those who interpose between the light and the people saying, "'God is with us. We stand in the light. We have the truth.' I inquire who these men were and was told that they were ministers and leading men who had rejected the light themselves and were unwilling that others should receive it." E.W.241.

So it is not those who present the light that are rejecting the light but those who are professing to believe present truth. This has always been the case. It was so in the days of Christ and in the days of the Reformation. It was the case in 1844, in 1888, and we have no reason to believe that it will be any different today.

"That which has been is that which shall be." Ecc.1:9,

sky

[Woody]

Amazing.

[skyblue888]

The Lord is making bare His holy arm, rolling up His sleeves, as it were, and He will make the ears tingle.

If you think that this is amazing, you have not seen anything yet.

sky

[Woody]

I didn't mean to encourage you by my comment. I take it back.

[skyblue888]

Quote:

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest.

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I have noticed this pattern Richard:

Point: God does not destroy (here is a proof text).

Objection: This text says He does.

Response: You are ignoring light (here is a proof text).

Objection: But what about this text?

Point: God does not destroy (here is a proof text).

Objection: But you have not considered this text, just ignored it.

Response: You are ignoring light (here is a proof text).

These are the two positions represented over and over.

1. God does not destroy (here is a proof text).

2. You are rejecting light (here is a proof text).

There is not an open discussion of the issues or principles but a stating of a position, then a condemnation (by some), when that position is challenged.

Truth can be weighed and examined.

Only error needs a fanatical blindness to defend it...

Mark :-(

I've noticed this pattern:

Question asked. Question ignored.

Question asked again. Question ignored again. etc.

For example, this one:

Quote:

It seems the idea being expressed here is that God is losing the Great Controversy, and will continue to lose it, until He resorts to force and violence to win it. He'll win it, eventually, because He is stronger than anyone else, and so can apply greater force and violence than anyone else.

I have more to say on this topic, but before going on, I'd like to make sure I'm understanding your argument correctly.

I never did get an answer to this.

Another question I've asked is why God would use force and violence, the tools of the enemy, to solve the sin problem, given that these tools form no part of His government. For example:

Quote:

The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government...Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. (DA 22, 759)

I don't see how this could be understood in a qualified. That is, I don't see how this statement could be taken to mean that sometimes, or usually, God doesn't use force or compelling power, but sometimes He does. If it's contrary to the principle of God's government, and His principles are this order, how could He ever use it? [/quote']

Exactly. That would make our good and gracious Lord very capricious and unpredictable like the gods of this world.

sky

[wayfinder]

Jeremiah 12:14-17

14 Thus says the LORD concerning all My wicked neighbors who strike at the inheritance with which I have endowed My people Israel, "Behold I am about to uproot them from their land and will uproot the house of Judah from among them. 15 "And it will come about that after I have uprooted them, I will again have compassion on them; and I will bring them back, each one to his inheritance and each one to his land. 16 "Then if they will really learn the ways of My people, to swear by My name, 'As the LORD lives,' even as they taught My people to swear by Baal, they will be built up in the midst of My people. 17 "But if they will not listen, then I will uproot that nation, uproot and destroy it," declares the LORD.

[wayfinder]

Jeremiah 13:14

"I will dash them against each other, both the fathers and the sons together," declares the LORD. "I will not show pity nor be sorry nor have compassion so as not to destroy them.'""

[skyblue888]

I didn't mean to encourage you by my comment. I take it back.

Don't worry I took it exactly as you meant it to be understood.

sky

[skyblue888]

Jeremiah 13:14

"I will dash them against each other, both the fathers and the sons together," declares the LORD. "I will not show pity nor be sorry nor have compassion so as not to destroy them.'""

Remember that the Jews read these Scriptures too but did they understand them?

Jesus said, "You understand neither the Scriptures nor the power of God."

This was written for our admonition.

"How readest thou?"

sky

[Lutz13]

Jeremiah 12:14-17

14 Thus says the LORD concerning all My wicked neighbors who strike at the inheritance with which I have endowed My people Israel, "Behold I am about to uproot them from their land and will uproot the house of Judah from among them. 15 "And it will come about that after I have uprooted them, I will again have compassion on them; and I will bring them back, each one to his inheritance and each one to his land. 16 "Then if they will really learn the ways of My people, to swear by My name, 'As the LORD lives,' even as they taught My people to swear by Baal, they will be built up in the midst of My people. 17 "But if they will not listen, then I will uproot that nation, uproot and destroy it," declares the LORD.

Indeed. More "I will". "I will raise up adversity against you from your own house..."(2 Samuel 12:11)