Is Temptation Sin?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Ellen White

But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {13MR 18.1}

....

Let's look at Ellen's first quote. She said Christ COULD HAVE sinned then followed that up with Christ never had for a moment an evil propensity. That's like saying Christ liked porn but He didn't like porn! Let's look at the meaning of "propensity".

Originally Posted By: meaning

1. a natural inclination or tendency: a propensity to drink too much.

2. Obsolete. favorable disposition or partiality.

That's it people, unless you have already poured a new and alien meaning into an established word that already had been defined. What is it? Here is a paraphrase of What Ellen said.

"Christ could have yielded to temptation but he never had a natural inclination or disposition to sin"

Your mistake here is that you don't understand how Ellen White is using the word "propensity." The evidence indicates that she used the word with different shades of meaning in different contexts. Sometimes "propensity" may refer to natural human tendencies, such as unfallen Adam had, while in other cases it may refer to fallen human tendencies. But when Ellen White qualifies the word "propensity" with adjectives such as evil, sinful, selfish or worldly, she is referring to developed habit patters. And of course Jesus never developed evil/sinful habit patterns.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Ellen White

Every temptation that could be brought against fallen humanity, He met and overcame . . Had He not been fully human, He could not have been our substitute. Bible Echo, August 2, 1897.

....Ellen stated that every evil desire we have had Christ had and Christ "overcame".

You're misunderstanding Ellen White's statements. Nowhere does she say that Christ had evil desires or that Christ had to overcome sinful habits or practices. Christ never sinned, nor did He ever have evil desires.

Resisting and overcoming temptations is different from overcoming sin. Christ never had to repent, confess, or overcome a sinful habit.

Please quote the statement by Ellen White which you believe means that Christ had every evil desire we have.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

7) All prophecies are conditional, and the prophecies regarding the salvation of the world through Christ are no exception. All would have been lost if Christ had failed. Everything was riding on the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. We owe everything to Christ.

This is the salient point of the 7.

(Just out of curiosity, when you say all prophecies are conditional, would you include the prophecies of Daniel? -- such as the 2300 day prophecy, or the 70 week prophecy)

Yes, I do include those prophecies, because if Christ had failed in His mission, He could not have become our High Priest and He could not have cleansed the heavenly sanctuary. Those prophecies were all predicated on Christ's perfect obedience to God. In that sense they were conditional.

[John317]

You have yet to align your theology of sin with the mechanics of sin Sacred Scripture has given you to work with. Here are some hard facts to deal with;

A) If Christ "could have", as Ellen stated, "Yielded to Temptation" then,

Christ "would have" been drawn away by His own "EVIL Desires" because,

C) "Each one" IS tempted WHEN they are drawn by THEIR "DESIRE"

Prior to going off on a goose-chase that Desire does not have to be evil I would urge you to look at the context of James 1,15 again and realize that desire that has is terminus in perfected sin IS OBVIOUSLY SIN.

All that needed to happen in order for Christ to fail in His mission was for Him to follow His own will instead of God's will, and this could have happened in several ways from the time of His youth until His death. Jesus had many good desires that would have become evil desires if He had chosen to fall away from God's will. Jesus was "tempted to wrongfully indulge natural desires, to evade moral and spiritual issues, to cut moral corners, and take easy ways out, and to be less than loving and sympathetic to others, to be self-centered and lost in self-pity-- all these came upon Jesus but He yielded to none of them." (See p. 1782 of The Reformation Study Bible, ESV).

The Bible makes it clear that Christ was not born with a will that was automatically in agreement with the will of God. Jesus had a human will which was distinct and different from God's will. That's why He prayed, "Not my will but Yours be done" (John 22: 42). The prayer makes no sense if Jesus' will and the Father's will were one and the same all the time. The fact is that Christ had to deliberately choose every moment to submit His will to the will of the Father. If He hadn't chosen to do this, Christ would have fallen. There was nothing automatic about Christ being in submission to the Father. It required choice, just as our submission and obedience to God requires our choice.

[John317]

Here is a paraphrase of What Ellen said.

"Christ could have yielded to temptation but he never had a natural inclination or disposition to sin"

This is true. Christ had a natural inclination and disposition to love and obey God.

Ellen White says, "Christ did not possess the same sinful, corrupt, fallen disloyalty we possess." (Ms. 94, 1893)

It is the disloyalty that is the problem. Inheritance doesn't make us guilty, but the choice to exercise our fallen nature produces guilt.

Consider this quote: "In taking upon Himself man's nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin.... We should have no misgivings in regard to the perfect sinlessness of the human nature of Christ." (SM, bk. 1, p. 256)

Jesus took man's nature in its fallen condition, but He never participated in sin. He did not choose in the way we choose. Jesus was the spotless Lamb of God in a fallen body and nature.

[John317]

.... I refer you to,

Originally Posted By: Seventh-day Adventists answer Questions on Doctrine, page 408

From Adam we all have inherited a sinful nature. We all are "by nature the children of wrath" (Eph. 2:3). Whether we be Jews or Gentiles, we are "all under sin." "There is none that seeketh after God. . . . There is none that doeth good, no, not one" (Rom. 3:9, 11, 12). Consequently all are "guilty before God" (verse 19). But if men will only accept God's free gift of righteousness, then no matter how far they have drifted from God, or how deeply they have become imbedded in sin, they can still be justified, for Christ's righteousness, if accepted, is accounted as theirs. Such is the matchless grace of God

For SDA's, the above is Imprimatur.

It's a mistake to believe that the book, QOD, "is Imprimatur," or that it speaks authoritatively for the SDA church. That book does contain many good things, but it also contains some things that are not true and representative of the SDA church.

There's an excellent, recently published book called, A Fork In the Road, by Herbert Edgar Douglass, which goes into great depth regarding the history of QOD. Douglass was close friends with the men who wrote QOD, and he was there when it was being written.

[John317]

If I overcome smoking that means that I "smoked", was addicted to smoking and eventually OVERCAME "MY OWN" desire to smoke. Original Sin is a STATE or condition that has been passed down from Adam and it means that we are all addicted to sin from birth. We do not overcome friends, we overcome an enemy! Ellen said Jesus overcame every temptation WE have. You now see the heresy?

Because of the sinful practices of their mother's, some babies are indeed born with an addiction to some drugs.

But Ellen White doesn't say that Christ overcame any sinful practices or sinful desires. She says that he resisted and overcame temptations to sin. There's a big difference.

[Gustave]

Because of the sinful practices of their mother's, some babies are indeed born with an addiction to some drugs.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Because of the sinful practices of their mother's, some babies are indeed born with an addiction to some drugs.

Are you saying that is what David meant in Ps 51,5? That his Mom smoked or drank too much and picked up an addiction from her substance abuse and passed it on to him?

I'm saying that this is the only way anyone is born with an addiction. Apart from a parents indulgence in drugs, we're not born with addictions to sin. We're born with sinful, fallen natures which have a predisposition to sin. But people get into addictions to sin through choosing to sin. We cultivate sinful habits, which later we must overcome through God's grace. Since Christ never sinned and therefore never cultivated sinful habits, it follows that He never had to overcome sin, although He certainly had to resist temptations.

As I've said before, Christ was born with a fallen nature but He was also born filled with the Holy Spirit.

Ps. 51: 5 is telling us that we are born with sinful, fallen natures, and Christ was born with the same human nature that His mother had.

In Harry Johnson's study on the humanity of Jesus Christ, he made this statement:

"The New Testament supports the theory that Jesus was born into humanity and took full human nature from Mary, and the obvious deduction is that part of this heredity was 'fallen human nature.' There is no evidence to suggest that the chain of heredity was broken between Mary and Jesus."

Johnson continues, "The birth of Jesus means that He entered fully into our human situation, and that He came into human nature as it was because of the Fall.... The burden of proof must lie with those who accept the doctrine of an 'inherited weakness,' and yet maintain that Jesus took a real humanity from His mother without inheriting the results of the Fall." (The Humanity of the Savior [London: The Epworth Press, 1962], pp. 44, 45).

The burden of proof, then, lies with those who want to say that there was an interference with the heredity which Mary passed on to Jesus. The evidence from the Bible (as well as Ellen White's writings) indicates that His inheritance was the same as our inheritance.

The human nature which Christ takes is none other, obviously shown in the Scripture, than sinful nature. The word “nature” is referring to genetic nature or we can call it “flesh.” Quite contrary to many protestant believers who are the proponent of pre-lapsarian view (pre-Fall nature), God’s Word defines plainly that Christ took upon Himself our fallen, sinful nature, the pos-lapsarian view (post-Fall nature).

“Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh” (Romans 1:3)

“For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:3, 4)

(Compare the use of "in the likeness of men" in Phil. 2: 7. Jesus did not only appear to be a man but He was truly and completely human.)

“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.” (Hebrews 2:14-18)

“But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.” (Galatians 4:4, 5)

[Gustave]

There is no doubt that Ellen proved she believed that Jesus came in a fallen sinful nature. I agree with you there.

In the smallest as well as the largest matters, the first great question is, What is God's will in the matter; for His will is my will. "To obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams" (1 Sam. 15:22). Who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?

One man may be required by God to do a work and stand in a position that is peculiarly trying and taxing. The Lord has a work for him to do and he risks his life, his future eternal life, in standing in that place. This was the position Christ occupied when He came to our world, entering into conflict with the rebel leader of the fallen angels. God devised a plan, and Christ accepted the position.

He consented to meet the foe singlehanded, as every human being must do. He was provided with all the heavenly powers to aid Him in this great conflict; and man, if he walked in the way and will of God, is provided with the same keeping power. The same heavenly intelligences minister unto those who shall be heirs of salvation, that they may overcome every temptation, great or small, as Christ overcame. But anyone who places himself in a position of peril from any motive but obedience to the will of God will fall under the power of temptation. . . . {UL 48.4}

In other-words, man or an angel could have been Christ. Christ could have lost "HIS" "FUTURE ETERNAL LIFE".

You seriously consider this teaching Orthodox? I'm not being a wise guy but don't you think that is blasphemy?

From "God Himself will come and save us" to this?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

But Ellen White doesn't say that Christ overcame any sinful practices or sinful desires. She says that he resisted and overcame temptations to sin. There's a big difference.

You did,

You must have misunderstood me. Perhaps I was not clear enough.

Here's my firmly held belief:

CHRIST NEVER SINNED AND NEVER HAD EVIL DESIRES, AND THEREFORE HE NEVER HAD TO OVERCOME SINFUL OR EVIL PRACTICES AND HABITS.

Quote:

and so did she,

If you look carefully at what she has written, you will find that you've misunderstood her the same way you've misunderstood what I've said.

Quote:

Here,

Originally Posted By: Ellen White AG 300.4

Christ did not come to the earth as a king, to rule the nations. He came as a humble man, to be tempted, and to overcome temptation, to follow on, as we must, to know the Lord. In the study of His life we shall learn how much God through Him will do for His children. And we shall learn that, however great our trials may be, they cannot exceed what Christ endured that we might know the way, the truth, and the life.

She doesn't say anywhere there that Christ had to overcome sinful desires or overcome sinful practices. Yet it is true, as most Christians believe, that Christ's trials far exceeded what we must endure. Notice she speaks of Christ's overcoming of "temptation," not sinful practices or evil desires.

Quote:

And certainly here,

Originally Posted By: White

Christ bore the sins of the whole world. He endured our punishment--the wrath of God against transgression. His trial involved the fierce temptation of thinking that He was forsaken by God. His soul was tortured by the pressure of a horror of great darkness. . . . He could not have been tempted in all points like as man is tempted had there been no possibility of His failing. He was a free agent, placed on probation, as was Adam and as is man. Unless there is a possibility of yielding, temptation is no temptation.Temptation comes and is resisted when man is powerfully influenced to do a wrong action, and knowing that he can do it, resists by faith, with a firm hold upon divine power.--Manuscript 29, March 17, 1899, "Sacrificed for Us." {UL 90.5}

Yes, Christ's trials involved the fierce temptation of thinking that He was forsaken by God. As He said on the cross, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

Again, in the above paragraph, Ellen White does not say that Christ had evil desires or had to overcome sinful practices.

He was powerfully tempted. The Bible says the same very clearly. Ellen White does not say anything in this paragraph that I couldn't quote from hundreds of Christian sources on the same topic.

Quote:

And again.

Originally Posted By: Ellen

Temptation comes and is resisted when man is powerfully influenced to do a wrong action, and knowing that he can do it, resists by faith, with a firm hold upon divine power

The above is true but she is not saying Christ had evil desires or had to overcome evil practices and habits.

Quote:

Originally Posted By: James 1,14

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed

I have MY evil desires and I've been able to resist some of them John. Ellen said Jesus went through what I did only He didn't follow through with HIS EVIL DESIRES. No way out it now, Ellen just said the same thing as James DID SHE NOT!

Ellen White did not say that Christ had evil desires or that He had to overcome sinful practices and habits. Again, Jesus had to overcome fierce temptations to sin, not sinful desires or bad habits.

Quote:

Originally Posted By: White ST Aug 13, 1874

All are personally exposed to the temptations that Christ overcame, but strength is provided for them in the all-powerful

I'll not add injury to insult and stop here. Ellen categorically said what you claimed she didn't.

Again, notice above that she speaks of Christ's overcoming temptations, not sinful practices or evil desires. You never did show where Ellen White said that Jesus had every evil desire that we have or that Jesus had to overcome sinful practices.

[John317]

In other-words, man or an angel could have been Christ.

You seriously consider this teaching Orthodox? I'm not being a wise guy but don't you think that is blasphemy?

From "God Himself will come and save us" to this?

What you are showing me is that you don't understand what SDAs believe or what Ellen White said.

Where do you get the idea that SDAs and/or Ellen White believed that a man or an angel could have been Christ?

For one thing, Ellen White stated many times that no angel or created being could have come here and lived and died for man's salvation.

[John317]

Here's what you said earlier, in post #286190 (see also post# 286404):

Quote:

....Ellen stated that every evil desire we have had Christ had and Christ "overcame".

Please give the quote and reference.

[John317]

You seriously consider this teaching Orthodox?

In all due respect, I'd rather be right and in agreement with Scripture than be known as "Orthodox." "Orthodox" has often been very wrong. Some of the Orthodox churches are more concerned with being in harmony with church tradition than in being in harmony with Sacred Scripture.

I don't believe anything merely because it is "Orthodox." I do study it and I do take it into account, but it is not determinative for me. In this, I believe I'm representative of the SDA church as a whole. Our belief in the Pre-advent Judgment and of the heavenly sanctuary is certainly not Orthodox, but I don't think that's important. Neither I nor the SDA church use the doctrines of other churches as a measuring stick of what is biblical or true. God won't hold me responsible for the orthodox teachings, but He does hold me responsible for what I'm convicted is truth based on Scripture and on what God has revealed through Ellen White.

[Guest]

Amen

[John317]

Quote:

He consented to meet the foe singlehanded, as every human being must do. He was provided with all the heavenly powers to aid Him in this great conflict; and man, if he walked in the way and will of God, is provided with the same keeping power. The same heavenly intelligences minister unto those who shall be heirs of salvation, that they may overcome every temptation, great or small, as Christ overcame. But anyone who places himself in a position of peril from any motive but obedience to the will of God will fall under the power of temptation. . . . {UL 48.4}

In other-words, man or an angel could have been Christ. Christ could have lost "HIS" "FUTURE ETERNAL LIFE".

You seriously consider this teaching Orthodox? I'm not being a wise guy but don't you think that is blasphemy?

From "God Himself will come and save us" to this?

If I understood her to say what you think she said, I would also consider it blasphemy. She's not saying that any man or angel could have been Christ. In fact, as I said before, Ellen White clearly denies this idea. She says that only Christ could have come and provided salvation for humankind. Why? Essentially, because He is God and created the world, and only God could show humanity what God is like.

By the way, have you read the first chapter in The Desire of Ages? Be sure to if you haven't yet read it or if you've forgotten it. She writes in that chapter that only God could have come in order to save us. Who does she say Christ is? The same One who revealed Himself to Moses as "I AM THAT I AM." DA 24.

As for what would have happened if Jesus had fallen, that is a good topic of discussion all of its own. Suffice it to say that Jesus clearly would not have been accepted by the Father if He had sinned and gone outside the will of God. That would have been the most tragic & catastrophic event for the whole universe, including the Godhead. The entire earth and all humanity would have been eternally and utterly lost. I don't see how this is blasphemy. On the contrary, it shows what an mind-boggling risk God took in order to save humanity. It demonstrates God's complete unselfishness in that He loved us more than He loved Himself. It shows that in a very real sense, the Godhead could not be happy as long as humanity was lost and They were willing to do whatever it took to save us.

[pnattmbtc]

Essentially, because He is God and created the world, and only God could show humanity what God is like.

Hey! Cool.

[pnattmbtc]

That would have been the most tragic & catastrophic event for the whole universe, including the Godhead. The entire earth and all humanity would have been eternally and utterly lost.