Is Temptation Sin?

[pnattmbtc]

Throughout His life. That He bore them before the cross is made clear by Matt. 8:17 and John 1:29.

Quote:

16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, 17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:

“ He Himself took our infirmities

And bore our sicknesses.”

This was towards the beginning of Christ's ministry. The point is that Matthew quotes Isa. 53, which speaks of Christ's bearing our transgressions, in reference to an event well before the cross.

John 1:29 is often translated in a way that makes what is clear in the Greek unclear, in regards to when the bearing of sin takes place.

Quote:

on the morrow John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, 'Lo, the Lamb of God, who is taking away the sin of the world;(YLT)

Young's literal translation correctly brings out the meaning of the Greek, which is that Jesus was, at that moment, taking away, or "bearing", the sins of the world (KJV translator nots has "taketh away: or, beareth").

So, in modern English, we could translate this "John saw Jesus coming to Him, and said, "Behold, the lamb of God, who is bearing the sin (or sins) of the world."

(FYI, there are a number of SOP references which bring this out as well).

[Twilight]

Throughout His life. That He bore them before the cross is made clear by Matt. 8:17 and John 1:29.

Quote:

16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, 17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:

“ He Himself took our infirmities

And bore our sicknesses.”

This was towards the beginning of Christ's ministry. The point is that Matthew quotes Isa. 53, which speaks of Christ's bearing our transgressions, in reference to an event well before the cross.

John 1:29 is often translated in a way that makes what is clear in the Greek unclear, in regards to when the bearing of sin takes place.

Quote:

on the morrow John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, 'Lo, the Lamb of God, who is taking away the sin of the world;(YLT)

Young's literal translation correctly brings out the meaning of the Greek, which is that Jesus was, at that moment, taking away, or "bearing", the sins of the world (KJV translator nots has "taketh away: or, beareth").

So, in modern English, we could translate this "John saw Jesus coming to Him, and said, "Behold, the lamb of God, who is bearing the sin (or sins) of the world."

(FYI, there are a number of SOP references which bring this out as well).

So do you understand this to mean that Christ "internalised" our sins.

Then satan had opportunity to tempt Him because He was filled with our sins?

Mark

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Throughout His life. That He bore them before the cross is made clear by Matt. 8:17 and John 1:29.

Quote:

16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, 17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:

“ He Himself took our infirmities

And bore our sicknesses.”

This was towards the beginning of Christ's ministry. The point is that Matthew quotes Isa. 53, which speaks of Christ's bearing our transgressions, in reference to an event well before the cross.

John 1:29 is often translated in a way that makes what is clear in the Greek unclear, in regards to when the bearing of sin takes place.

Quote:

on the morrow John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, 'Lo, the Lamb of God, who is taking away the sin of the world;(YLT)

Young's literal translation correctly brings out the meaning of the Greek, which is that Jesus was, at that moment, taking away, or "bearing", the sins of the world (KJV translator nots has "taketh away: or, beareth").

So, in modern English, we could translate this "John saw Jesus coming to Him, and said, "Behold, the lamb of God, who is bearing the sin (or sins) of the world."

(FYI, there are a number of SOP references which bring this out as well).

So do you understand this to mean that Christ "internalised" our sins.

Then satan had opportunity to tempt Him because He was filled with our sins?

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

So do you understand this to mean that Christ "internalised" our sins.

Then satan had opportunity to tempt Him because He was filled with our sins?

Mark

I'm not sure I'd use your language, but here's something which communicates the thought:

Quote:

God imputes righteousness, the righteousness of Christ, unto the believing sinner. Here is a man who has never known anything in his life but sin, never anything but the guilt of sin, never anything but the condemnation of sin. That man believes on Jesus Christ, and God imputes to that man the righteousness of Christ. Then that man who never committed a particle of righteousness in his life is conscious of righteousness. Something has entered his life that was never there before. He is conscious of it, and he is conscious of the joy of it and the freedom of it.

Now God imputed our sins to Jesus Christ as certainly as He imputes His righteousness to us. But when he imputes righteousness to us who are nothing but sinners, we realize it and are conscious of it and conscious of the joy of it. Therefore, when He imputed our sins to Jesus, He was conscious of the guilt of them and the condemnation of them, just as certainly as the believing sinner is conscious of the righteousness of Christ and the peace and joy of it that is imputed to him--that is, that is laid upon him.

In all this also, Jesus was precisely ourselves. Or in all points He was truly made like unto us. In all points of temptation He was ourselves. He was one of us in the flesh; He was ourselves, and thus He was ourselves in temptation. And in points in guilt and condemnation He was precisely ourselves, because it was our sins, our guilt and our condemnation that were laid upon Him.(A. T. Jones, 1895 sermon)[/quote']

Interesting thought, but I would like to see something a little more in the "safely inspired" category of teachings, (SOP or Bible). :-)

Mark

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN317-- He had temptations but He never had a desire to commit sin.

Have you considered this?

Quote:

“And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.” -Exodus 32:14

Consider the NRSV translation which renders it more accurately: "And the Lord changed his mind about the disaster that he planned to bring on his people."

[John317]

I thought James set us straight on how temptation can lead to sin. Not that it is sin, but yielding to it is.

This is precisely the point in James 1: 12, only a few lines before the 14th verse. Therefore the context shows that temptation alone is not sin. As you say, it is yielding to temptation that's sin. Yielding to it, of course, includes holding onto the thought and desire instead of immediately rejecting it.

[John317]

It should be pointed out that all SDA's believe Christ was capable of sinning. Where there is disagreement is in regards to Christ's flesh, or, to say the same thing in other words, the human nature He assumed.

Quote:

TWILIGHT--Exactly, it's the mind that makes one sinful so if Waggoner states that Christ Incarnated into biological matter that had a tendency to sin - Christ had "sinful tendencies" which is precisely what Waggoner stated - How is my assessment not factual?

Christ didn't have tendencies to sin; His flesh did. That is, Christ had flesh which had the same genetic tendencies to sin that ours has. But His mind was pure, and He had no tendencies to sin, because His own nature (not speaking of assumed human nature, but His own) was sinless.

Quote:

TWILIGHT--Adam's sin was a matter of free will, he sinned without any internal urges to do so. Adam did not have an internal urge (lust or desire) to eat of the fruit, he did so out of free will. What you are doing is comparing Christ to Adam whereas Sacred Scripture CONTRASTS Christ WITH Adam.

I agree! Adam's flesh was sinless, whereas, in contrast, Christ's was not. Adam chose to sin, whereas, in contrast, Christ chose not to.

I totally agree, pnattmbtc. The key point is that Jesus' victory was the victory of dependence on His Father and through the power given Him by the Holy Spirit. His victory was not due to His having been "exempted" by a different kind of nature.

[John317]

In the literal translation it says that; "each one is tempted WHEN---BY---HIS OWN EVIL desire.

According to your understanding, does the word that is translated "evil desire," epithumia, always refer to evil desires?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John 317

Yes, exactly, with the key being 'when SIN IS fully formed is paraphrased "Once SIN is fully formed". What is "it" (sin) prior to being perfected = "sin". The Bible says that "man is only" when he is drawn by his own lust for that which he desires therefore this Scripture is a road map for being tempted within sin (Satan has something in us) contrasted by being tempted externally.

What I desire or lust for in sin may not be what you desire or lust for however we can each take it to the bank that we both are pulled by desire for things classified as sin.

[/quote']

James 1: 14 says, "Each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed."

People, as you point out, are tempted not only by exterior things but by their own desires. Those desires are not necessarily sinful in and of themselves. But those desires may draw them away from God's will. For instance, God places within us a desire for food, for the society of other people, and for self-improvement, etc. These desires are not evil in themselves. They can be used for good or for evil. Christ had these same desires, but He always chose to use them for good, never for evil.

Jesus' desires, then, never gave birth to sin because He always chose to follow the will of the Father. He was filled with the Holy Spirit from the time of His conception and He didn't develop sinful propensities. We, on the other hand, have evil propensities from the time of our birth and therefore we must undergo the "New Birth" before we are controlled by the Holy Spirit. Of course, by the time we experience the infilling of the Holy Spirit, we have sinned many times and formed a great many sinful habits. Although Jesus was born with the same sinful nature as His mother Mary, He didn't develop the sinful habit patterns or propensities which we develop from birth.

[Gustave]

According to your understanding, does the word that is translated "evil desire," epithumia, always refer to evil desires?

That's dependent, in total, by the context of the Scripture where usage is found. In the case of James 1, 13 - 16 it's unequivocal. The type of desire spoken of is identified as sin in an un-perfected state and once 'that sin' is born out of the individual that same sin becomes perfected or completed.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

His desire was to obey the Father's will, and He rejected His own will when He found that His will came in conflict with the will of God. We can do the same by the same power that was available to Christ.

Christ's will was without blemish without exception every micro second He was Incarnate. Do you mean to say that Christ's desire that the cup be passed from Him was an evil lust within Himself and He resisted His temptation to back out of the deal by appealing to the Father?

I am saying that Christ had the normal human desire to live and not die. Death was a horror to Him and He had a natural desire to continue living. This natural desire is not sin. But when he found that this desire was in opposition to God's will that He die on the cross, He chose God's will over His own will to live. He quite naturally did not enjoy going through all the suffering and shame He had to pass through. He did it, though, because of His love for us and His love for the Father.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

According to your understanding, does the word that is translated "evil desire," epithumia, always refer to evil desires?

That's dependent, in total, by the context of the Scripture where usage is found. In the case of James 1, 13 - 16 it's unequivocal. The type of desire spoken of is identified as sin in an un-perfected state and once 'that sin' is born out of the individual that same sin becomes perfected or completed.

I believe the desires are not sin until "desire has conceived." In other words, the desire doesn't become sin until it draws us away from God's will. It's a choice we make. Jesus was born with the natural desires and feelings of humanity. But He chose always to submit these feelings and desires to the will of God and therefore His desires never "conceived" and gave birth to sin. By the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives, we may do the same.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

According to your understanding, does the word that is translated "evil desire," epithumia, always refer to evil desires?

That's dependent, in total, by the context of the Scripture where usage is found.

True. In the following verses, epithumia refers to desires that are not sinful. Some of these desires are good desires:

Matt. 13: 17

Mark 4: 19

Luke 16: 21

Luke 17: 22

Luke 22: 15

Phil. 1: 23

1 Thess. 2: 17

1 tim. 3: 1

Heb. 6: 11

1 Peter 1: 12

Rev. 18: 14

My point is that even good desires can become perverted and made to conceive sin. This is what we do and what Christ never did. He had the same desires but He never allowed them to lead Him to disobey God's will in either thought or action. The Bible teaches that believers who are infilled and led by the Holy Spirit are empowered to do the same. See Romans 6 & 8; Gal. 5; and 1 John 3: 1-10.

[John317]

According to the Bible I'm reading if Christ was ever, even ONE TIME tempted within Himself to do anything related to sin then HE HAD SIN, KNEW SIN, the Devil had something IN HIM, etc.

In John 14: 30, Jesus said the Devil was coming to Him and that "he has no hold on me" (NIV;Moffatt).

Other translations of this line:

.... nothing in common with me (Twentieth Century NT)

.... no rights over me (NEB)

.... no power over me (RSV; NRSV)

.... he has no claim on me (William Beck; Complete Jewish Bible)

I don't understand this verse to be opposed to the concept of Jesus' being born with the same nature as His mother and other ancestors.

Jesus never committed sin against God, nor did Christ ever have an evil desire to disobey God's will. Christ's desires never "conceived" and gave birth to sin. The point in James 1: 12-18 is that believers need NOT allow their desires to give birth to sin and become "full-grown." Believers are called upon to "endure temptation," i.e., resist temptation by the power of the Holy Spirit, the same Spirit that empowered Christ to resist and overcome. (Compare Rev. 3: 21; Heb. 4: 14-16; 2: 17-18; 5: 7-9)

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Heb 4,15

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling OF OUR INFIRMITIES; but was in all points tempted like as we are, YET WITHOUT SIN.

Look up "infirmities" as listed in that specific Scripture and see it is related to ONLY the body, as in weakness caused by sickness, hunger, pain, getting old, smashing your thumb, etc, etc, etc. Now, look at the literal translation,

Originally Posted By: Literal

for we have not a chief priest unable to sympathise with our infirmities, but [one] tempted in all things in like manner -- apart from sin;

"Apart from sin" means that Jesus never did any sin. It isn't referring to whether Jesus took fallen nature.

Modern language translations give it, "... and yet without committing any sin," "... the only difference being that he did not sin," "... and yet did not sin," etc.

Quote:

It's saying Christ knows exactly what it is to hurt, get sick, cry, not get enough sleep because He was tempted "through those things" by the best tempter in the universe, Satan, so Jesus was tempted in all things like us APART FROM SIN. Jesus had to free of all sin to be the spotless lamb that Satan had NOTHING in.

I believe you'll agree that "hunger, pain, getting old, smashing your thumb, etc.," are not sins. When the Bible speaks of Jesus' being tempted, it is referring to His being tempted to sin against God. It's very likely that Jesus did smash his thumb while learning the carpentry trade, and we know that He certainly did feel hunger and pain. He was no doubt tempted to use His divine power to avoid those things.

I think it's important to remember that the Bible says that Jesus was tempted in all points as [or like] we are. To me it seems obvious, then, that Jesus was tempted in the principle ways in which we are tempted. We are tempted to oppose God's will, so it seems obvious that Jesus was also tempted to oppose God's will.

[Guest]

Temptation is not sin; the sin lies in yielding. The strongest temptation is no excuse for sin. No matter how severe the pressure brought to bear upon you, sin is your own act. The seat of the difficulty is the unrenewed heart.

[John317]

I couldn't agree more, Richard. Very important point.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Every day Christ prayed to God for power and strength to keep His body and His will in subjection to the will of God. Remember his prayer and his struggle in the garden just before His arrest. We have to do the same, and when we do, God makes available to us the same power of the Holy Spirit that the Father gave to His Son. If the Son of God felt the need of this power, how much more conscious we ought to be of the same need.

What does this have to do with or better put teach Jesus having to resist His own evil desires in order that He wouldn't perfect HIS SIN? He was drawn to His evil desires but because He asked the Father for help He with the help of the Holy Spirit was able to subdue His evil desires and keep His evil desires from being FULLY perfected?

I've tried to see it John but I'm having a really hard time. It's sending chills up my spine.

Jesus never had evil desires.

No taint of, or inclination to, corruption rested upon Christ.

Jesus took man's nature in its fallen condition, but He never participated in sin. He didn't choose in the way we choose. Jesus was the spotless Lamb of God in a fallen body and nature.

[Gustave]

Richard & John317,

I would assume you both would be familiar with the use of a Greek Inter Linear New Testament.

For God--is.not---tempted--of.by---evil.things---and---He.tempts--and---Himself--no.one---But.each.one--is.tempted---By--the.his--own.desire--Having.conceived--Gives.birth.to--Sin--And.the---Sin--Having.come.to.full.growth---brings.forth--death

[Gustave]

Jesus never had evil desires.

No taint of, or inclination to, corruption rested upon Christ.

Jesus took man's nature in its fallen condition, but He never participated in sin. He didn't choose in the way we choose. Jesus was the spotless Lamb of God in a fallen body and nature.

This will be the last time I ask you this John. Did Jesus ever have to "resist" temptation so that He would not yield to His temptation?

[John317]

My question to you is if you base your doctrine on Sacred Scripture alone how is it that you feel justified in claiming that an evil desire to do an evil thing is not evil? How do you justify saying that a temptation you have to do an evil thing is not sin when the Greek of the New Testament explicitly says that the temptation itself is sin?

You're evidently misunderstanding what I'm saying.

I've never claimed that having an evil desire to do an evil thing is not evil. What I did say is that when a thought occurs to us that we know is wrong, and we immediately reject it, we have not sinned. That is resisting the temptation. "Having an evil desire" is holding onto the desire and not immediately rejecting it.

Please show how or where the Bible says that being tempted is itself sin. I don't believe that James 1: 14, 15 signifies this.

Check out James 1: 12. It says, "Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been proved, he will receive the crown of life..."

That certainly is not saying the man who is tempted and resists the temptation has sinned.

As far as I know, the Bible never teaches that people should ask forgiveness for having resisted temptation.

Jesus was mightily tempted in all points as we are, yet He never sinned. How could that be if being tempted is itself sin?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Jesus never had evil desires.

No taint of, or inclination to, corruption rested upon Christ.

Jesus took man's nature in its fallen condition, but He never participated in sin. He didn't choose in the way we choose. Jesus was the spotless Lamb of God in a fallen body and nature.

This will be the last time I ask you this John. Did Jesus ever have to "resist" temptation so that He would not yield to His temptation?

Jesus did indeed resist all temptation to sin, and the only reason He resisted temptation was in order not to yield to it. He hated sin and loved righteousness, just as Heb. 1: 9 tells us. He prayed earnestly for long periods every day for strength and power from the Father in order to stay true and loyal to Him and to all His commandments. Jesus' temptations were real, not make-believe. Jesus could have sinned, and if He had sinned, the entire world would have been utterly lost forever.

[John317]

Richard & John317,

I would assume you both would be familiar with the use of a Greek Inter Linear New Testament.

Originally Posted By: Greek word for word

For God--is.not---tempted--of.by---evil.things---and---He.tempts--and---Himself--no.one---But.each.one--is.tempted---By--the.his--own.desire--Having.conceived--Gives.birth.to--Sin--And.the---Sin--Having.come.to.full.growth---brings.forth--death

The Greek Text of the New Testament defines the desire to do a sin as SIN. The Greek Text of the New Testament further codifies that once we yield to temptation the only change in that specific sin is that it (the sin) "HAS COME" to full growth. Therefore, we read in the various translations of that New Testament Greek.

I agree with you-- and have said before-- that the desire to do a sin is sin. Jesus taught this point clearly in the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus did not desire to do a sin against God. He prayed earnestly that God would give Him strength to obey the Father's will rather than His human will. He human will would have led Him to try to save His life. The desire to live was not wrong, but it would have been wrong if Jesus had allowed it to entice Him into going against God's will. Therefore Christ always submitted His entire life to God's will.

Again, Christ never had a desire to do a sin against God. His desire was to resist temptation and obey God fully. But this was not because He was born differently than we are but it was due to His choice by the power of the Holy Spirit in His life.

[Gustave]

You're evidently misunderstanding what I'm saying.

I've never claimed that having an evil desire to do an evil thing is not evil.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

I'm not sure I'd use your language, but here's something which communicates the thought:

Quote:

God imputes righteousness, the righteousness of Christ, unto the believing sinner. Here is a man who has never known anything in his life but sin, never anything but the guilt of sin, never anything but the condemnation of sin. That man believes on Jesus Christ, and God imputes to that man the righteousness of Christ. Then that man who never committed a particle of righteousness in his life is conscious of righteousness. Something has entered his life that was never there before. He is conscious of it, and he is conscious of the joy of it and the freedom of it.

Now God imputed our sins to Jesus Christ as certainly as He imputes His righteousness to us. But when he imputes righteousness to us who are nothing but sinners, we realize it and are conscious of it and conscious of the joy of it. Therefore, when He imputed our sins to Jesus, He was conscious of the guilt of them and the condemnation of them, just as certainly as the believing sinner is conscious of the righteousness of Christ and the peace and joy of it that is imputed to him--that is, that is laid upon him.

In all this also, Jesus was precisely ourselves. Or in all points He was truly made like unto us. In all points of temptation He was ourselves. He was one of us in the flesh; He was ourselves, and thus He was ourselves in temptation. And in points in guilt and condemnation He was precisely ourselves, because it was our sins, our guilt and our condemnation that were laid upon Him.(A. T. Jones, 1895 sermon)[/quote']

Interesting thought, but I would like to see something a little more in the "safely inspired" category of teachings, (SOP or Bible). :-)

Mark

Truth is truth. It doesn't matter who says it. The Holy Spirit allows us to recognize truth, regardless of who says it; even the devil! (this thought is from A. T. Jones).

For the "sake of safety," this was taken from a sermon during the time when A. T. Jones was being specifically endorsed.

At any rate, the key thoughts are present from Scripture. A number of psalms will bring out the points A. T. Jones mentions, in terms of how sin was experienced by Christ.