Is Temptation Sin?

[Gustave]

Genesis 4:6,7

Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? "If you do well, will not {your countenance} be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."

"Sin is crouching...you must master it" Sin crouching at the door is temtation. When we are tempted we must not fail, but we must master it and do what is right. When,as a practice, we do not yeld to temptation the evil one will flee from us.

[wayfinder]

If one gawks with lust on a regular basis, I can guarantee that it will soon be more than gawking.

What I am saying is that the entertainment of a wrong thought on a regular basis diminishes the will to overcome the temptation. It is what God said to Adam about the tree of learning the knowledge of good and evil. Eve's words to the serpent "or even to touch it" is better translated, or to reach out as if to touch it. God was saying that even contemplating touching it was wrong, because it would diminish the will and lead to disobedience.

[pnattmbtc]

Me:Gustave, when James said, "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." your understanding is that what James really meant to say was, "But every man, except Christ, is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." Is this correct?

G:What I think is that James didn't mean to say it, he came right out and said it in black and white.

When James says, "Every man," that's "black and white" for "Every man but Christ"? No.

I can understand you're asserting this is what James meant, but it's certainly not what he said!

[Gustave]

If one gawks with lust on a regular basis, I can guarantee that it will soon be more than gawking.

[wayfinder]

Strong's Number: 5060 Naga`

1.to touch, reach, strike

a.(Qal)

1.to touch

2.to strike

3.to reach, extend to

[wayfinder]

2 Samuel 11:4

David sent messengers and took her, and when she came to him, he lay with her; and when she had purified herself from her uncleanness, she returned to her house.

2 Samuel 12:13

Then David said to Nathan, " I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has taken away your sin; you shall not die.

1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

To cleanse us from all unrighteousness the end result would be sinless.

[Gustave]

When James says, "Every man," that's "black and white" for "Every man but Christ"? No.

I can understand you're asserting this is what James meant, but it's certainly not what he said!

[wayfinder]

Revelation 2:2

`I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

When James says, "Every man," that's "black and white" for "Every man but Christ"? No.

I can understand you're asserting this is what James meant, but it's certainly not what he said!

Not so, this may help you understand.

Originally Posted By: Romans 3,23

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Does "all" include Christ?

Originally Posted By: Romans 5,12

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Did Christ die? Because Christ died does that indicate that He sinned?

James speaks of the mechanics of sin and details that the temptation ITSELF is sin that has yet to be perfected. That equates to temptation itself being a sin. Christ is the God-Man and as such there was no sin in Him therefore Christ was never tempted aside from being "tempted of Satan", "Tempted of the devil" (all outside of Himself).

Your assertion is such that Christ needed to be peccable. Seriously, where are you getting this? Who told you that?

Gustave, all I asked you is if when James said, "Every man" if you understood this to mean "Every man except Christ." I don't understand why you didn't just say, "Yes." Instead you're asserting James said something in "black and white" that he did not say.

[Guest]

Are you guys gonna argue all night long?

[Gustave]

Am I misunderstanding something or do Seventh-day Adventists teach that Christ was born with Original Sin?

[Guest]

No we don't

[Gustave]

Gustave, all I asked you is if when James said, "Every man" if you understood this to mean "Every man except Christ." I don't understand why you didn't just say, "Yes." Instead you're asserting James said something in "black and white" that he did not say.

A resounding YES. James did not associate Christ as being a part of the grouping, "every man". I said black and white simply because James said "God could not be tempted with evil" within the same context of our discussion. That looks pretty black and white to me.

[Lutz13]

Am I misunderstanding something or do Seventh-day Adventists teach that Christ was born with Original Sin?

My understanding is that Christ became 100% human. He was born with the same sinful flesh as we are born with. He faced all temptations just like we face. Yet He was able to conquer them.

By following His example, we can do the same.

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Gustave, all I asked you is if when James said, "Every man" if you understood this to mean "Every man except Christ." I don't understand why you didn't just say, "Yes." Instead you're asserting James said something in "black and white" that he did not say.

A resounding YES. James did not associate Christ as being a part of the grouping, "every man". I said black and white simply because James said "God could not be tempted with evil" within the same context of our discussion. That looks pretty black and white to me.

How do you get past this?

"For we do not have a Hight Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin."(Hebrews 4:16)

[Gustave]

Ok, so you are saying Christ had sinful desires but He resisted His temptation to perfect (follow through) with whatever the desire was? I just want to make certain I understand the theological position you are standing on.

[Lutz13]

Ok, so you are saying Christ had sinful desires but He resisted His temptation to perfect (follow through) with whatever the desire was? I just want to make certain I understand the theological position you are standing on.

Yes. Through His constant connection with the Father. Which is freely available to us.

[Gustave]

Ok, so you are saying Christ had sinful desires but He resisted His temptation to perfect (follow through) with whatever the desire was? I just want to make certain I understand the theological position you are standing on.

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Ok, so you are saying Christ had sinful desires but He resisted His temptation to perfect (follow through) with whatever the desire was? I just want to make certain I understand the theological position you are standing on.

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

Yes. Through His constant connection with the Father. Which is freely available to us.

Ok, which is it? Holbrook says Seventh-day Adventists don't teach Christ had concupiscence and you are saying they do. Which is it?

It is a personal belief. Paul said that He was tempted in all points just like we are. John said that the Word became flesh. Meaning 100% human. He was also divine and was tempted many times to use that divine power to overcome. Yet He never did.

[Gustave]

It is a personal belief.

[Guest]

I agree

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

[Guest]

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

[Gustave]

Richard,

Could you tell what specifically you agree with? Does Adventism allow individual members to re-define articles of faith that have been defined by the church? Has this been defined (sin by way of birth nature)?

[Guest]

100% God, and 100% Man

No the church dosn't allow anyone to do that, however There are different beliefs in the church right now.

You have the liberals and the conservative. Check out this thresd.

http://www.adventistforum.com/forum/ubbt...html#Post284414

[Gustave]

Ahhh, ok, I get it. The church is getting ready to split into two groups. One group believes that sin comes by way of birth while the other believes that Christ was born with sin and through a connection with the Father was able to resist and defeat His sin. I'll let this issue rest. For a bit there I thought SDA's rejected the doctrine of Original Sin OR accepted it provided that Christ was born with it. Thanks for blowing the smoke off this for me Richard. I would guess that the Liberals are the ones who advocate Christ was born with sin and worked His way through it.