Is Temptation Sin?

[Guest]

I guess that is what original sin is. The belief that you don't have to actually do anything to sin.

Satan was trying to get Jesus to sin by using his supernatural power to turn stones into bread. But he didn't do it, although he could have, he didn't. He defeated Satan with the same power that is offered to you and me. The power of the Holy Spirit. He proved it could be done.

1Co 10:13 There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it.

This text would have no meaning if the temptation itself were sin. What good would it do for God not to allow you to be tempted above what you are able, if you had already sinned by being tempted. None. That would render that text useless and meaningless.

Jas 1:15 Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.

Notice the sin is not there until you have acted on the lust. Not before.

[Twilight]

There are two factors here in my view.

There is the "old man" and his tendency to sin.

This is the man born of the carnal nature.

This will tempt us.

But we also have temptation from satan who "appeals" to the old man.

So we have two enemies as Christians.

The flesh and satan.

Mark :-)

[Gustave]

I guess that is what original sin is. The belief that you don't have to actually do anything to sin.

[Gustave]

There are two factors here in my view.

There is the "old man" and his tendency to sin.

This is the man born of the carnal nature.

This will tempt us.

But we also have temptation from satan who "appeals" to the old man.

So we have two enemies as Christians.

The flesh and satan.

More or less I agree with that. Paul speaks of such in Romans 7, 14-23 when he speaks of the never ending battle of the spririt Vs the carnal.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: twilight

There are two factors here in my view.

There is the "old man" and his tendency to sin.

This is the man born of the carnal nature.

This will tempt us.

But we also have temptation from satan who "appeals" to the old man.

So we have two enemies as Christians.

The flesh and satan.

More or less I agree with that. Paul speaks of such in Romans 7, 14-23 when he speaks of the never ending battle of the spririt Vs the carnal.

I read an interesting view that Paul is talking of the "unregenerate" Christian in Romans 7:14-23.

Converted in the sense of accepting Christ.

But not entered into the walk of the Spirit.

That is probably another discussion though...

Mark :-)

[John317]

More or less I agree with that. Paul speaks of such in Romans 7, 14-23 when he speaks of the never ending battle of the spririt Vs the carnal.

What do you believe is the reason that Romans 7: 14-23 doesn't mention the Holy Spirit?

[Guest]

No, No one else could have been the sacrifice but the son of God. The lamb of God.

And he defeated sin in the flesh.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

The text stands as it does not address Christological issues, it is speaking of the human condition and that God will prevent the devil assailing us directly as Christ was attacked becuase we could not handle that kind of attack. Only God can.

That is not what the text says. It says he will not allow us to be tempted above what we are able. -Able to resist-

What would be the point in that if we had already sinned just by being tempted.

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Eph 6:11,12 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

1Pe 5:8,9 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour:

Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world.

[John317]

What do you think of the following statements?

In His humanity Christ partook of our sinful, fallen nature. If not, then He was not "made like unto His brethren," was not "in all points tempted like as we are," did not overcome as we have to overcome, and is not, therefore, the complete and perfect Saviour man needs and must have to be saved. The idea that Christ was born of an immaculate or sinless mother, inherited no tendencies to sin, and for this reason did not sin, removes Him from the realm of a fallen world, and from the very place where help is needed. On His human side, Christ inherited just what every child of Adam inherits,- a sinful nature. On the divine side, from His very conception He was begotten and born of the Spirit. And all this was done to place mankind on vantage-ground, and to demonstrate that in the same way every one who is "born of the Spirit" may gain like victories over sin in his own sinful flesh. Thus each one is to overcome as Christ overcame. Rev. 3:21. Without this birth there can be no victory over temptation, and no salvation from sin. John 3:3-7.

God, in Christ, condemned sin, not by pronouncing against it merely as a judge sitting on the judgment-seat, but by coming and living in the flesh, in sinful flesh, and yet without sinning. In Christ, He demonstrated that it is possible, by His grace and power, to resist temptation, overcome sin, and live a sinless life in sinful flesh.

In His humanity Christ was as dependent upon divine power to do the works of God as is any man to do the same thing. He employed no means to live a holy life that are not available to every human being. Through Him, everyone may have God dwelling in him and working in him "to will and to do of His good pleasure." 1 John 4:15; Phil. 2:13.

[pnattmbtc]

Gustave, I thought you might be interested in seeing the following, which was written by a prominent SDA in 1889.

A little thought will be sufficient to show anybody that if Christ took upon Himself the likeness of man in order that He might redeem man, it must have been sinful man that He was made like, for it is sinful man that He came to redeem. Death could have no power over a sinless man, as Adam was in Eden, and it could not have had any power over Christ, if the Lord had not laid on Him the iniquity of us all. Moreover, the fact that Christ took upon Himself the flesh, not of a sinless being, but of a sinful man, that is, that the flesh which He assumed had all the weaknesses and sinful tendencies to which fallen human nature is subject, is shown by the statement that He "was made of the seed of David according to the flesh." David had all the passions of human nature. He says of himself, "Behold I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Ps. 51:5.

The following statement in the book of Hebrews is very clear on this point:

For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels; but He took on Him the seed of Abraham. ["For verily not of angels doth He take hold, but He taketh hold of the seed of Abraham." Revised Version.] Wherefore in all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted. Heb. 2:16-18

If He was made in all things like unto His brethren, then He must have suffered all the infirmities and been subject to all the temptations of His brethren. Two more texts that put this matter very forcibly will be sufficient evidence on this point. We first quote 2 Cor. 5:21:

For He [God] hath made Him [Christ] to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

This is much stronger than the statement that He was made "in the likeness of sinful flesh." He was made to be sin. Here is the same mystery as that the son of God should die. The spotless Lamb of God, who knew no sin, was made to be sin. Sinless, yet not only counted as a sinner but actually taking upon Himself sinful nature. He was made to be sin in order that we might be made righteousness. So Paul says to the Galatians that "God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons." Gal. 4:4,5.

"In that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted." "For we have not a High Priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need." Heb. 2:18; 4:15, 16.

One more point and then we can learn the entire lesson that we should learn from the fact that "the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us." How was it that Christ could be thus "compassed with infirmity" (Heb. 5:2) and still know no sin? Some may have thought, while reading thus far, that we were depreciating the character of Jesus by bringing Him down to the level of sinful man. On the contrary, we are simply exalting the "Divine power" of our blessed Saviour, who Himself voluntarily descended to the level of sinful man in order that He might exalt man to His own spotless purity, which He retained under the most adverse circumstances. His humanity only veiled His Divine nature, by which He was inseparably connected with the invisible God and which was more than able successfully to resist the weaknesses of the flesh. There was in His whole life a struggle. The flesh, moved upon by the enemy of all righteousness, would tend to sin, yet His Divine nature never for a moment harbored an evil desire nor did His Divine power for a moment waver. Having suffered in the flesh all that men can possibly suffer, He returned to the throne of the Father as spotless as when He left the courts of glory. When He lay in the tomb, under the power of death, "it was impossible that he should be holden of it," because he "knew no sin."

But someone will say, "I don't see any comfort in this for me. To be sure, I have an example, but I can't follow it, for I haven't the power that Christ had. He was God even while here on earth; I am but a man." Yes, but you may have the same power that He had if you want it. He was "compassed with infirmity," yet He "did no sin," because of the Divine power constantly dwelling within Him. Now listen to the inspired words of the apostle Paul and learn what it is our privilege to have:

For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that he would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man; that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God. Eph. 3:14-19.

Who could ask for more? Christ, in whom dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, may dwell in our hearts so that we may be filled with all the fullness of God. What a wonderful promise! He is "touched with the feeling of our infirmity." That is, having suffered all that sinful flesh is heir to, He knows all about it and so closely does He identify Himself with His children that whatever presses upon them makes a like impression upon Him and He knows how much Divine power is necessary to resist it, and if we but sincerely desire to deny "ungodliness and worldly lusts," He is able and anxious to give to us strength "exceeding abundantly, above all that we ask or think." All the power which Christ had dwelling in Him by nature, we may have dwelling in us by grace, for He freely bestows it upon us.

Then let the weary, feeble, sin-oppressed souls take courage. Let them "come boldly unto the throne of grace," where they are sure to find grace to help in time of need, because that need is felt by our Saviour in the very time of need. He is "touched with the feeling of our infirmity." If it were simply that He suffered eighteen hundred years ago, we might fear that He had forgotten some of the infirmity, but no, the very temptation that presses you touches Him. His wounds are ever fresh, and He ever lives to make intercession for you.

What wonderful possibilities there are for the Christian! To what heights of holiness he may attain! No matter how much Satan may war against him, assaulting him where the flesh is weakest, he may abide under the shadow of the Almighty and be filled with the fullness of God's strength. The One stronger than Satan may dwell in his heart continually and so, looking at Satan's assaults as from a strong fortress, he may say, "I can do all things through Christ, which strengtheneth me."

[Gustave]

What do you believe is the reason that Romans 7: 14-23 doesn't mention the Holy Spirit?

Because that's not the context of that section of Scripture. The Holy Spirit is Who inspired Paul to write what he did. Paul struggled with himself because his carnal nature was at war with his spiritual nature - Paul, a true Biblical heavy-weight warns Christians as to the mechanics and reality of Original Sin.

The Holy Spirit does not keep Original Sin from functioning.

[Gustave]

No, No one else could have been the sacrifice but the son of God. The lamb of God.

[pnattmbtc]

I repeat, that a man is ONLY tempted when he is drawn toward a thing BY HIS OWN LUST and if THAT "SIN" that's carried INSIDE of the individual becomes FULLY PERFECTED (acted out) at what point from the inception of the temptation to the end was the individual WITHOUT SIN?

If a man is only tempted when he is drawn toward a thing by his own desire ("lust" is archaic), then Christ was never tempted. This follows from what you said, doesn't it?

[Gustave]

Gustave, I thought you might be interested in seeing the following, which was written by a prominent SDA in 1889.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

What do you believe is the reason that Romans 7: 14-23 doesn't mention the Holy Spirit?

Because that's not the context of that section of Scripture. The Holy Spirit is Who inspired Paul to write what he did. Paul struggled with himself because his carnal nature was at war with his spiritual nature - Paul, a true Biblical heavy-weight warns Christians as to the mechanics and reality of Original Sin.

The Holy Spirit does not keep Original Sin from functioning.

Romans 6 through 8 says nothing about "original sin."

Notice that Romans 6: 1 & 15 teach that sin is a choice. It says that we don't have to go on in sin. It asks, "Shall we sin?" and the answer is, "Certainly not!" So it is clearly speaking of something that we can choose to do or not do. There's no indication that we MUST sin. (Please compare 1 John 2: 1 and 3: 5-8.)

It's obvious that the man of Romans 7 is not being led by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is convicting him of sin, but it's important to notice that this man doesn't accept Christ as his personal Savior from sin until the very last verse of chapter 7. Until that point, he can't do anything but practice sin. (See 7: 15.) Compare this, in Romans 8: 1-14, with the experience of someone who is walking in the Spirit.

According to Romans 8, the man of chapter 7 is not in the Spirit, and therefore he does not yet belong to Christ (v. 9). Romans 6: 1-18 says that when we die to sin, we are freed from sin and become slaves of righteousness. However, the man of Romans 7 is a slave of sin instead (7: 14-24). Sin and the flesh dominate his life. By his own admission, he lives according to the flesh. Romans 8: 13 says that if he continues to do this, he will die.

[Gustave]

If a man is only tempted when he is drawn toward a thing by his own desire ("lust" is archaic), then Christ was never tempted. This follows from what you said, doesn't it?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Christ was NEVER tempted apart from being tempted of the Devil. There was no point ever that Christ had to resist "HIS temptation" to do things of a sexual nature to the good looking Jewish girl that lived on His street. There was no point that Christ had to resist "HIS temptation" to beat up someone. No, Christ NEVER resisted internal temptation because Christ NEVER was drawn away by "His own lust" because Christ only had desire to do the Father's will.

The only temptation Christ suffered was external OUTSIDE of sin and it was conducted by the Father of Lies as in Satan himself.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

If a man is only tempted when he is drawn toward a thing by his own desire ("lust" is archaic), then Christ was never tempted. This follows from what you said, doesn't it?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Christ was NEVER tempted apart from being tempted of the Devil. There was no point ever that Christ had to resist "HIS temptation" to do things of a sexual nature to the good looking Jewish girl that lived on His street. There was no point that Christ had to resist "HIS temptation" to beat up someone. No, Christ NEVER resisted internal temptation because Christ NEVER was drawn away by "His own lust" because Christ only had desire to do the Father's will.

The only temptation Christ suffered was external OUTSIDE of sin and it was conducted by the Father of Lies as in Satan himself.

Ok, then you were inaccurate in saying that a man is only tempted when he is drawn toward a thing by his own desire. Men can also be tempted by the devil, just as Christ was, or by other men, by things seen on T.V. and so on ad infinitum. There is no lack of things which can tempt us.

Usually those who hold your position -- prelapsarian -- hold that Christ wasn't really tempted to do these things as we are. That is, His temptations weren't things He felt any desire to do, so they were easy for Him to say "no" too (not that they the things themselves that Christ had to do were easy).

So I'm guessing you'd agree with this? That is, when Christ was "tempted," it was a going through the motions sort of thing; Christ never had any desire to do any of things He was tempted to do.

[Gustave]

It appears we have demonstrated that Seventh-day Adventist believe that Christ didn't sin subesequent to having re-defined what sin is (compared to the historic understanding). Up to this point, the general consenus of the members who have posted here have appealed to;

Hebrews 2

If Christ took the seed of Abraham (Abraham was a sinner) and suffered being tempted then that equates to Christ having the birth nature of Abraham, therefore Christ was subject to the same evil desires that Abraham (or anyone else for that matter) would have been subject to. It must be that way otherwise Christ could not help and identify with those who were sinners.

2 Cor 5,21

If God made Christ to be sin for us then that must indicate that Christ had a sinful nature therefore Christ was peccable and while He didn't fail in His work He certainly stood the chance to indeed fail.

The premise or methodology used to affirm that Christ was peccable is based on the belief that the reality of temptation is built on the morality of the one being tempted. The same applies to having feelings of sympathy. Let's apply the premise to the other two Members of the Holy Trinity.

Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

If a man is only tempted when he is drawn toward a thing by his own desire ("lust" is archaic), then Christ was never tempted. This follows from what you said, doesn't it?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Christ was NEVER tempted apart from being tempted of the Devil. There was no point ever that Christ had to resist "HIS temptation" to do things of a sexual nature to the good looking Jewish girl that lived on His street. There was no point that Christ had to resist "HIS temptation" to beat up someone. No, Christ NEVER resisted internal temptation because Christ NEVER was drawn away by "His own lust" because Christ only had desire to do the Father's will.

The only temptation Christ suffered was external OUTSIDE of sin and it was conducted by the Father of Lies as in Satan himself.

Hey .. this is good stuff. Thank you Gustave.

[pnattmbtc]

Gustave, it's important that in this subject we be accurate. I notice a number of imprecise statements on your part. For example, you speak of Christ being peccable, but not SDA ever has taught this. What the prominent SDA said (whose name is E. J. Waggoner; sorry, I should have mentioned that) is not that Christ was peccable, but that He came in our flesh. His flesh was sinful, but He wasn't. How is this possible? By the simple fact that it is the mind which makes one sinful, not ones flesh.

Adam had sinless flesh, yet he chose to sin, and thus became sinful. Christ had sinful flesh, but never acceded to temptation. Because Christ never sinned, he was not sinful.

The flesh, of itself, cannot act contrary to God's will. Our sinfulness is determined by our mind, not our flesh.

Regarding the official position of the church, the official position is that both the prelapsarian and postlapsarian positions are allowed. Before 1950, the position of the church was postlapsarian. After that time, it became mixed.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Evil concupiscence IS SIN that is not completed / unperfected and exactly like James describes once "SIN" is finished it brings forth death. A person is tempted to do a thing when the person DESIRES to do a thing and Jesus has already told us that Satan had "NOTHING" in Him. What else would this mean given that the statement was given previous to the external temptation?

James said:

Quote:

But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. (James 1:14)

A person is enticed (this is what temptation is), but desire must "conceive" in order to "give birth to sin." If the desire does not conceive, there is no sin, since it has not been given birth to. It would certainly be misreading James intent to have him saying that there is sin where there is no conception of desire. That would destroy his entire illustration.

Regarding Satan not having anything in Christ, this is because Christ never allowed the conception James spoke of to occur, so sin was not given birth to, so there was no sin in Him.

[pnattmbtc]

Another way of seeing that Christ took our sinful flesh is that He said He came not to do His own will, but the will of His Father. Where did this other will come from, that He came not to do, if not from His flesh?

[skyblue888]

Yes I have read that statement that says that "the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God." This is a statement from the pen of inspiration.

The battle is in the realm of the mind.

Christ's flesh was just as sinful as ours but His mind never yielded to the flesh. He was tempted in all points like as we are yet without sinning. We have yielded to the flesh and our minds have become carnal. But we can have the mind of Christ. "We have the mind of Christ." "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus." 1 Cor.2:16; Phil.2:5.

"His experience is to be ours." D.A.363.

The teaching of the sanctuary is that God will at last have a people of whom it will be said, "Here are they who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus."

Then the end will come.

sky

[Guest]

Yes I have read that statement that says that "the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God." This is a statement from the pen of inspiration.

The battle is in the realm of the mind.

Christ's flesh was just as sinful as ours but His mind never yielded to the flesh. He was tempted in all points like as we are yet without sinning.

So can we.

The teaching of the sanctuary is that God will at last have a people of whom it will be said, "Here are they who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus."

Thus it is written, "His experience is to be ours." D.A.363.

sky

I don't think those statements carry that much weight with our Catholic brother. You would be better off using the Bible.

[skyblue888]

Gustave is Catholic?

[Guest]

Yes!