Is Temptation Sin?

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: John317

According to your understanding, does the word that is translated "evil desire," epithumia, always refer to evil desires?

That's dependent, in total, by the context of the Scripture where usage is found. In the case of James 1, 13 - 16 it's unequivocal. The type of desire spoken of is identified as sin in an un-perfected state and once 'that sin' is born out of the individual that same sin becomes perfected or completed.

James says that if desire conceives, it gives birth to sin. If there is no conception, there is no sin at all, just an in any conception. No conception = nothing.

[Guest]

Amen

[pnattmbtc]

I've never claimed that having an evil desire to do an evil thing is not evil. What I did say is that when a thought occurs to us that we know is wrong, and we immediately reject it, we have not sinned. That is resisting the temptation. "Having an evil desire" is holding onto the desire and not immediately rejecting it.

I agree with your idea here, the key point being what it means to "have" an evil desire. Gustave's thought seems to be if we have a thought to do something wrong, that wasn't introduced by an external source, then that's equivalent to having an evil desire, which is sin. But you are saying that having the thought, is not the same thing as having the desire, and that the thought must be cherished in order for there to be sin.

Our flesh tempts us to sin. Our flesh does not know we are married, and so shouldn't have sex without others who aren't our spouse, or that we shouldn't eat certain types of food, and so forth. We can feel a desire for these things without sinning, if we, as you've suggested, reject the given thought. We should do all we can to protect the avenues of the soul.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Jesus was mightily tempted in all points as we are, yet He never sinned. How could that be if being tempted is itself sin?

Why is it that every time you (and others here) quote this Scripture you leave out "INFIRMITIES" which is what the temptations are referring to? You realize you keep doing this, right?

You appear to be saying that Christ was tempted only in terms of physical ailments and weaknesses. But that is not true. When Hebrews 4: 15 says that Jesus can sympathize with our "weaknesses," it's referring to our moral weaknesses as well as our physical and intellectual weaknesses. The word "weaknesses" is translated from the Greek word, astheneia (Strong's#769), and is used of moral and intellectual imperfections in Romans 6: 19; 1 Cor. 2: 3; Hebrews 5: 2; and 7: 28.

In addition, Hebrews 2: 18 refers to Jesus' being tempted so intensely that He suffered greatly. Remember that as High Priest, Christ's role is to help us in our temptations so that we do not commit sin. His help is not primarily needed because of physical ailments but because of our moral and spiritual weaknesses. It's precisely because of Christ's personal experience with temptation that Hebrews 2: 16 invites us to "come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need."

[John317]

James says that if desire conceives, it gives birth to sin. If there is no conception, there is no sin at all, just an in any conception. No conception = nothing.

Excellent point, pnattmbtc, and very well put!

[John317]

God tempts no one nor can He be tempted of evil but each one is tempted when they are drawn by their own evil lusts and OUR lusts, once conceived "bring forth" (from US) sin and once that sin is fully perfected, death. That's terribly clear IMHO.

Literally, James 1: 14, 15 reads, "Each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it brings birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death (NKJV).

Please notice that the desires are not sin until that desire "has conceived." Jesus never allowed His desires to "conceive." Therefore, there was no birth. Sin is a choice. He rejected any desire that conflicted with God's will. You might say Jesus aborted the desire before it conceived. The Holy Spirit helps believers do the same.

See below concerning the meaning and significance of the word Epithumia, translated as "desire" by the NKJV, NRSV and many others.

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 1939

epiqumia from (1937)

Transliterated Word TDNT Entry

Epithumia

Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech

ep-ee-thoo-mee'-ah Noun Feminine

Definition

desire, craving, longing, desire for what is forbidden, lust

NAS Word Usage - Total: 38

coveting 2, desire 4, desires 8, earnestly 1, impulses 1, long 1, lust 5, lustful 1, lusts 15

[Gustave]

James says that if desire conceives, it gives birth to sin. If there is no conception, there is no sin at all, just an in any conception. No conception = nothing.

[Gustave]

What is sin when it's in the state of not being full grown John317? Are you saying it doesn't exist as sin? That Scripture says that it's un-perfected sin. Is un-perfected sin not sin in your view

[Guest]

Notice it does not become sin until after it has conceived, not before. The word "sin" does not enter into the text until after.

Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

[Gustave]

Notice it does not become sin until after it has conceived, not before. The word "sin" does not enter into the text until after.

Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

[John317]

What is sin when it's in the state of not being full grown John317? Are you saying it doesn't exist as sin? That Scripture says that it's un-perfected sin. Is un-perfected sin not sin in your view

I believe James 1: 12-18 is telling us that desire is not sin until it "conceives" and "gives birth to sin." Epithumia alone, therefore, is not sin. So, before it "conceives," desire is not sin. I understand "conceives" to be that point at which our desire draws us away from God's will and entices us.

Sin is certainly sin BEFORE it is "full grown," however. I understand "full-grown" to mean the point when sin becomes part of the behavior. It is sin when we are holding on to desires that we know are wrong.

[Guest]

To let sin reign is to follow through on it.

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

According to this text, if you endure the temptation without following through on it, or giving in to it, all is well.

______________________________________

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

It would not do any good for you or God, for him to make a way of escape, or make you able to bear it, if it was already sin. God is not in the business of helping people sin.

[John317]

"Let not SIN regin in your mortal body that you should obey IT in the lusts thereof". Sin gives birth to sin. That's why they call it Original Sin.

You folks want to say "Christ could-a sinned" and that "Christ had the same urges to sin as all of us do" I can't stop you. I can only share the Scriptures with you.

"Original sin," as Augustine formulated it, and as it is taught in the Catholic Church and by John Calvin, is not biblical, in my view. It's a term not found in the Bible, and I don't believe the concept is found in the Bible, either. Essentially it holds all humanity as guilty of Adam's sin and it results in the belief that sin is nature, whereas the emphasis of Scripture is that sin is a choice. If it was "nature" and not choice, such verses as Romans 6: 1, 15 and 1 John 3: 1-10 (and a whole host of others) wouldn't make sense.

Do you believe that it was impossible for Christ to sin?

[Gustave]

Do you believe that it was impossible for Christ to sin?

[Guest]

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

It would not do any good for you or God, for him to make a way of escape, or make you able to bear it, if it was already sin. God is not in the business of helping people sin.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Do you believe that it was impossible for Christ to sin?

It was as impossible for Christ to sin as it would be for God to sin, for God can not be tempted of evil. Would a maggoty sheep be a valid Sacrifice under the Old Covenant or did God require a lamb without blemish? Would a thing that Satan had "something" in be a valid Sacrifice? Lust is a maggot, that once perfected, becomes a fly. Scripture does not cast Christ as maggot ridden.

Originally Posted By: Isa 35,3

Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.

God can not be tempted of evil, thus says the Lord.

Jesus is both God and man. The divine nature of Christ was not tempted any more than God died or got tired or was hungry. Satan wasn't tempting God, for as you rightly point out, God cannot be tempted by evil. But Satan was tempting the man Jesus of Nazareth, and the human nature of Christ was definitely tempted and could definitely have chosen to sin. If Christ wasn't free to choose, then the whole "temptation" wasn't a true temptation at all. A temptation [test] is genuine only if there's a possibility of failure. Ever heard of a test where the person taking the test is absolutely guaranteed success? Would you say such a test should be taken seriously? If so, I doubt anyone else would.

[Guest]

That is true John, if it was impossible for him to sin then what was the point?

[Gustave]

Ok guys, Here's the POINT.

You are big into prophecy, right? I mean you put a lot of stock in it and spend a great deal of time thinking about it. Here,

your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.

Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert

[pnattmbtc]

"IT" is not sin until "IT" conceives. "IT" is 'evil desire' aka 'evil lust' and if Scripture interprets itself we must not

[Twilight]

Temptation is not sin; the sin lies in yielding. The strongest temptation is no excuse for sin. No matter how severe the pressure brought to bear upon you, sin is your own act. The seat of the difficulty is the unrenewed heart.

Important point.

You must be born again.

But what does it mean to be "born again" exactly?

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Richard & John317,

I would assume you both would be familiar with the use of a Greek Inter Linear New Testament.

The Greek Text of the New Testament defines the desire to do a sin as SIN. The Greek Text of the New Testament further codifies that once we yield to temptation the only change in that specific sin is that it (the sin) "HAS COME" to full growth. Therefore' date=' we read in the various translations of that New Testament Greek.

[/quote']

I agree with you-- and have said before-- that the desire to do a sin is sin. Jesus taught this point clearly in the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus did not desire to do a sin against God. He prayed earnestly that God would give Him strength to obey the Father's will rather than His human will. He human will would have led Him to try to save His life. The desire to live was not wrong, but it would have been wrong if Jesus had allowed it to entice Him into going against God's will. Therefore Christ always submitted His entire life to God's will.

Again, Christ never had a desire to do a sin against God. His desire was to resist temptation and obey God fully. But this was not because He was born differently than we are but it was due to His choice by the power of the Holy Spirit in His life.

I could do with your thoughts on the thread:

"There is a spirit in man..."

If you could spare any time, I would appreciate it John317.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

"IT" is not sin until "IT" conceives. "IT" is 'evil desire' aka 'evil lust' and if Scripture interprets itself we must not

You keep adding the word "evil." It's just "desire."

Quote:

14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.(James 1:14)(NKJV)

"Lust" is archaic English, which simply meant "desire" (the word didn't have the connotation it has today). Young's Literal Translation has

Quote:

14and each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed,

Regarding prophecy, prophecy is always stated in positive terms, even when human will is involved. For example, Jonah prophesied that in 40 days Nineveh would be destroyed, but it wasn't, because the people repented.

Quote:

7At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

8If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

9And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

10If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. (Jer. 18)

The above articulates the principle of prophesy conditioned upon free will.

In order for Christ's temptations to be real, there had to be the possibility of failure. Otherwise His temptations would have been just for show. But Hebrews tells us:

Quote:

15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

1For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

2Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity. (Heb. 4:15-5:2)

Christ is able to help us, because He knows what we go through, having gone through it Himself.

Just to add to this.

We have desires that come to us to go against the will of God.

If we choose to line our will up with Gods will.

Receive His will in the matter, then we have not sinned.

Being offered the choice is not "sin".

What you do with the choice defines what is "sin".

If we are saying "choice" is sin, then Jesus sinned.

Because He had "choices" placed before Him.

Of course, this would mean we have to throw many parts of scripture out.

So we have to reject the idea that the "presentation" of a "choice" is the same as "making" the choice. :-)

Mark

[John317]

Ok guys, Here's the POINT.

You are big into prophecy, right? I mean you put a lot of stock in it and spend a great deal of time thinking about it. Here,

Originally Posted By: Isa 35,4

your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.

That sounds pretty POSITIVE to me. God WILL save you contrasted with God might, if He can keep from yielding to His own desires.

Please consider 7 points:

1) God-- referring here to the Trinity-- knows the end from the beginning.

2) Christ "emptied Himself" of the prerogatives of Deity when He came as a human.

3) That means when on earth as a man, Christ was dependent on the Father for all His knowledge and wisdom.

4) Therefore it follows that the man Christ Jesus did not know the end from the beginning.

5) God's omniscience and the prophecies did not interfere with Christ's genuine freedom to choose, nor do they interfere with our free will.

6) The prophecies of the Second Coming and of man's salvation were predicated upon Christ's living & dying for the human race.

7) All prophecies are conditional, and the prophecies regarding the salvation of the world through Christ are no exception. All would have been lost if Christ had failed. Everything was riding on the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. We owe everything to Christ.

[pnattmbtc]

7) All prophecies are conditional, and the prophecies regarding the salvation of the world through Christ are no exception. All would have been lost if Christ had failed. Everything was riding on the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. We owe everything to Christ.

This is the salient point of the 7.

(Just out of curiosity, when you say all prophecies are conditional, would you include the prophecies of Daniel? -- such as the 2300 day prophecy, or the 70 week prophecy)

[Gustave]

You are not understanding. It's rather simple and I have found something that might help you see what it is that I'm talking about.

But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {13MR 18.1}