Have you ever noticed ???

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

I agree with you Red. It is between the individual and God. We shouldn't be going around saying "If you reject this, you're on dangerous ground!"

Like what was made known to me, not everyone is ready for certain truths. It doesn't make them condemned if they reject it at that time. The path God lays out for them may cause them to accept it years down the road.

I have many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now...

This often illustrates the leading of the Holy Spirit.

God "leads" into truth.

The devil "forces" truth.

It is easy to see which spirit is in control when we understand this simple principle.

Mark :-)

I fully agree with your statement that God "leads" into truth, and the devil "forces" truth.

Put Saul/Paul into that principle and see what you get.

[Guest]

A general slain in battle is lost to his army, but his death gives no additional strength to the enemy. But when a man of prominence joins the opposing force, not only are his services lost, but those to whom he joins himself gain a decided advantage. Saul of Tarsus, on his way to Damascus, might easily have been struck dead by the Lord, and much strength would have been withdrawn from the persecuting power. But God in His providence not only spared Saul's life, but converted him, thus transferring a champion from the side of the enemy to the side of Christ. An eloquent speaker and a severe critic, Paul, with his stern purpose and undaunted courage, possessed the very qualifications needed in the early church. {AA 124}

[John317]

I get that Paul was a genuine apostle.

He said, "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." His whole life after Damascus was spent trying to persuade anyone who would listen that Jesus is the Messiah.

[Guest]

Amen!

[John317]

As the moderator:

Your post here is very close to crossing the line. I've asked that this topic not hijack public threads and that it be brought up only on the private threads that are designed for it.

[Musicman1228]

John,

I thought the reference was justified in light of the topic. I'm sorry I made that reference.

Please give me your feed back to my question: Is it in God's nature to use force to 'guide' someone to the truth even if it is against their expressed will, or does God use only the 'gentle persuasion' of the Holy Spirit to bring people into the truth?

Some secondary questions: How important is the exercise of 'free will' to God? Are there any Biblical examples where God used force to over-ride the wishes of a person in order to get them to do His will and obey His commandments?

[Guest]

What about Pharaoh?

[Guest]

What about Balaam?

[John317]

Please give me your feed back to my question: Is it in God's nature to use force to 'guide' someone to the truth even if it is against their expressed will, or does God use only the 'gentle persuasion' of the Holy Spirit to bring people into the truth?

I don't agree that God used "force" against Paul to get him to do what He wanted. God knew Paul's heart, that he wanted to do what is right.

Make your case that Acts says God did something in the instance of Paul that God would not do.

Was Paul glad or was he angry that God spoke to him on the road to Damascus? What were the fruits of Paul's life after Damascus?

Quote:

Some secondary questions: How important is the exercise of 'free will' to God?

God only accepts worship that is freely and intelligently given. He will do whatever He must do in order to get people's attention. A lot of people are very dense and it takes a lot for them to hear Him. In the case of the apostle Paul, once God got through to him, his writings show that he was indeed joyful that God spoke to Him as He did on the road to Damascus. From that time until his martyrdom for Christ, the great apostle worshipped & served the Lord freely and intelligently.

Quote:

Are there any Biblical examples where God used force to over-ride the wishes of a person in order to get them to do His will and obey His commandments?

As Richard has pointed out, there is Pharoah, Balaam, and there is also Jonah, Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 4: 33, 34), Job's four friends (Job 42: 7-9), David (2 Sam. 12: 9, 10), and the children of Israel (see, for instance, Judges 2: 11-15; 3: 7, 8), etc.

[Musicman1228]

In every one of these cases that have been sited (Pharaoh, Balaam, Jonah, etc.) what God did was to get them to acknowledge a decision they had ALREADY MADE, not to change their minds about that decision, or to force an original decision in His favor.

The pressure of the 10 plagues in Egypt did not force Pharaoh to let Israel go, they did not affect his decision at all. It was the calling out of the Kingdom of Heaven (Israel) because of the Passover that finally got his attention, through the death of his son. He was warned by God through Moses as to what would happen if He refused to obey, but the Passover was not about Pharaoh and Egypt it was about Israel becoming the Kingdom of Heaven. After his son was killed he willingly let them go, having acknowledged that the God of Moses was the supreme God, then he went back to his original decision and tried to get them back.

Balaam and Jonah had previously been called as prophets by God and both tried to back out of the deal. God used 'force' to hold them to their already made commitments, He did not use 'force' to get them to make that commitment in the first place.

Daniel showed Nebuchadnezzar the power of God through interpreting a dream that NO ONE in Babylon knew except the King. This is why Nebuchadnezzar would not tell his dream to the 'wise men, sorcerors and Chaldeans', it would have been too easy for them to make up an interpretation. Nebuchadnezzar acknowledged the God of Daniel was the supreme God above the other gods of Babylon (real gods-evil angels-nephilim) of his own free will. Later God held him to account because of that acknowledgment, because Nebuchadnezzar had already established who God was in his mind.

If you have already declared that you are a servant of the Living God you then allow God to hold you accountable to that commitment using what ever means are at His command. God NEVER uses force to get someone to make that initial commitment in acknowledging that He is the God of Creation.

I wonder why, when people accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior they think that God will not hold them accountable for that act? God holds everyone accountable for their decisions, whether for Him or against Him. If there is no means for the acknowledgment of the commitment (as in a Covenant) then how is that person able to actually know that what they say they have committed to Him has actually been committed to Him? How is God able to hold anyone accountable for their commitment to Him without something that identifies that commitment as real?

This is the purpose of the Covenant/10 Commandments; it is an acknowledgment by the believer to God that they are indeed (in 'deed') committed to Him.

Just as with Pharaoh it is not to prove your commitment to God, He knows whether you are committed or not; it is to prove to YOU that you have made the commitment in good faith and without duress, of your own free will.

God will, and does, remind us of our commitment to Him, sometimes using outside pressures. But in the end whether we stay with Him or leave Him is entirely up to us.

[John317]

In every one of these cases that have been sited (Pharaoh, Balaam, Jonah, etc.) what God did was to get them to acknowledge a decision they had ALREADY MADE, not to change their minds about that decision, or to force an original decision in His favor.....

If you have already declared that you are a servant of the Living God you then allow God to hold you accountable to that commitment using what ever means are at His command. God NEVER uses force to get someone to make that initial commitment in acknowledging that He is the God of Creation.

But Paul already had made a commitment in acknowledging that God is the Creator. He had been serving the Living God all of his life. He thought he was keeping the laws of God. What happened on the road to Damascus was simply that God woke him up to the fact that he was fighting against Jesus. By your own argument, God had a perfect right to do that.

[John317]

In every one of these cases that have been sited (Pharaoh, Balaam, Jonah, etc.) what God did was to get them to acknowledge a decision they had ALREADY MADE, not to change their minds about that decision, or to force an original decision in His favor.

The pressure of the 10 plagues in Egypt did not force Pharaoh to let Israel go, they did not affect his decision at all.

God used "force" BEFORE Pharaoh made the decision to let the people go. Ex. 8: 8 records the first time Pharaoh says he will let the people go, and that comes AFTER the Lord used "force." See Ex. 4: 23 and 7: 1-25. Therefore it is not true that God got him to acknowledge a decision he had already made. It was a direct result of the tenth plague that Pharaoh told Moses to take the Israelites out of Egypt. Ex. 12: 29-33. The Egyptians feared that God would kill them all if they didn't free the Israelites.

Ex. 11: 2, 3 says that the Lord made the Egyptians look with favor on the Israelites and give them anything they asked for. Compare Ps. 106: 46. It makes it clear that without the Lord using "force," they wouldn't have let Israel have everything they asked for. You can't say this was something the Egyptians had promised before and that the Lord was merely making them keep their commitment.

[John317]

In every one of these cases that have been sited (Pharaoh, Balaam, Jonah, etc.) what God did was to get them to acknowledge a decision they had ALREADY MADE, not to change their minds about that decision, or to force an original decision in His favor.

You made no mention of Job's four friends (Job 42: 7-9). Their case is very similar, if not identical, to Paul's. They thought they were doing God a favor by defending Him. But they were actually doing God a disservice. This was also Paul's situation. He thought he was doing God a favor by fighting against Christianity, but God came to both Job's friends and to Paul with the message that they had been opposing God. Paul showed by his life afterwards that he was glad God showed him his error.

[Musicman1228]

John,

You seem to be struggling here with your logic stream. You say that Paul was a servant of the living God all his life. Actually,he was an enforcer hired by the Sanhedrin to hunt down and kill people who were followers of the Way. How can a man filled with this kind of abject hate toward people of his own nation, and a murderer be a servant of the living God, the God of Creation is a stretch of logic that goes way beyond my pay grade. But if that makes you happy, have at it.

It doesn't matter to God what a man thinks, it is what a man does by which he is judged. The only way that someone like Paul could be brought to a realization that what he was doing was wrong would be by force; and I believe it was you that said that God does not use force to change the minds of people opposed to His will. If I am mistaken in this then I apologize ahead of time.

[John317]

John,

You seem to be struggling here with your logic stream. You say that Paul was a servant of the living God all his life. Actually,he was an enforcer hired by the Sanhedrin to hunt down and kill people who were followers of the Way.

He was a Jew who worshipped and prayed to the Living God. He was committed to serving Him. He believed he was serving God. He was no different in that way from millions of people who believe they are doing right when they are doing wrong. He had zeal for God but not according to true knowledge, just like many others.

Everyone knows that he killed Christians. He was infamous for it. But he thought he was doing what the Living God wanted him to. He said himself, "I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it" (Gal. 1: 13).

Quote:

How can a man filled with this kind of abject hate toward people of his own nation, and a murderer be a servant of the living God, the God of Creation is a stretch of logic that goes way beyond my pay grade. But if that makes you happy, have at it.

It's not a question of whether I am happy that Paul persecuted the church. Of course I am not happy that anyone had other people killed. (I'm also not happy that Moses thought he was doing the right thing when he murdered an Egyptian.) But Paul is not the first murderer and persecutor who has repented, been forgiven, and worked for God in spreading the gospel. Thank God that He is willing and happy to forgive even the worst sins and the worst of sinners who sincerely repents.

Quote:

It doesn't matter to God what a man thinks, it is what a man does by which he is judged. The only way that someone like Paul could be brought to a realization that what he was doing was wrong would be by force;

God didn't force Paul to do anything. He could have rejected God's commission. God's grace is not irresistible. As said before, God knew Paul's heart (Acts 15: 8)-- that Paul wanted to do God's will. All that Paul needed was to have his eyes opened as to the true identity of Christ, that He was the Messiah. This is proven by the rest of the book of Acts and by Paul's Epistles.

Quote:

and I believe it was you that said that God does not use force to change the minds of people opposed to His will. If I am mistaken in this then I apologize ahead of time.

God has used some extraordinary means to change people's minds. He doesn't force the will, however, even though it may appear that way in some instances. He didn't force Paul's (or Saul's) will, either. Certainly not any more than He forced the will of some other people in the Bible, such as those I mentioned earlier. When we look at Paul's experience after Damascus, we don't see a man whose will has been forced but a man who is thrilled that God saved him and called him to suffer for the sake of Christ.

[phkrause]

Good points John.

pk

[Dr. Rich]

By the way--what is the real topic of this thread? Have we noticed what? John, what about Mohammad? Was he forced by God or not? How come so many people believe in him? How can so many people be wrong?

[Dr. Rich]

By the way--what is the real topic of this thread? Have we noticed what? John, what about Mohammad? Was he forced by God or not? How come so many people believe in him? How can so many people be wrong?

[Guest]

Hey Rich, I notice you posted the same thing twice. Are you getting senile, what?

[Musicman1228]

John said, "God didn't force Paul to do anything. He could have rejected God's commission."

I think it has been established on this forum (and not just by me) that the God of Heaven does not use force to accomplish a change of heart in an individual. (Pharaoh already had a hardened heart, God just provided the means by which this became apparent.) If Paul was blinded by the God of Heaven to get him to have a change of heart then the only recourse by which Paul could get back his eyesight would be to succumb to the will of God. It is apparent that Paul knew that if he did not do what this Jesus said then he would remain blind. The being that accosted Paul on the road to Damascus told Him that he must to go to the city and visit someone who would give him his sight back. If this is not a description of coercion I don't know what is. The God of Heaven does not do this even to His enemies.

Richard,

Your comment about Dr. Rich becoming senile because he posted twice was uncalled for and insulting. I am sorry to see that you are so insecure within yourself that you need to belittle someone so that you can somehow feel superior to them.

[Guest]

MM, first grow some skin. Second, mind your own business. I wasn't even talking to you. I would never say something like that to you, because I know how thin skinned you are, and how emotional you get. Rich and I have a repore, and we understand each other. Actually we're friends. We talk through e-mail, and send each other stuff all the time. If I thought for one minute he was actually senile, I wouldn't have said it. He knows that. I know that. And now you know that.

Unlike my friend Rich, I don't claim to understand you, which is why I don't joke around with you.

[SivartM]

Have you ever noticed ???

That everything turns into a discussion about Paul? Seriously, for not liking him, some people sure talk about him a lot.

[Guest]

They're planting seeds.

[John317]

John, what about Mohammad? Was he forced by God or not? How come so many people believe in him? How can so many people be wrong?

Do you think God forced Mohammed?

A spirit came to him, which Mohammed at first believed was an evil spirit, but then his wife and others persuaded him to go back and listen to it again.

This is among the first lines that the spirit dictated to Mohammed:

Quote:

Destroyed will be the hands of Abu Lahab [a man of a fiery temper] ....

He will be roasted in the fire, and his wife, the portress of fire wood [the bearer of slander], will have a strap of coir [twisted] rope around her neck. 111: 1, 3-5

Abu Lahab refers to an uncle of Mohammed. He and his wife opposed Mohammed, and they died just as Mohammed said they would.

The Bible says that God allows us to believe a lie if we don't love the truth. It's not hard to figure out how so many people can be wrong about Islam. For one thing, they generally don't study the Bible in order to learn the truth. They particularly do not like the apostle Paul.

God doesn't force us to believe something. He didn't force Paul to believe in Christ. God gave Him evidence that Jesus was alive and the Messiah. Aren't you glad He did? I am.

[Musicman1228]

MM, first grow some skin. Second, mind your own business. I wasn't even talking to you. I would never say something like that to you, because I know how thin skinned you are, and how emotional you get. Rich and I have a repore, and we understand each other. Actually we're friends. We talk through e-mail, and send each other stuff all the time. If I thought for one minute he was actually senile, I wouldn't have said it. He knows that. I know that. And now you know that.

Unlike my friend Rich, I don't claim to understand you, which is why I don't joke around with you.

I am stunned, Richard, and not quite sure how to respond to you. Quite frankly I feel like doing unto you as you have done unto me, meeting your snide and disrespectful remarks not only to me but to Dr.Rich with my own. I am not going to do that, however. I have already made the commitment to myself to not take things so personally when your insults are directed at me. When you direct this toward acquaintances that you have met online, that is quite another thing. Be careful with what you think might be just good fun, it could end up backfiring on you, and then you might actually loose a friend.