Have you ever noticed ???

[wayfinder]

Romans 7:1 Do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to men who know the law--that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3 So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man. 4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

And what does Paul mean when he says "written code"

Ro 7:6

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Colossians 2:13-15

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

Galatians 4:21-31

Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise. 24 These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar.

2 Corinthians 3:6-11

6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

"Ministry that brought death"! He is saying these things about the Ten Commandments and saying that the glory the Ten Commandments brought is fading like the glory with which Moses face shone. He is talking about God's Law!

[Guest]

Paul just keeps the law for a different reason than you do. You keep the law (or say you do) because you think by keeping the law you will become righteous. Righteousness dosn't come through the law though, just like Paul says. But it still has to be kept, because not keeping the law will be your downfall, and cause you to be lost.

Paul keeps the law because he has been freely forgiven for his past sins. (justification- by faith) So he keeps the law because he loves the Lord for what he has done for him. The Lord in turn gives him power to keep the law. (Grace)& (sanctification).

You keep the law thinking it will cause the Lord to love you, and make you righteous.

Paul keeps the law because he already has recieved righteousness (by faith) and knows the Lord already loves him. He want's to please God and God gives him the power to do so.

Paul has things in the proper order. His way leads to sanctification and righteous living.

You on the other hand, have the cart before the horse. Your way leads to frustration, lack of power, wrong ideas, (the Holy Spirit can't lead because you're leading the way) and eventually death.

[wayfinder]

That is what Paul says about the Law (Ten Commandments), that they are impossible to keep. The God I serve and worship would never give a covenant (Ten Commandments) that He knew were impossible to keep. Think about it, God said if you love Me keep my commandments and if you keep My commandments you show that you love Me.

Re 12:17

So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Re 14:12

Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith (convection of truth) in Jesus.

In this next text, Daniel aknowledges that Israel did not keep the commandments, but he makes no excuses about it, such as they are impossible to keep and they were given to reveal sin, before which we had no knowledge of (Ro 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.).

Da 9:4

I prayed to the LORD my God and confessed and said, "Alas, O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and lovingkindness for those who love Him and keep His commandments,

[Musicman1228]

Richard said, "You on the other hand, have the cart before the horse. Your way leads to frustration, lack of power, wrong ideas, (the Holy Spirit can't lead because you're leading the way) and eventually death."

No, Richard, the Way that I subscribe to is a way that leads YOU to frustration, lack of power, and wrong ideas, but not me. That is because you prefer a way that does not require any personal responsibility, a way that allows you to rely on the efforts of someone other else to achieve the goals for righteousness set by God and made possible by the power of the Holy Spirit working in you. You do not believe that anyone can ever achieve righteousness as was Jesus Christ, just because Paul says that this is impossible. You believe that righteousness is a gift, and not earned. You choose to align yourself with an idea that is counter to what Jesus Christ taught, and instead take the easy way by agreeing with Paul in his concept that we can have the righteousness of Jesus Christ by merely believing in something called 'grace', brought about by faith.

There are two spirits in the world, and both lead the way; one to a wide way, the other to a narrow way. One is an easy way, the other is hard. Many people confuse the two spirits, thinking one is the other. One spirit makes you feel good, makes you believe that everything has been done for you by Jesus Christ, makes you believe that you need no new information, no new thought, and certainly no new actions. It makes you believe that the Law of God was put aside at the cross, that Jesus fulfilled the law so you need do nothing except accept Him as your personal Savior. This spirit makes you believe that your flesh can sin but you mind can remain righteous, and that removing sin from your life is not a requirement for salvation, since we are saved by grace.

Jesus taught that to enter the Kingdom of Heaven and be saved one must be born of the true Holy Spirit as was He. He said that we must Do the truth and then we come to the light, not the other way around. He said we must keep His commandments to prove that we love Him, no 'ifs', 'ands', or 'buts'. He said we must become sanctified in the truth, and we do this by putting HIS thoughts in our hearts and minds through His words. He said that anyone that sins is not a member of His family. He said that it is Truth that sets us free, not faith.

The differences are profound in the theology of Jesus Christ and that of Paul. Yet you will not listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit leading you to investigate these differences, because you are absolutely sure that you are right, and anyone that believes differently than you is wrong. This is the same hubris and arrogance that was displayed by Paul, and is the reason he said that God gave him a 'messenger of Satan' to keep him from becoming arrogant and boastful. Does Jesus Christ the Son of God do this sort of thing? And if HE does did he do that for you as well, giving you a demon to 'help' you become a better Christian? That is NOT the way Jesus Christ and God operate.

You sincerely believe that I am in big trouble because I won't believe the way you do. However, I wonder who is in a bigger world of hurt, the person that takes the easy, wide way that is subscribed to by most Christians (which, of course, makes it right in their eyes), or the difficult, narrow way that very few find, and is looked upon by those on the wide way as the work of Satan, because that way could not possibly be from God; it is just too hard and complex.

Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. Matt.7:13-14.

[Guest]

My way is not the easy wide way. Those that say it dosn't matter what you do, are on the wide path. They say as long as you believe in Jesus, you can't stop sinning anyway, so why try? They believe that they can keep right on sinning until the day Jesus comes, without even a thought of letting the HS perfect their character, they don't even try to stop sinning, or change the way they think, because they don't believe it can be done. They fully believe they will still be excepted in their un-changed condition. Without the robe of righteousness. They are the ones who will not have on the wedding garment when the time comes.

That is not what I believe, and I know that is not what you believe. You are off the road on the other side, in the other ditch. Believing that faith and grace have nothing to do with salvation. That it is all by your own effort, without God's help.

Did you know that God hates the sin of self suffenciency? He Hates that! That's where the children of Israel went wrong. They said: Yes we will do all that God has said. They didn't figure in the grace of God to give them power to do. They said WE will do. That's why they failed.

You have taken self-sufficiency to a whole new level that I have never seen before. You actually believe that you know more than the prophets of God. You believe that you have the wisdom and the authority to discard whole books of the Bible. And to decide which parts are right and which parts are wrong. Now you have even started cutting into the words of Matthew (one of your so called eyewitnesses) saying he is wrong about certain things.

It won't stop there brother. I just watch with amazement, for I have never seen such arrogance mixed with self sufficient falshood.

[Dr. Rich]

John wrote the following (to me):

"Could you tell us how you've determined that the following points are false or unreliable? Please comment on each one and show us your reasoning.

1) God showed Ananias a dream in which he was told about Paul being God's "chosen vessel." He was also told that Paul would have to suffer many things for Christ's name. Acts 9: 13-16.

2) Ananias was "a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who lived in Damascus" (Acts 22: 12).

3) This devout man told Paul that God had showed him he was to help Paul receive his sight back and also to be filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9: 17).

Note: The first three points confirm that Paul's experience on the road to Damascus was genuine. A trusted and trust-worthy believer received a vision from God about Paul BEFORE Paul contacted him. All that God showed him in this vision came to pass.

4) Paul did receive his sight and the book of Acts and the letters Paul wrote show that he was filled with the Holy Spirit. (Acts 9: 18; 13: 9)

5) Paul soon began to preach powerfully about Jesus, showing from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Messiah. (Acts 9: 20-22)

6) Barnabas, Silas, and others in the church accepted Paul and trusted him with responsibilities in preaching and taking relief to poor Christians. (Acts 9: 26-30; 11: 22-30; Acts 16.) Barnabas was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. (Acts 11: 24)

7) The Holy Spirit told the early Christians to lay hands on Paul and Barnabas and send both men off to preach the gospel. (Acts 13: 1-5.)

8) The Holy Spirit gave proof that Paul was a true apostle. (Acts 13: 9-12; 15: 12; Acts 16: 16: 15-34.)

9) The Jerusalem Council accepted Paul's apostleship and the gospel he preached. (Acts 15: 22-35)

10) The immense suffering and persecution of Paul demonstrates his sincerity and show that he was a genuine believer in Christ. He eventually died for his faith in Christ.

11) The fruits of his labor in Christ in raising up many churches is strong evidence that Paul was a genuine apostle of Jesus Christ. This exactly fulfilled what Jesus told Paul at the beginning of his apostleship. (Acts 22: 21)

12) The influence of Paul's letters in changing the lives of many millions of people and in bringing countless millions to Christ is a powerful witness to Paul's genuineness as an apostle of Christ.

13) Finally, the fact that all the Christian churches in all parts of the world accept Paul's letters as Scripture is proof that Paul is a true apostle of Christ."

John and Richard, Sorry about not answering right away but I have been busy answering (as a secretary) a suit for a client by a party who is attempting to do a foreclosure. The ISSUE for my answer and motion for dismissal/summary judgment in my client's favor, is the SAME for all of the answers to your questions John. Namely, lack of foundation.

Fortunately, I have brand new case law (Oct. 6, 09) to support my pleading--that NO ONE other than the investors have legal authority to file an action or foreclose--and they refuse to do so because they have been paid by insurance or the bailout already.

On the other hand, I have only the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses to support my answers to all of your questions.

For all answers to questions found from Acts--the answer is Lack of Foundation! Luke never knew Jesus and was taught by Paul--and there you go! You don't have a solid foundation by using ANYTHING that Luke wrote!--Period! It is ALL hearsay.

As for #6--also, All of these one time companions of Paul left him because of his false teachings.

To answer the other questions--MM did a great job and I say AMEN to this. So John and company, go ahead and follow the words of Paul and see where it gets you. As for me--I will do what Jesus said to do and OBEY the words of God!

PS: IF I am right, you are lost. If YOU are right, I am still saved by grace. Betting your soul is something I can't mess around with!

[John317]

As for #6--also, All of these one time companions of Paul left him because of his false teachings.

Here is #6:

Barnabas, Silas, and others in the church accepted Paul and trusted him with responsibilities in preaching and taking relief to poor Christians. (Acts 9: 26-30; 11: 22-30; Acts 16.) Barnabas was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. (Acts 11: 24)

Please provide evidence and references to show that all these people left Paul because of his false teachings.

[Dr. Rich]

Do your own research. You will find that Barabas had differences with Paul and refused to go with him anymore. Same with Silas. I don't have the time now to find this, but will do it when I can.

Besides, ALL of the verses you gave came from Luke--who I seriously doubt knew the whole truth. Lots of stories were made up by him as if Jesus said them. You will not find the stories in the other gospels. Sorry about that.

[John317]

Do your own research. You will find that Barabas had differences with Paul and refused to go with him anymore. Same with Silas. I don't have the time now to find this, but will do it when I can.

I have done my own research. I'm trying to find out why you believe what you do.

On such a serious matter, there needs to be more evidence and certainty than what you are telling me. For instance, what specific verses and evidence are you basing your conclusions on? Can you show that their differences were of a doctrinal nature? What was Barnabas' and Silas' theologies as opposed to Paul's? And how did those differ, if in any way, from the rest of the Christian church at that time?

[Guest]

I wanted MM to see this. So as usual Rich answered it. If it had been for Rich, MM would have answered.

My way is not the easy wide way. Those that say it dosn't matter what you do, are on the wide path. They say as long as you believe in Jesus, you can't stop sinning anyway, so why try? They believe that they can keep right on sinning until the day Jesus comes, without even a thought of letting the HS perfect their character, they don't even try to stop sinning, or change the way they think, because they don't believe it can be done. They fully believe they will still be excepted in their un-changed condition. Without the robe of righteousness. They are the ones who will not have on the wedding garment when the time comes.

That is not what I believe, and I know that is not what you believe. You are off the road on the other side, in the other ditch. Believing that faith and grace have nothing to do with salvation. That it is all by your own effort, without God's help.

Did you know that God hates the sin of self suffenciency? He Hates that! That's where the children of Israel went wrong. They said: Yes we will do all that God has said. They didn't figure in the grace of God to give them power to do. They said WE will do. That's why they failed.

You have taken self-sufficiency to a whole new level that I have never seen before. You actually believe that you know more than the prophets of God. You believe that you have the wisdom and the authority to discard whole books of the Bible. And to decide which parts are right and which parts are wrong. Now you have even started cutting into the words of Matthew (one of your so called eyewitnesses) saying he is wrong about certain things.

It won't stop there brother. I just watch with amazement, for I have never seen such arrogance mixed with self sufficient falshood.

[Dr. Rich]

You can find the division with Barnabas and John Mark at Acts 15:36-41. I mixed up John Mark with Silas--sorry about that. Silas and Timothy we don't have much information on--but they were the later followers of Paul along with Luke.

But no one knows for sure what caused the division--but scripture said it was 'sharply divided' what ever that meant.

Another thing is we find that the church of Ephesus was against Paul and his teachings there in the last of Acts too. Don't we also find it interesting that Rev. 2:2 has them putting to a test those who called themselves apostles and found them to be false apostles? Perhaps that is the reason why the Ephesus group was against Paul? Who knows for sure?

[John317]

You can find the division with Barnabas and John Mark at Acts 15:36-41. I mixed up John Mark with Silas--sorry about that. Silas and Timothy we don't have much information on--but they were the later followers of Paul along with Luke.

But no one knows for sure what caused the division--but scripture said it was 'sharply divided' what ever that meant.

You say that no one knows what caused the division, but the text you are using to show there was a division tells us what the division was about: Verses 37, 38 say that the division had to do with their not agreeing over whether to take John Mark with them on their missionary journey to visit the churches where they had preached. Acts 13: 13 says that earlier, Mark had "deserted" them in Pamphylia during the middle of a missionary journey. Paul was concerned that Mark was not dependable at that point. Barnabas insisted on taking Mark, however. They had a clear difference of opinion on this question, and both felt sure of being in the right. Neither was willing to "give in" to the other. There's no reason to believe that the difference between Paul and Barnabas was due to a difference in theology.

As far as the significance of the "sharp division" is concerned, the expression means that their disagreement, or contention, over this matter was so sharp that they went their separate ways, Paul taking Silas, and Barnabas taking Mark. The language indicates that they became "incensed," or "heated," over their difference.

What I would like to know is what evidence or reason you have for saying that this separation was "because of Paul's false teachings." (See near the bottom of your post#288997.) Do you have clear evidence-- or are you deciding on the basis of conjecture?

[Twilight]

You can find the division with Barnabas and John Mark at Acts 15:36-41. I mixed up John Mark with Silas--sorry about that. Silas and Timothy we don't have much information on--but they were the later followers of Paul along with Luke.

But no one knows for sure what caused the division--but scripture said it was 'sharply divided' what ever that meant.

Another thing is we find that the church of Ephesus was against Paul and his teachings there in the last of Acts too. Don't we also find it interesting that Rev. 2:2 has them putting to a test those who called themselves apostles and found them to be false apostles? Perhaps that is the reason why the Ephesus group was against Paul? Who knows for sure?

So Dr Rich, answer this question:

If you do not accept the validity of Lukes writings, why are you using them in an argument to prove your point?

One minute you say they are historic (used to validate your argument above).

The next you say they are not historic (denied when they propose anything that counteracts your viewpoint).

This is a position of hypocrisy.

You either accept them or reject them.

Not use or reject when they suit.

That very "spirit of confusion" should give you cause for concern, do you not see the inconsistency in that?

Mark

[phkrause]

pk