There is a spirit in man...

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I would say that is a strong possibility.

But what it is doing whilst it is "working", is the main area of exploration for me at the moment.

Mark :-)[/quote'] Our bodies are like the computer that the hard drive is in. One won't work without the other... but when you put them together, they "work".

So maybe our bodies use our brain primarily to store information "in" our spirit... and our spirit works through our brain. Maybe that's why people can lose large portions of their brains and remain mostly normal...

From what I understand it is as follows:

Fallen man (sinful):

1. Flesh

2. Soul (identity)

3. Spirit

Born again Christian (matured):

1. Spirit

2. Soul (identity)

3. Flesh

So the spirit guides the soul which controls the body in the Born Again believer.

So the spirit may well be imprinted with the character or identity of the soul, but it would be pure speculation on my part on this matter.

Mark :-)

[Ted Oplinger]

The evil beings cannot read your thoughts.

Tagging in late on this thread.

Just gave a Prophecy Seminar talk on this very subject last week.

In my understanding, the "spirit" is the life essence we receive from God that allows us to power this biological machine Christ has given us called a body. Each of ours is unique from God, but no single one has any kind of intellect, consciousness, or emotions associated with it. The Bible is clear that all emotion and thought process stops at death.

Satan never ceases to perpetuate his first lie to Eve: That we can live apart from the Word of God. However, in death, the wicked prove God right: no matter how long they are dead, not a one can resurrect themselves. If their spirits had intellect and emotion, and the power to effect the material world (as televised on "Ghosthunters" and other such shows) then they should be able to hang around for a while, fix their dead bodies, then re-inhabit them to become resurrected apart from God.

Doesn't happen. The dead are powerless to change their state of affairs. This is why the grave is the ultimate prison with no escapees.

As for "spiritual beings"...

Those entities we call "spiritual beings" must be no different from us - they have a body and spirit constituting their soul. Otherwise, they would not be subject to imprisonment or destruction. But the chemistry that comprises their biological make-up must be vastly different from our own, with much different capabilities than our own.

This difference in construction and ability allows them to be capable of taking over a human body. Even so, they cannot read human minds. They can only replace the brain chemistry thoughts of the individual with their own, and so control speech, action, and the thinking process. This leaves the possessed a prisoner within their own mind, unable to control anything of their body - not even the thought processes their brain makes.

It is the ultimate in domination and force exhibited by the demonic over the human.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

The evil beings cannot read your thoughts.

Tagging in late on this thread.

Just gave a Prophecy Seminar talk on this very subject last week.

In my understanding, the "spirit" is the life essence we receive from God that allows us to power this biological machine Christ has given us called a body. Each of ours is unique from God, but no single one has any kind of intellect, consciousness, or emotions associated with it. The Bible is clear that all emotion and thought process stops at death.

Satan never ceases to perpetuate his first lie to Eve: That we can live apart from the Word of God. However, in death, the wicked prove God right: no matter how long they are dead, not a one can resurrect themselves. If their spirits had intellect and emotion, and the power to effect the material world (as televised on "Ghosthunters" and other such shows) then they should be able to hang around for a while, fix their dead bodies, then re-inhabit them to become resurrected apart from God.

Doesn't happen. The dead are powerless to change their state of affairs. This is why the grave is the ultimate prison with no escapees.

As for "spiritual beings"...

Those entities we call "spiritual beings" must be no different from us - they have a body and spirit constituting their soul. Otherwise, they would not be subject to imprisonment or destruction. But the chemistry that comprises their biological make-up must be vastly different from our own, with much different capabilities than our own.

This difference in construction and ability allows them to be capable of taking over a human body. Even so, they cannot read human minds. They can only replace the brain chemistry thoughts of the individual with their own, and so control speech, action, and the thinking process. This leaves the possessed a prisoner within their own mind, unable to control anything of their body - not even the thought processes their brain makes.

It is the ultimate in domination and force exhibited by the demonic over the human.

I have seen this presented many times as the "standard" answer as given by the SDA dictionary.

But I have yet to see it reasoned from scripture.

When I have reasoned this position from scripture, it just does not fit.

I would like someone to explain why the word "spirit" in some senses means breath of God and in others "thoughts and emotions".

Why?

Consider this statement:

Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Now how does "born of the Spirit is spirit." fit into the traditional Adventist view.

Well let us try it:

1. "That which is born of the Spirit is "breath"." <- Does not work, does not make sense.

2. "That which is born of the Spirit is "thoughts and emotion"." <- That again does not work as we already have thoughts and emotions.

I am also unsure how we have come to the place where we can take one word in the Greek and then split it into two meanings so that it "fits" our ideas?

How did we arrive at the conclusion?

I suspect we did not, but rather "inherited" that belief (any thoughts on this appreciated).

Mark :-)

[Guest]

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1Co_2:13.

I think the spirit that Jn 3:6 speaks of is the Holy Spirit. Where does spirit mean Thoughts and emotions?

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1Co 2:14

[wayfinder]

Paul says flesh is wicked, and the Spirit is righteous.

Galatians 5:16-26 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

[Twilight]

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1Co_2:13.

I think the spirit that Jn 3:6 speaks of is the Holy Spirit. Where does spirit mean Thoughts and emotions?

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1Co 2:14

Jn 3:6 states that which is "born" of the Spirit is spirit.

So the Spirit gives "birth", or gives life.

When we consider Genesis, we see in the creation of man that the Spirit created "mans" spirit.

When man was created, his "spirit" was "born".

The born again man also has the same experience, his "spirit" is born again.

Otherwise we would be saying that the Holy Spirit is having "Holy Spirit" babies if we suggest the Holy Spirit gives birth to the Holy Spirit in us.

That cannot be the case as the Holy Spirit is eternal and omnipresent.

But we see that the bible teaches that the Holy Spirit gives us "our" spirit at creation and that model is the basis for our understanding what happens at rebirth.

------------------------

The thoughts and feelings reference is to the traditional view that the "spirit" often means the thoughts and feelings and at other times the Holy Spirit.

Hope that makes sense, your thoughts?

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Paul says flesh is wicked, and the Spirit is righteous.

Galatians 5:16-26 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

He does.

But He also points out that our spirit is led by the Holy Spirit.

Two "spirits" are discussed in Romans 8.

Ours and the Holy Spirit.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Mark :-)

[Ron Lambert]

When we say "spirit," that is a catch-all indicator of a realm beyond what we can perceive with our senses. It can refer to that which enables human life and preserves identity, that God retains after our death, so that He can recombine this spirit with a new body, and thus recreate the original person, and have it actually be the original person, not just a copy with duplicate memories. (See Eccl. 12:7; Ezek 37:10; John 11:44.) Or it can refer to the realm and being of angels, who are invisible to us, and are called by the Bible "spirits." (See Heb. 1:14.) Or it can refer to God Himself, who is said by the Bible to be "a spirit." (See John 4:24.)

In the case of the angels, I suspect we are actually dealing with beings who exist in different dimensions from those we are aware of. This is not as fanciful as it might seem. Many theoretical physicists now believe that there may be as many as nine dimensions (some suggest even more), five above the four we are familiar with (length, bredth, height, time). If angels exist in these upper dimensions, it is hard to say what their actual nature may be like, except that they are normally beyond our perception, and yet they are a part of the physical universe.

[Guest]

That's interesting.

[John317]

I would like someone to explain why the word "spirit" in some senses means breath of God and in others "thoughts and emotions".

Why?

.... I am also unsure how we have come to the place where we can take one word in the Greek and then split it into two meanings so that it "fits" our ideas?

How did we arrive at the conclusion?

I suspect we did not, but rather "inherited" that belief (any thoughts on this appreciated).

When we look at a Hebrew or Greek Lexicon, we find that these words in the original language can mean, or refer to, many different things. Some of those words that are sometimes translated as "spirit" can mean at least 10 different things, and some mean much more than that. So we shouldn't be at all surprised if we find that the same Greek word means more than one thing. We would be in a bad fix, as students of the Bible, if we limited these words to a single meaning. Consider how many English words can mean several different things, and this sometimes causes great problems for people who use English as a second language.

[Aliensanctuary]

A co-worker of Stephan Hawking, I don't recall his name, calculated that there are 11 dimensions, most of them very small pinwheel-shaped configurations, I believe. It's kind of hard to picture that sort of thing. Perhaps there are other time dimensions, also. The closer we look, the more complex the universe becomes.

Down to the atomic level, an atom is mostly space, therefore, so are we. Matter is basically force-fields that look solid enough to us. Perhaps another dimension can occupy the same space that our reality does.

As I see it, being Born Again actually means the transition from our corrupted and diseased old bodies into the new ones, all clones, not of our old bodies, but of children, identical to each other, save for a few fuzzy old memories that will make each one unique. That's why the Redeemed will have to carry ID's around with them, so their overseers will be able to distinguish one from another. Of course, there will be a telepathic form of communication, as Jesus demonstrated while on Earth.

With their memories all but wiped out, the Redeemed will be programmed differently than we are. The ability to behave selfishly or rebel or harm others will no longer exist once they eat the fruit from the Tree of Life and wash up in the River of Life. That's the real baptism. That's the only way to prevent the workers from revolting ever again. There will be pleasures to keep the Redeemed happy enough, possibly from signals beamed from God during meetings.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I would like someone to explain why the word "spirit" in some senses means breath of God and in others "thoughts and emotions".

Why?

.... I am also unsure how we have come to the place where we can take one word in the Greek and then split it into two meanings so that it "fits" our ideas?

How did we arrive at the conclusion?

I suspect we did not, but rather "inherited" that belief (any thoughts on this appreciated).

When we look at a Hebrew or Greek Lexicon, we find that these words in the original language can mean, or refer to, many different things. Some of those words that are sometimes translated as "spirit" can mean at least 10 different things, and some mean much more than that. So we shouldn't be at all surprised if we find that the same Greek word means more than one thing. We would be in a bad fix, as students of the Bible, if we limited these words to a single meaning. Consider how many English words can mean several different things, and this sometimes causes great problems for people who use English as a second language.

My question is this John317:

How have people come to the conclusion that "spirit" means either the "breath" of God or the "thoughts and emotions of man".

Now I know how one word can have many meanings and accept that fully.

But how has it been arrived at here?

It seems to me the "English" understanding of "spirit" has been applied backwards.

Rather that allowing the "Greek" to express itself.

So do we understand the word "spirit" in from Pauls point of view for instance, or do we use "our" understanding of "spirit" and transfer it onto the bible?

This is what I am trying to understand.

How have we come to the conclusion that "spirit" means "thoughts and feeling of man"?

I do not see that in scripture. I see a "spiritual" aspect to man, a "spiritually functioning spirit" being described.

I always seek to take the bible as its own expositor on these issues.

Then the simplest things stop being complicated and become plain.

So no matter how I look at it, the answer keeps coming back the same, God is communing with our "spirit" through His Holy Spirit.

Mark :-)

[BobRyan]

A co-worker of Stephan Hawking, I don't recall his name, calculated that there are 11 dimensions, most of them very small pinwheel-shaped configurations, I believe. It's kind of hard to picture that sort of thing. Perhaps there are other time dimensions, also. The closer we look, the more complex the universe becomes.

Down to the atomic level, an atom is mostly space, therefore, so are we. Matter is basically force-fields that look solid enough to us. Perhaps another dimension can occupy the same space that our reality does.

As I see it, being Born Again actually means the transition from our corrupted and diseased old bodies into the new ones, all clones, not of our old bodies, but of children, identical to each other, save for a few fuzzy old memories that will make each one unique.

[BobRyan]

When we say "spirit," that is a catch-all indicator of a realm beyond what we can perceive with our senses. It can refer to that which enables human life and preserves identity, that God retains after our death, so that He can recombine this spirit with a new body, and thus recreate the original person, and have it actually be the original person, not just a copy with duplicate memories. (See Eccl. 12:7; Ezek 37:10; John 11:44.) Or it can refer to the realm and being of angels, who are invisible to us, and are called by the Bible "spirits." (See Heb. 1:14.) Or it can refer to God Himself, who is said by the Bible to be "a spirit." (See John 4:24.)

In the case of the angels, I suspect we are actually dealing with beings who exist in different dimensions from those we are aware of. This is not as fanciful as it might seem. Many theoretical physicists now believe that there may be as many as nine dimensions (some suggest even more), five above the four we are familiar with (length, bredth, height, time). If angels exist in these upper dimensions, it is hard to say what their actual nature may be like, except that they are normally beyond our perception, and yet they are a part of the physical universe.

Agreed - they have an ability to change form and pass through solid material, as well as travel quickly through the universe - that we do not have.

I also agree that the term "spirit" has meaning meanings in scripture depenending on context.

In Matt 10:27 stating that in THIS life man can "kill the body but not the soul" and that the soul can only be destroyed by the lake of fire - 2nd death Matt 10:28 - works to assure us that it is the "SAME" person that goes to heaven -- even if they have a NEW body.

Paul makes this point in 1Cor 15 -- he argues that you do NOT take this body to heaven. This is also argued in 2Cor 5.

IF we limit the term "soul" to body-+-spirit then

1. a DIFFERENT body by definition is a "different soul". A huge problem.

2. Killing the body IS killing the soul! A huge problem for Matt 10.

in Christ,

Bob

[Guest]

Good point Bob.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Ron Lambert

When we say "spirit," that is a catch-all indicator of a realm beyond what we can perceive with our senses. It can refer to that which enables human life and preserves identity, that God retains after our death, so that He can recombine this spirit with a new body, and thus recreate the original person, and have it actually be the original person, not just a copy with duplicate memories. (See Eccl. 12:7; Ezek 37:10; John 11:44.) Or it can refer to the realm and being of angels, who are invisible to us, and are called by the Bible "spirits." (See Heb. 1:14.) Or it can refer to God Himself, who is said by the Bible to be "a spirit." (See John 4:24.)

In the case of the angels, I suspect we are actually dealing with beings who exist in different dimensions from those we are aware of. This is not as fanciful as it might seem. Many theoretical physicists now believe that there may be as many as nine dimensions (some suggest even more), five above the four we are familiar with (length, bredth, height, time). If angels exist in these upper dimensions, it is hard to say what their actual nature may be like, except that they are normally beyond our perception, and yet they are a part of the physical universe.

Agreed - they have an ability to change form and pass through solid material, as well as travel quickly through the universe - that we do not have.

I also agree that the term "spirit" has meaning meanings in scripture depenending on context.

In Matt 10:27 stating that in THIS life man can "kill the body but not the soul" and that the soul can only be destroyed by the lake of fire - 2nd death Matt 10:28 - works to assure us that it is the "SAME" person that goes to heaven -- even if they have a NEW body.

Paul makes this point in 1Cor 15 -- he argues that you do NOT take this body to heaven. This is also argued in 2Cor 5.

IF we limit the term "soul" to body-+-spirit then

1. a DIFFERENT body by definition is a "different soul". A huge problem.

2. Killing the body IS killing the soul! A huge problem for Matt 10.

in Christ,

Bob

But isn't the "soul" the individuals personality in one sense?

Or a way of describing the "living person" in another?

Bob is a soul.

Mark is a soul.

Richard is a soul.

Etc...

The "soul" is not the same as "spirit" in the bible.

The "soul" is a creation when "body" and "spirit" united at creation.

It is the "invidual".

This is my current understanding.

Mark

[Guest]

That's why the Redeemed will have to carry ID's around with them, so their overseers will be able to distinguish one from another.

God has infinite knowledge of all things, and is perfect in every way. How perfect would God be if we needed to carry name tags or IDs so he could tell us apart? He would be no greater than an ordinary man. Same goes for the angels, some of which have been with you your whole life.

Just because our brain is little and cannot know very much, is no reason to think that God is the same as we are.

Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore, you are of more value than many sparrows. Mat 10:29-31

If he knows each hair of your head, I think he can remember your name and your face.

And if he were going to make clones out of us he wouldn't have needed to let sin carry on for six thousand years. That's the very reason why he didn't destroy Satan when he first sinned, because he didn't want a bunch of clones or robots who served him without having a choice.

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

No mention of name tags here. To bring God down to a human level is disrespectful and short sighted.

[Aliensanctuary]

Quote:

Rev 2:17

To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.

Or, maybe this Secret Name is just a password to allow or prevent access to certain areas.

EGW did say that the Redeemed would bear the image of Jesus, hence, "clones" that all look alike. Jesus also said that anyone wishing to enter his Kingdom must become as little children. Those who choose to serve the LORD as their master are choosing to be his servants, forever, when they immerse themselves in the River of Life and drink of it, and when they eat the fruit from the Tree of Life.

Quote:

To bring God down to a human level is disrespectful and short sighted.

To speak about the Laws of Cause and Effect, which govern the Universe as we know it, is not disrespectful or short sighted. Unless we believe in Magic, the God we have never seen or heard operates under the Laws of Cause and Effect. His actions or abilities may appear to be "miraculous" to us primitives, but that's our problem.

We must take care that we don't blind ourselves to the physics underlying the operations of God, lest the nebulous myths and superstitions we may believe in are discredited, leaving us defenseless.

The reality of the Kingdom of God will surprise most, if not all of us.

[SivartM]

EGW did say that the Redeemed would bear the image of Jesus, hence, "clones" that all look alike. Jesus also said that anyone wishing to enter his Kingdom must become as little children.

Ellen White was talking about character, not that we would all look exactly like Jesus. We're all made in the image of God, yet we don't look alike.

And Jesus was talking about the faith of children.

[Guest]

EGW did say that the Redeemed would bear the image of Jesus, hence, "clones" that all look alike.

Maybe this will help clear it up for you.

The same form will come forth, but it will be free from disease and every defect. It lives again bearing the same individuality of features, so that friend will recognize friend. There is no law of God in nature which shows that God gives back the same identical particles of matter which composed the body before death. God shall give the righteous dead a body that will please Him. {Hvn 40.1}

Our personal identity is preserved in the resurrection, (MS 76, 1900)

We will not be clones.

[Aliensanctuary]

Will conjoined twins still be conjoined in the Kingdom?

[John317]

Will conjoined twins still be conjoined in the Kingdom?

No. Twins are joined in this way due to the tragic effects of sin. In heaven and on the new earth, all effects of sin will be no more. See Rev. 21 and 22. The saved will receive new, perfect, glorified bodies. See 1 Cor. 15.

[John317]

All good and true.

[John317]

A co-worker of Stephan Hawking, I don't recall his name, calculated that there are 11 dimensions, most of them very small pinwheel-shaped configurations, I believe.

I would not be surprised at this. In fact, it is what I believe myself. The angels and the demons are just as real as you and I are, and they also have bodies but they are spirit bodies-- another way of saying they are in a different dimension, and we can only see them when they choose to change their dimension, which God empowers them to do.

Quote:

...Of course, there will be a telepathic form of communication, as Jesus demonstrated while on Earth.

I tend to agree with this somewhat.

Quote:

With their memories all but wiped out, the Redeemed will be programmed differently than we are. The ability to behave selfishly or rebel or harm others will no longer exist once they eat the fruit from the Tree of Life and wash up in the River of Life. That's the real baptism. That's the only way to prevent the workers from revolting ever again. There will be pleasures to keep the Redeemed happy enough, possibly from signals beamed from God during meetings.

I don't believe God makes it impossible for us to revolt. If He wanted to do that, God could save everyone by simply reprogramming us and making us like robots. The death of Christ is actually a guarantee of man's freedom to choose-- forever. God wants freedom in His universe-- not creatures who have no choice except to do what He wants. The universe will never again witness sin and rebellion and death because God allowed everyone to see plainly the horrible results of going against God's way. Without question, His way is best.

[Aliensanctuary]

Another idea on spirit within...

Perhaps our brains contain a "telepathic receptor" area, which in most humans is non-functional. Occasionally, though, someone is able to receive telepathic signals from either the forces of good or the forces of evil. That might explain why demons from another realm were able to access and manipulate or overpower the minds of even small children who did nothing to encourage demonic activity.

Via the Spirit of God, Jesus deactivated this receptor area, granting the victims welcome relief from their cruel tormentors.

Once our telepathic receptor areas are restored, we will hear, loud and clear, the voice of the LORD telling us what to do and where to go, just as the prophets of old did.