Communion

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

Wonderful. I also keep the Sabbath as Jesus said to do. It's a great blessing.

You "keep" the sabbath? Jesus IS the sabbath. Sabbath means rest. The sabbaths as the Jews practiced them were a type and shadow of Jesus Christ. Once we are resting in Him it is demonstrating unbelief to keep a day of the week.

Is there a text saying the fourth commandment no longer applies?

[Haldog]

If you want to live by the ministry of death, have at it, the pharisee's did too, they kept the commandments perfectly too. I chose to obtain my righteousness through the Grace of Jesus Christ who died for me.

[Gerr]

The original was the Passover meal which included eating a whole roasted lamb, including the entrails. I'm sure ellen put a stop to that real quick.

What is surprising to me is that SDA's go through the motions of the communion but I have never once in 40 years ever hear them say why we should eat the unleavened bread. According to Paul in I Cor. 12 that is why many are sick, feeble and die an early death.

Shalom

Can't resist putting a dig on a dead woman, huh?

[Guest]

Paul tells how you are saved. (By grace through faith)

James tells what you will do if you are.

Jas 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, though a man says he has faith, and has not works? can faith save him?

Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

[Gerr]

If you want to live by the ministry of death, have at it, the pharisee's did , they kept the commandments perfectly too. I chose to obtain my righteousness through the Grace of Jesus Christ who died for me.

Isn't it interesting how the enemy of souls has turned a symbol of a ministry to life into a symbol of a ministry of death? Turn the very symbol of that righteousness obtained by faith into a symbol of works? Just like he induced the Israelites to turn the Covenant that was meant to be life into a covenant of death. And just like of old, there are people still swallowing the devils line!!!

"“Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy." Ex 31:13 NIV.

[Guest]

Amen

[Ron Amnsn]

There is no need to follow the Torah because it was ALL fulfilled in Jesus.

I've seen this idea often presented by Christians, but when I search the Scriptures to see if it is true, I find that this idea is contrary to what is written in Scripture. It seems to be part of the baggage inherited from the Roman church.

When the Bereans (Acts 17) tested Paul's teachings, they searched the Old Testament Scriptures to see if Paul's teachings were true, and they found that Paul's teachings agreed with the Old Testament. If Paul's gospel actually included the idea that "There is no need to follow Torah," what passages of Old Testament Scripture did the Bereans find to verify that?

Since your assertion cannot be confirmed in the Old Testament Scriptures (which the Bereans used to test Paul's gospel), we can be fairly certain that the idea that "There is no need to follow Torah" was not a part of Paul's gospel.

And how would you reconcile your assertion with the statement of Jesus where he taught, "Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." ?

[oldsailor29]

Communion bread and wine represents the body and blood of Jesus. Eating the body and drinking the blood of Jesus means reading, studying, and taking to heart His teachings. We have not been doing that nearly enough.

A good project for communion Sabbath would be to start with the sermon on the mount, and go through from there, reading all of the teachings of Jesus. In that way, we would truly be eating His flesh and drinking His blood the way He meant for us to do.

[Ron Amnsn]

There is no need to follow the Torah because it was ALL fulfilled in Jesus.

In English the word fulfilled can be understood in two distinct ways.

For example, when a person fulfills a mortgage contract, it is completely finished and the mortgage document can then be destroyed. That is the meaning that you (and many Christians) wish to apply to what Jesus did in relation to the Law of Moses.

On the other hand, a marriage covenant is fulfilled one day at a time through faithful day-by-day living. After a person perfectly fulfills his marriage covenant for a day, a month, or a decade, they are not free at that time to destroy the marriage because they have fulfilled it all. The marriage covenant still needs to be fulfilled each and every day. This is what Jesus meant when he said that he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. This is the meaning of fulfill that is used in Scripture.

God's covenant with Israel was not a mortgage contract that ended when Messiah came and died for the nation of Israel. It was a betrothal covenant. The marriage of the Lamb has yet to take place.

[oldsailor29]

I think Jesus fulfilled the covenant in both senses. He fulfilled it like a mortgage contract, and discarded the misinterpretation of Moses, the interpretation which we have accepted. And Jesus fulfilled the covenant like a marriage contract, with His correct interpretation, which we can follow only if we follow Him.

[Twilight]

Communion bread and wine represents the body and blood of Jesus. Eating the body and drinking the blood of Jesus means reading, studying, and taking to heart His teachings. We have not been doing that nearly enough.

A good project for communion Sabbath would be to start with the sermon on the mount, and go through from there, reading all of the teachings of Jesus. In that way, we would truly be eating His flesh and drinking His blood the way He meant for us to do.

Could I just share some thoughts oldsailor?

If you look at the sanctuary you can see some interesting things:

The only way to enter in was by the "blood" of Christ.

By the "merits" of Christ.

So to drink the wine is accepting and imbibing Christs merit in place of our own lack of merit.

When you then enter the Holy Place, by the blood of the lamb, you will find the bread (bible study), the candles (illumination of the Holy Spirit) and the table of incenses (continual communion with God).

It is these that enable us to receive the presence of God within our hearts.

God enters "our" Most Holy Place and abides within based on our entrance into the Holy Place by the blood of Christ.

This should be the goal of every Christian.

So the blood is not indicative of bible study.

This is my understanding. :-)

Mark

[Gerr]

I think Jesus fulfilled the covenant in both senses. He fulfilled it like a mortgage contract, and discarded the misinterpretation of Moses, the interpretation which we have accepted. And Jesus fulfilled the covenant like a marriage contract, with His correct interpretation, which we can follow only if we follow Him.

MISINTERPRETATION by Moses? Are you kidding? The man with whom God talked with face to face? And talk with without visions or riddles?

[olger]

I personally think that communion would mean more to our people if it was an annual or bi-annual event.

g

[oldsailor29]

Could I just share some thoughts oldsailor?

If you look at the sanctuary you can see some interesting things:

The only way to enter in was by the "blood" of Christ.

By the "merits" of Christ.

So to drink the wine is accepting and imbibing Christs merit in place of our own lack of merit.

When you then enter the Holy Place, by the blood of the lamb, you will find the bread (bible study), the candles (illumination of the Holy Spirit) and the table of incenses (continual communion with God).

It is these that enable us to receive the presence of God within our hearts.

God enters "our" Most Holy Place and abides within based on our entrance into the Holy Place by the blood of Christ.

This should be the goal of every Christian.

So the blood is not indicative of bible study.

This is my understanding. :-)

Mark

Mark - I like what you have said. And I think it is right to partake in that which is real rather than just the symbols.

[Guest]

I think Jesus fulfilled the covenant in both senses. He fulfilled it like a mortgage contract, and discarded the misinterpretation of Moses, the interpretation which we have accepted. And Jesus fulfilled the covenant like a marriage contract, with His correct interpretation, which we can follow only if we follow Him.

Who misinterpreted Moses? I know Moses didn't misinterpret anything, because God told him what to write.

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: oldsailor29

I think Jesus fulfilled the covenant in both senses. He fulfilled it like a mortgage contract, and discarded the misinterpretation of Moses, the interpretation which we have accepted. And Jesus fulfilled the covenant like a marriage contract, with His correct interpretation, which we can follow only if we follow Him.

Who misinterpreted Moses? I know Moses didn't misinterpret anything, because God told him what to write.

Perhaps he means all those pointless stupid laws the children of Israel came up with. (And no, I'm not talking about the 10 commandments.)

[Guest]

Could be.

[oldsailor29]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Who misinterpreted Moses? I know Moses didn't misinterpret anything, because God told him what to write. [/quote']

Perhaps he means all those pointless stupid laws the children of Israel came up with. (And no, I'm not talking about the 10 commandments.)

Moses is credited with writing lots of things he didn't write. Moses was a Yahwhist, perhaps the original Yahwhist, and I don't believe he wrote any of the Elohist documents. And I'm fairly certain Moses did not write anything after he died. And God did not give Moses the words to write, except for the ten words he carved on the stone plates. And Moses didn't make mistakes? How about the time he struck the rock instead of speaking? Moses did misinterpret some things, and we misinterpret Moses, just like the priests of the Davidic kingdom and just like the pharisees. And the important thing for us is that we misinterpret the Old Testament.

The only safe scriptures for us are the things God spoke to His disciples, which the Holy Spirit helped them to recall, and helped the other New Testament writers recall, that which is printed in red in many New Testaments. Jesus says, no one comes to the father but by me. People who do not believe this need to read those quotations over and over again and again, until they do believe.

[Gerr]

And how do you determine which part he did or did not write? I take it that you believe those same scholars that came up with the theory that Genesis or the whole Torah were redacted from different traditions? Same scholars that came up with a two Isaiahs? Same scholars who don't believe that Jonah's account was not a historical fact? Same scholars who do/did not believe in the incarnation?

[Gerr]

The only safe scriptures for us are the things God spoke to His disciples, which the Holy Spirit helped them to recall, and helped the other New Testament writers recall, that which is printed in red in many New Testaments. Jesus says, no one comes to the father but by me. People who do not believe this need to read those quotations over and over again and again, until they do believe.

And you can believe whatthe gospel writers claimed Jesus supposedly said, but cannot believe what the OT prophets claimed God to have said?

[Gerr]

Quote:

Perhaps he means all those pointless stupid laws the children of Israel came up with. (And no, I'm not talking about the 10 commandments.)

And those "pointless stupid laws" are? And since the 10c are bundled right along with the other laws, how do you know the 10c are not among those "pointless stupid laws?"

[phkrause]

I definitely agree with you Olger on that. I think it should be once a year.

pk

[Ron Amnsn]

Yes, "communion" should happen once each year at Passover as instructed by Moses and exemplified by Jesus.

[John317]

Moses is credited with writing lots of things he didn't write. Moses was a Yahwhist, perhaps the original Yahwhist, and I don't believe he wrote any of the Elohist documents. And I'm fairly certain Moses did not write anything after he died. And God did not give Moses the words to write, except for the ten words he carved on the stone plates. And Moses didn't make mistakes? How about the time he struck the rock instead of speaking? Moses did misinterpret some things, and we misinterpret Moses, just like the priests of the Davidic kingdom and just like the pharisees. And the important thing for us is that we misinterpret the Old Testament.

The only safe scriptures for us are the things God spoke to His disciples, which the Holy Spirit helped them to recall, and helped the other New Testament writers recall, that which is printed in red in many New Testaments. Jesus says, no one comes to the father but by me. People who do not believe this need to read those quotations over and over again and again, until they do believe.

Selected Messages Book 1 (1958), page 23, paragraph 1

Chapter Title: The Inspiration of the Prophetic Writers

No Man to Pronounce Judgment on

God's Word

Both in the [battle Creek] Tabernacle and in the college the subject of inspiration has been taught, and finite men have taken it upon themselves to say that some things in the Scriptures were inspired and some were not. I was shown that the Lord did not inspire the articles on inspiration published in the Review, [REFERENCE HERE IS TO A SERIES OF ARTICLES THE WRITER OF WHICH ADVOCATED THAT THERE WERE "DIFFERENCES IN DEGREES" OF INSPIRATION. SEE THE REVIEW AND HERALD, JAN. 15, 1884.--COMPILERS.] neither did He approve their endorsement before our youth in the college. When men venture to criticize the Word of God, they venture on sacred, holy ground, and had better fear and tremble and hide their wisdom as foolishness. God sets no man to pronounce judgment on His Word, selecting some things as inspired and discrediting others as uninspired. The testimonies have been treated in the same way; but God is not in this.--Letter 22, 1889.

[phkrause]

That would be nice.

pk