Communion

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Perhaps he means all those pointless stupid laws the children of Israel came up with. (And no, I'm not talking about the 10 commandments.)

And those "pointless stupid laws" are? And since the 10c are bundled right along with the other laws, how do you know the 10c are not among those "pointless stupid laws?"

All of those laws that made living miserable. That put them into bondage. Yes, they were pointless. All God wanted was:

"'Come now, and let us reason together' says the Lord. 'Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool.'"(Isaiah 1:18) There was a reason why Jesus said to the Pharisees. "But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."(Matthew 9:13)

Oh, I also know the Ten Commandments aren't included because they are summed up into two commands that Jesus gave. Love God, and love your neighbour. Not to mention you will find them all scattered around the New Testament.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Quote:

Perhaps he means all those pointless stupid laws the children of Israel came up with. (And no, I'm not talking about the 10 commandments.)

And those "pointless stupid laws" are? And since the 10c are bundled right along with the other laws, how do you know the 10c are not among those "pointless stupid laws?"

All of those laws that made living miserable. That put them into bondage. Yes, they were pointless.

Oh, pointless & miserable laws like these?

When you buy a Hewbrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the 7th he shall go free? Ex 21:2?

Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death. Ex 21:13?

When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. Ex 21:20?

When an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eatan, but the owner of the ox shall not be liable. But if the ox has been accustomed to gore in the past, and its owner has been warned but has not kept it in, and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned, and its owner also shall be put to death. If a ransom is imposed on him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life...Ex 21:28,29?

When a man opens a pit, or when a man digs a pit and does not cover it, and an ox or a donkey falls into it, the owner of the pit shall make restoration... Ex 21:33?

All pointless, huh?

[Haldog]

They must have really hated all those feast days too, just like we dread Thanksgiving.

Jesus said that Moses wrote the Torah and I take His Word for it. People who say Moses didn't write all of it don't believe the Word or Jesus. I consider them the same as those who say they are Jews but aren't.

[oldsailor29]

Selected Messages Book 1 (1958), page 23, paragraph 1

Chapter Title: The Inspiration of the Prophetic Writers

No Man to Pronounce Judgment on

God's Word

Both in the [battle Creek] Tabernacle and in the college the subject of inspiration has been taught, and finite men have taken it upon themselves to say that some things in the Scriptures were inspired and some were not. I was shown that the Lord did not inspire the articles on inspiration published in the Review, [REFERENCE HERE IS TO A SERIES OF ARTICLES THE WRITER OF WHICH ADVOCATED THAT THERE WERE "DIFFERENCES IN DEGREES" OF INSPIRATION. SEE THE REVIEW AND HERALD, JAN. 15, 1884.--COMPILERS.] neither did He approve their endorsement before our youth in the college. When men venture to criticize the Word of God, they venture on sacred, holy ground, and had better fear and tremble and hide their wisdom as foolishness. God sets no man to pronounce judgment on His Word, selecting some things as inspired and discrediting others as uninspired. The testimonies have been treated in the same way; but God is not in this.--Letter 22, 1889.

And I see some people misinterpret Sister White.

[Tom Wetmore]

I would urge more frequent communion than once a year or even just once every 3 months as I suggested in my letter to the editors of the Adventist Review:

Quote:

Gerald Klingbeil’s two part “Table Talk” articles (August 20 and September 17) confirmed what I feel should be an essential element of the celebration of the Lord’s Supper. Communion and Community share more than a common word history. (Notice the apropos richness of the meaning of their respective endings – union and unity...) It would seem that we ought to leave the Lord’s Supper completely satisfied in the fullest sense of the Biblical meaning of breaking bread together. Our hunger for community, just as our physical hunger, needs more than the ritual of a thimble full of grape juice and a tiny bland wafer 4 times a year. Just as our bodies need daily bread, our hearts need daily communion not just with our Creator, but also with each other. It seems to me that the fully satisfying real meal context of Jesus’ instruction, “As often as you do this, remember me” has that intended implication of a daily reminder of our need. Saying grace with each shared meal seems a more apt response to that instruction and in keeping with his prayer for the grace of unity offered at the close of the Last Supper with his disciples as recorded in John 17.

Tom

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

All of those laws that made living miserable. That put them into bondage. Yes, they were pointless. [/quote']

Oh, pointless & miserable laws like these?

When you buy a Hewbrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the 7th he shall go free? Ex 21:2?

Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death. Ex 21:13?

When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. Ex 21:20?

When an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eatan, but the owner of the ox shall not be liable. But if the ox has been accustomed to gore in the past, and its owner has been warned but has not kept it in, and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned, and its owner also shall be put to death. If a ransom is imposed on him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life...Ex 21:28,29?

When a man opens a pit, or when a man digs a pit and does not cover it, and an ox or a donkey falls into it, the owner of the pit shall make restoration... Ex 21:33?

All pointless, huh?

Or when a guy carries some wood on the Sabbath, put him to death! How many times was Jesus watched for just the moment when He broke one of those stupid laws...Oh no He didn't wash His hands before He started eating...

Gerry, I think perhaps you should "go and see what this means...I desire mercy and not sacrifice."

Oh no lets sit here and wait to see if Jesus is going to heal someone on the Sabbath! It is against the LAW!!!

Jesus rebuked those stupid laws and had to say "But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless."(Matthew 12:7)

Let me add that they would not have needed any of those laws had they just allowed God to write His laws onto their hearts. Had they came to Him and said "I have a problem God, I'm addicted to doing this, I love doing it and I need your help to change my views" (Come let us reason together) That is what God means when He says I desire mercy and not sacrifice. So yes, when I call those laws pointless I do so with that perspective. They were under a system of works, instead of a faith in Him.

[Lutz13]

They must have really hated all those feast days too, just like we dread Thanksgiving.

Jesus said that Moses wrote the Torah and I take His Word for it. People who say Moses didn't write all of it don't believe the Word or Jesus. I consider them the same as those who say they are Jews but aren't.

I dread Thanksgiving....It is the one time of the year that I eat until I hurt...

[Twilight]

Or when a guy carries some wood on the Sabbath, put him to death!

That incident Lutz, has to be read in the context of the situation. :-)

The incident with the man gathering sticks, was more than just a man picking up a stick.

It was during a period of apostasy and was a manifestation of open rebellion.

The Isrealites had just failed of entering the promised land and the discontent in the camp was at its highest.

This man deliberately disobeyed God in an open and direct manner.

If God had allowed that rebellion to go unpunished Isreal would have probably been completely lost, as open rebellion would have been a "sin" they could get away with.

Sometimes we do not see the severity and depth of sin, therefore Gods acts seem strange to us. :-)

Mark

[Gerr]

Oh, pointless & miserable laws like these?

When you buy a Hewbrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the 7th he shall go free? Ex 21:2?

Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death. Ex 21:13?

When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. Ex 21:20?

When an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eatan, but the owner of the ox shall not be liable. But if the ox has been accustomed to gore in the past, and its owner has been warned but has not kept it in, and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned, and its owner also shall be put to death. If a ransom is imposed on him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life...Ex 21:28,29?

When a man opens a pit, or when a man digs a pit and does not cover it, and an ox or a donkey falls into it, the owner of the pit shall make restoration... Ex 21:33?

All pointless, huh?

Or when a guy carries some wood on the Sabbath, put him to death! How many times was Jesus watched for just the moment when He broke one of those stupid laws...Oh no He didn't wash His hands before He started eating...

Gerry, I think perhaps you should "go and see what this means...I desire mercy and not sacrifice."

Oh no lets sit here and wait to see if Jesus is going to heal someone on the Sabbath! It is against the LAW!!!

Jesus rebuked those stupid laws and had to say "But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless."(Matthew 12:7)

And was the man gathering sticks on the Sabbath in the face of an explicit command "guiltless?"

Quote:

Let me add that they would not have needed any of those laws had they just allowed God to write His laws onto their hearts. Had they came to Him and said "I have a problem God, I'm addicted to doing this, I love doing it and I need your help to change my views" (Come let us reason together) That is what God means when He says I desire mercy and not sacrifice. So yes, when I call those laws pointless I do so with that perspective. They were under a system of works, instead of a faith in Him.

Did God change from the OT to the NT?

As for the man gathering sticks on the Sabbath and got stoned for flouting what God said and sinning with a "high hand", here is what the same God had to say in the NT:

"26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace." Heb 8:26-31 ESV.

[Ron Amnsn]

Or when a guy carries some wood on the Sabbath, put him to death! How many times was Jesus watched for just the moment when He broke one of those stupid laws...Oh no He didn't wash His hands before He started eating...

Gerry, I think perhaps you should "go and see what this means...I desire mercy and not sacrifice."

Oh no lets sit here and wait to see if Jesus is going to heal someone on the Sabbath! It is against the LAW!!!

Jesus rebuked those stupid laws and had to say "But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless."(Matthew 12:7)

Let me add that they would not have needed any of those laws had they just allowed God to write His laws onto their hearts. Had they came to Him and said "I have a problem God, I'm addicted to doing this, I love doing it and I need your help to change my views" (Come let us reason together) That is what God means when He says I desire mercy and not sacrifice. So yes, when I call those laws pointless I do so with that perspective. They were under a system of works, instead of a faith in Him.

Many people get mixed up between the Law of Moses which is written in Scripture, and the man-made oral laws of the Jews that were burdensome. There is nothing in the Law of Moses that prevents healing on Sabbath. There is nothing in the Law of Moses that requires ritual handwashing before eating. There is nothing in the Law of Moses that prevents a righteous person from eating with sinners or Gentiles. Those were man-made traditions. Jesus did not break the Law of Moses. (If he had he would have been a sinner like the rest of us.) Jesus did break some of the man-made religious laws of the Jews.

There is only one recorded case of a person being killed for working on Sabbath (gathering wood in Numbers 15). In that case, it was YHWH himself who specified that the man should be stoned by the congregation. The law that was broken was the fourth commandment. Scripture tells us that God's law is perfect and that God is a righteous judge, but your comments about this incident make it sound like you think there was something wrong with God's righteous judgment, or something wrong with the fourth commandment that was broken.

Are you really intending to find fault with God's judgment and with his Law?

[Ron Amnsn]

Oh, I also know the Ten Commandments aren't included because they are summed up into two commands that Jesus gave. Love God, and love your neighbour.

Those two greatest commandments that Jesus gave were quoted from the commandments of Law of Moses.

• Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. (Deut 6:4-5)
• You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18)

Jesus didn't say that those two commandments replaced the Law of Moses, but that all the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments. Those two greatest commandments from the Law of Moses are like the wooden rods around which the scrolls of the Law and the Prophets are wound.

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

Oh, I also know the Ten Commandments aren't included because they are summed up into two commands that Jesus gave. Love God, and love your neighbour.

Those two greatest commandments that Jesus gave were quoted from the commandments of Law of Moses.

• Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. (Deut 6:4-5)
• You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18)

Jesus didn't say that those two commandments replaced the Law of Moses, but that all the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments. Those two greatest commandments from the Law of Moses are like the wooden rods around which the scrolls of the Law and the Prophets are wound.

Ah, never mind. I will avoid an argument with the both of you. I concede you both win!

God be with both of you...

[Gerr]

FYI, I am not interested in winning an argument as being flabbergasted about how a fallen human being can presume to call the words of the Most High God "stupid & pointless!!!"

[jasd]

QR frame:

Several observatons.

It is my humble opinion that the congregation too seldom partakes of the blood and body of its Saviour in communion.

...aww gee, Wetmore did it better, so – that sucking sound you hear is

my observations re communion being aborted. Anyway, indeed,

a tot of juice and half a wheat thin – does reflect a sort of stingy testimony to one’s partaking of the blood and body of Jesus Christ.

Weren’t the Jews keeping the commandments – to the point where Jesus Christ commented upon their diligence? yet Gd desolated them. Seemingly, their problems did not stem from lack of law-keeping.

‘Stupid OT laws’. I like the one where I can hire an avenger to get even...

Lastly, entrails, umm, umm, umm. Liver, heart, kidney, and tripe. Fersure y’alls ain not never had liver and caramelized onions, kidney pie, menudo, etc. Pardon my drool.

[Gerr]

Quote:

a tot of juice and half a wheat thin – does reflect a sort of stingy testimony to one’s partaking of the blood and body of Jesus Christ.

I usually grab 2-3 wafers during communion. Surreptitiously, of course!!! I can't do that with the juice because I would have to use both hands to get two small glasses, whereas I could use just one hand to take 2,3, or more wafers.

We held a communion service once on a Friday evening and had an actual dinner!

[jasd]

>>I usually grab 2-3 wafers during communion.<<

Ya gotta love a right-thinking person.

>>Surreptitiously, of course!!!<<

Like 3-card Monty.

>>I can't do that with the juice because I would have to use both hands to get two small glasses,<<

Well, you'll have to BYOB.

>>We held a communion service once on a Friday evening and had an actual dinner!<<

Now, that's Biblical! Substance rather than form...

[Aliensanctuary]

Passover Feasts were originally, I believe, pretty much a family matter. If one lamb was too much for one family, they shared it with their next door neighbors in order to minimize the amount of wasted meat.

I don't believe the people of Israel in Moses' day got together in large numbers in large buildings for the Feast of Passover, eating barbecued lamb guts until they puked. For sure they didn't eat a few cracker crumbs and down a tiny little shot of grape juice, pretending they were having a feast.

Communion, as we experience it, is just another man-made ritual, created by man-made churches, denominations, and religions.

[jasd]

>>I don't believe the people of Israel in Moses' day got together in large numbers in large buildings for the Feast of Passover,<<

Indeed, it is doubtful that any of the slaves had access to a building large enough to hold an entire congregation. Probably, the best they had were small hovels.

>>...eating barbecued lamb guts until they puked.<<

I believe the operable term would be – roasted. Guts? I suspect that - being slaves - they wasted little that might sustain them; if they chose to waste the most nutritious parts of the meal - they were both ignorant and didn’t know what they were missing. Indeed, it seems

they did puke - however, it was later and it was fowl; otherwise, it is speculation to forward – puking.

>>For sure they didn't eat a few cracker crumbs and down a tiny little shot of grape juice, pretending they were having a feast.

Communion, as we experience it, is just another man-made ritual, created by man-made churches, denominations, and religions.<<

Succinctly put. Jesus Christ left us the example of a communion meal – and the thought contained in the following...

1 Cor 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1 Cor 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

1 Cor 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

indicates that the body of Jesus Christ errs to “shew the Lord’s death...” so seldom.

[Gerr]

Recall that there are/were 3 major feasts in which the males were required to attend in Jerusalem, one of which was the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

[FLO]

Yeah, I think that communion should be observed once a year (it's a memorial of Jesus' death) and on the correct date (ie. Passover).

The memorial for 9/11 is on September 11th. It makes sense because that's the date it happened. Why not remember Jesus' death on the day he died? Everyone knows He died at Passover, yet no really cares what day Passover is each year. Sometimes Easter and Passover are an entire month apart. Yet during Easter weekend almost every sermon is on Jesus' death.

Communion really should be held every year at Passover, that's when Jesus had it with his disciples. I did some research on this topic and I found out that the early Christian church observed Passover and it was their once-a-year communion service. Then Constantine came along and changed the Sabbath to Sunday and Passover to Easter. Don't believe me, check it out for yourself:

http://www.EasterTruth.info

[Guest]

Makes sense to me.

[Aliensanctuary]

It might be considered an insult, remembering someone as important as the Messiah with shot glass of juice and a small piece of cracker. In the next life there will be feasts and celebrations with tables piled high. We should hope to receive more honor than we give.

Our pathetic and unrecognizable observance of Passover is an indicator of the loss of direction in the institutions that control our beliefs. It’s OK to create any number of holy communions, complete with grape juice and crackers and washing feet that usually aren’t even dirty, maybe sometimes a little stinky, but these are all man-made rituals destined for the rubbish heap.

[jasd]

QR frame:

1 Cor 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

Seems to me that Biblical exhortation is - as often - you do show the Lord's death.

Sure, we celebrate Easter/Pasch once a year; however, Writ exhorts us to 'commune' often. I think that

the .Org errs to subscribe to the canard that to celebrate it more often would be emulating Catholicism's celebration of Mass - that 'ever-recrucifying the Lord' dogma.

[Gerr]

It might be considered an insult, remembering someone as important as the Messiah with shot glass of juice and a small piece of cracker. In the next life there will be feasts and celebrations with tables piled high. We should hope to receive more honor than we give.

Oh, and having a full dinner would give more honor and be more meaningful?

Quote:

Our pathetic and unrecognizable observance of Passover is an indicator of the loss of direction in the institutions that control our beliefs. It’s OK to create any number of holy communions, complete with grape juice and crackers and washing feet that usually aren’t even dirty, maybe sometimes a little stinky, but these are all man-made rituals destined for the rubbish heap.

And the Communion service that was instituted by the Lord himself is a "man-made ritual destined for the rubbish heap?"

[Haldog]

Paul reminded us in I Cor. 11 that we must discern the Lord's body. That is the important thing. The ritual is merely the reminder, the quantity of food and drink is not important whatsoever.