"In Christ" what does that mean?

[Steve Billiter]

Poster: pnattmbtc

No, what Steve wrote was very poorly put. I'm not saying this because Steve is voicing an opinion contrary to mine, but because he did so simply by innuendo, hearsay, and false or inaccurate statements.

Well now, what did you just tell Norman? Did you not ask him to clearly and concisely reveal what his meaning is? Perhaps you may want to take your own advice instead of speaking about me like you say Norman is doing to you!

You told Norman:

So, in conclusion, please

1.State what it is that you think I am saying that is either inaccurate or incorrect.

2.Provide an actual quote of something I said, with the context.

3.Explain why you think what I wrote is either inaccurate or incorrect.

You said:

No, what Steve wrote was very poorly put. I'm not saying this because Steve is voicing an opinion contrary to mine, but because he did so simply by innuendo, hearsay, and false or inaccurate statements.

Really? You don't say exactly what that is, nor do you offer proof that I am wrong. First you give a "qualifier" by saying:

"I'm not saying this because Steve is voicing an opinion contrary to mine,"

Your'e not? Are you sure? Hmmnnn....Sure doesn't look like it to me! It appears your real issue is the fact that Norman agreed with me, isn't it? Please correct me if I'm wrong!

You also said about John317:

"without making personal attacks,"

Thats true, I agree. But the implication here is that I make personal attacks! Hows that?

Then you also say:

"that he's truly converted, or a Bible student, or cannot possibly be in error"

Well, I am converted, my application to that is not to brag, but to state fact. One has the Holy Spirit to teach he is born again. Admittedly, I made a poor choice of words when I said I cannot be in error. Quite obviously, that was an error! Yep, I got pounded for that one.

What I should have said was that I am on that journey for truth

and that light shines brighter and brighter.

Pro 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shines more and more unto the perfect day.

So Mr.P. what is your answer?

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: John317

[ Those kinds of statements always need to be supported by clear Bible and/or SOP evidence.

So it's up to the moderator's interpretation....No thanks!

Rob

thats getting a bit papal, ?que no? man will decide for another man...we have human history starting with cain and able, Christ being put on a cross, etc., to show us how that goes...

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

?

This made no sense to me. What were you thinking, Mark, if you don't mind my asking. [/quote']

It was not referring to you Pnat. :-)

It was refferring to other posters who display a consistent history of trying to "wind other posters up".

The evidence for this is by accusing Steve of being "pantheistic".

Steve is so "anti-pantheistic", that it is ludicrous that anyone would make such a claim unless they misunderstood him (which is highly unlikely when they are familiar with his views), or they are seeking to "bait" him.

That was the point. :-)

Mark

[teresaq]

At times, when members or church employees blatantly oppose our understanding of this biblical doctrine, the church may have to encourage them to honorably withdraw from its fellowship, or even insist that they do so. To be a Seventh-day Adventist and to remain one requires a belief in this biblical teaching and, at minimum, a respect for the church's conviction that the genuine gift of prophecy was manifested in the life and work of Ellen G. White. When one of its members begins to undermine its teachings, the church should diligently try to win that member back to full agreement with the body of believers or, if this is not possible, take steps to help the person find another denomination whose beliefs are more like his own.

hmmm, so when self-proclaimed converts come into our church they will set themselves up as experts of our doctrines and beliefs and oust the members of the church.

interesting. thanks for sharing the agenda.

[teresaq]

God is not errant, man is.

then why does "man" think his understanding is perfect?

[teresaq]

these kinds of posts only influence the childish and immature among us.

instead of throwing silly accusations around because others understand differently than our "perfect, inerrant" understanding, just calmly state how its understood differently.

unless the object is to dictate how others are to believe.

[pnattmbtc]

Steve, regarding your post #312841, please refer to my post #312567, where I did the things you requested.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Merry Christmas to everyone I hope you have a great time with family and friends. Make one to remember, make it an opportunity to share Jesus.

in Christ and His service,

Norman

[pnattmbtc]

Merry Christmas! Despite the difficult year economically, much to be thankful for.

One of the things I'm thankful for is participating in this forum. I appreciate the sharing of different points of view, and think that being challenged as to one's own understanding is very helpful.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Robert

So it's up to the moderator's interpretation....No thanks!

Rob

thats getting a bit papal' date=' ?que no? man will decide for another man...we have human history starting with cain and able, Christ being put on a cross, etc., to show us how that goes... [/quote']

Interesting point of view. Thanks for sharing this with us.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Steve Billiter

At times, when members or church employees blatantly oppose our understanding of this biblical doctrine, the church may have to encourage them to honorably withdraw from its fellowship, or even insist that they do so. To be a Seventh-day Adventist and to remain one requires a belief in this biblical teaching and, at minimum, a respect for the church's conviction that the genuine gift of prophecy was manifested in the life and work of Ellen G. White. When one of its members begins to undermine its teachings, the church should diligently try to win that member back to full agreement with the body of believers or, if this is not possible, take steps to help the person find another denomination whose beliefs are more like his own.

hmmm, so when self-proclaimed converts come into our church they will set themselves up as experts of our doctrines and beliefs and oust the members of the church.

interesting. thanks for sharing the agenda.

[Steve Billiter]

Thanks Mark, I appreciate you sticking up for me, I hope I can repay the favor. You are familiar with my views so honesty certainly is in play here!

Some poster who has no name used this quote here:

Quote:

"A member of the church should not be excluded from membership because of his inability to recognize clearly the doctrine of spiritual gifts and its application to the second advent movement " The Testimony of Jesus p.141

" There has been a spirit prevailing of contention, of faultfinding, of making little items a test of Christian fellowship" 2MR 120

Its funny, the first quote and the reference are unfamiliar to me. I inserted the entire quote 4 times into my query search tool within my EGW database and came up with nothing every time.

I don't have a book listed by this name either. I typed in The testimony of Jesus in the bibliography and got no hits.

It seems this quote is not a part of the published writings. So its either unpublished, or bogus.

At any rate, Dr. Pipim, is speaking of an all out rejection of the prophet. The above quote seems to say the person is trying but doesn't see it yet. The second quote which looks legit is out of contextactually, they both are. A rejection of the prophet is a little item? Not quite.

Well Mark we certainly see what the faithful are up against in these final days before Jesus comes.The worse attacks on the Lord's prophet come from within by those professing to accept and believe. At this point I doubt the first quote is legitimate, though I cannot be positive; at any rate, both are out of context.

[Steve Billiter]

Originally Posted By: Steve Billiter

At times, when members or church employees blatantly oppose our understanding of this biblical doctrine, the church may have to encourage them to honorably withdraw from its fellowship, or even insist that they do so. To be a Seventh-day Adventist and to remain one requires a belief in this biblical teaching and, at minimum, a respect for the church's conviction that the genuine gift of prophecy was manifested in the life and work of Ellen G. White. When one of its members begins to undermine its teachings, the church should diligently try to win that member back to full agreement with the body of believers or, if this is not possible, take steps to help the person find another denomination whose beliefs are more like his own.

hmmm, so when self-proclaimed converts come into our church they will set themselves up as experts of our doctrines and beliefs and oust the members of the church.

interesting. thanks for sharing the agenda.

It is dishonesty of the highest order to falsely represent the 28 Fundamentals of the SDA church. A person agrees, gives his or her word that should be binding everywhere as to the acceptance of ALL 28, not 27. not 25, it is not multiple choice here.We speak of official membership .Everyone is welcome to come to church as often as they like. However, membership privileges come with the duty to take all the fundamentals as their creed.

"hmmm, so when self-proclaimed converts come into our church they will set themselves up as experts of our doctrines and beliefs and oust the members of the church."

It appears that attacks on the church and its policies are just never ending.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

thats getting a bit papal' date=' ?que no? man will decide for another man...we have human history starting with cain and able, Christ being put on a cross, etc., to show us how that goes... [/quote']

Interesting point of view. Thanks for sharing this with us.

Cute.

[Robert]

Everyone is welcome to come to church as often as they like.

[pnattmbtc]

The author of the quote cited is F. M. Wilcox, former editor of the Review and Herald, that is, this one:

Quote:

A member of the church should not be excluded from membership because of his inability to recognize clearly the doctrine of spiritual gifts and its application to the second advent movement. (The Testimony of Jesus p.141)

[pnattmbtc]

However, membership privileges come with the duty to take all the fundamentals as their creed.

The pioneers of our church were very much opposed to this idea. They didn't want anything to do with creeds, viewing such as a vestige of Catholicism.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Steve

However, membership privileges come with the duty to take all the fundamentals as their creed.

The pioneers of our church were very much opposed to this idea. They didn't want anything to do with creeds, viewing such as a vestige of Catholicism.

Many of these fundamental SDA will make great Catholics one day....Both teach salvation by works....

[Robert]

The pioneers of our church were very much opposed to this idea. They didn't want anything to do with creeds, viewing such as a vestige of Catholicism.

Correct!!!

[teresaq]

However, membership privileges come with the duty to take all the fundamentals as their creed.

[Woody]

The author of the quote cited is F. M. Wilcox, former editor of the Review and Herald, that is, this one:

Quote:

A member of the church should not be excluded from membership because of his inability to recognize clearly the doctrine of spiritual gifts and its application to the second advent movement. (The Testimony of Jesus p.141)

Exactly. Thank you pnattmbtc. My error. It was in my EGW software and I failed to see the author. Thanks for the correction.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

The pioneers of our church were very much opposed to this idea. They didn't want anything to do with creeds, viewing such as a vestige of Catholicism.

Correct!!!

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Steve Billiter

However, membership privileges come with the duty to take all the fundamentals as their creed.

Quote:

BRO. WHITE. I am convinced: not by what the brethren have said: for I was convinced before. I wish to say a word now in favor of the resolution. I prefer that the brethren should be uniform in this thing. This would tend to unity in the church. Let us set a right example here, and let it go out from this meeting. This is one reason why I would vote for this covenant.

On the subject of creeds, I agree with Bro. Loughborough. I never weighed the points which he has presented, as I have since I began to examine the subject for myself. In Eph.iv,11-13, we read, "And he gave some apostles, and some prophets," etc. Here we have the gifts of the church, presented. Now I take the ground that creeds stand in direct opposition to the gifts.

Let us suppose a case: We get up a creed, stating just what we shall believe on this point and the other, and just what we shall do in reference to this thing and that, and say that we will believe the gifts too.

But suppose the Lord, through the gifts, should give us some new light that did not harmonize with our creed;

then, if we remain true to the gifts, it knocks our creed all over at once.

Making a creed is setting the stakes, and barring up the way to all future advancement.

God put the gifts into the church for a good and great object; but men who have got up their churches, have shut up the way or have marked out a course for the Almighty.

They say virtually that the Lord must not do anything further than what has been marked out in the creed.

A creed and the gifts thus stand in direct opposition to each other.

Now what is our position as a people? The Bible is our creed.

We reject everything in the form of a human creed. We take the Bible and the gifts of the Spirit; embracing the faith that thus the Lord will teach us from time to time. And in this we take a position against the formation of a creed. We are not taking one step, in what we are doing, toward becoming Babylon. {October 8, 1861 UrSe, ARSH 149.9}

Quote:

To show that they cannot have their creeds and the gifts too, that creeds shut out the gifts, we will suppose that God, through chosen instruments taken from each sect, begins to show up the errors in the creeds of these different denominations. If they receive the testimony as from heaven, it would spoil their creeds. But would they throw them away and come out on the platform of unity taught by Christ, Paul, and Peter? Never! never! They would a thousand times sooner trample the humble instruments of God's choice into the dust. It is evident that if the gifts were received, they would destroy human creeds, and that if creeds be received, they shut out the gifts. The second angel's message brought the Adventists from the creed-bound churches, where they could be reached by the gifts, be united and prepared for the coming of the Lord. {1862 MEC, MIRP 28.1}

so, brother you stand by your man-made creed.

i will stand with our pioneers.

Excellent. This IS what we need to do. The new theology types that frequent this thread are a fulfillment of prophecy however. We do need to be kind to them ... but error must be shown for what it is. Our prophet foretold that this would happen. And it is now being fulfilled before our very eyes.

[Steve Billiter]

The author of the quote cited is F. M. Wilcox, former editor of the Review and Herald, that is, this one:

Quote:

A member of the church should not be excluded from membership because of his inability to recognize clearly the doctrine of spiritual gifts and its application to the second advent movement. (The Testimony of Jesus p.141)

pnattmbtc

Thanks for that clarification. I thought it was Bogus.

I didn't know Wilcox was a prophet!

Quick definitions (creed)

noun: any system of principles or beliefs

noun: the written body of teachings of a religious body.

Wow! I didn't know the SDA 28 beliefs were Catholic!

Ha ha ha ha ha Ho ho ho ho! Verrrry Funny!

We now have a creed, thats what the 28 beliefs are. Those who don't like this creed, well, I guess they can go elsewhere if so desired.

What is instructive to me is the that the pioneers did not want to be organized prior to 1863, but Ellen White had light from God that well....said we needed a creed,(dare I say it!) we needed to be organized. And thats exactly what happened. In 1863, the 7th Day Adventist prophetic movement formed a "creed" and became organized. So, just a few years ago, our creed was 27 beliefs, now its 28 I think.

We need a creed, otherwise when people are looking for a true church and they say, "Well, whats your creed?" Why we then show them our creedand they see all 28 of the creed are correct and they join the church. praise God for a creed!

[Woody]

Quote:

"it is impossible for me to be in error." Steve Billiter 12-23-09 #312420

It is interesting that the one who claims it is not possible for him to error ... just loves to point out errors in others. I OTOH ... do not make such a claim. So, it is possible for me to error.

Let me leave you with the following:

Quote:

James White stated in the Review and Herald of June 13, 1871:

"They [the Seventh-day Adventists] do not, however, make a belief in this work [Ellen White’s prophetic work] a test of Christian fellowship."